Jesus Camp

Overheal · 31-12-2007 8:58pm #1

Ok I doubt many if any Irish people have caught wind of this documentary made in america called Jesus Camp? Basically, its about evangelical Christians: about actively trying to attempt similarly what Islamics do - by training children from a very young age to be fanatics, willing to die for the cross.

Now, before I continue, I am an atheist, so I am trying to look at this objectively. I remember when i was about 12 and still living in the states I was invited to a halloween party by a friend at his church, and - pretty much yea, the main focus of the party was about signing non-believers up to the church. Reluctant to fill out one of their pledge cards, they pressured me into it and I left discretely

According to Jesus Camp (documentary) - 75% of school children in the USA are evangelists.

"Let me say something about Harry Potter - Warlocks are enemies of god. If it had been in the old testament, Harry would have been put to death!"

Now - theres perhaps just one thing wrong with this statement which I want to challenge Christianity on today:

does God really want [us] to start killing and wage war?
Since when? Because, I got the memo that Christianity was about peace-keeping.

So at this camp, alongside teaching these kids not to turn to sin, and how it can take over their life if they turn to sin they are teaching them its ok to kill people that oppose their belief... particularly Islamics (as most of the children in camp have parents serving in Iraq) ... I find something wrong with that. Teaching a child its ok to let killing Islamics take over their lives?

So I guess the question is: do you believe that we have to turn to killing at all, in order to make 'peace' with Islamics, or any other radical factions that would turn to violence in order to further their faith?

When did God/Jesus ever condone man killing man?

EDIT: cant creationism and evolution just get along!?

BrianCalgary · 31-12-2007 9:59pm

Overheal wrote: »

does God really want [us] to start killing and wage war? !?

No to killing.

We are involved in a spirirual war.

Overheal wrote: »

Since when? Because, I got the memo that Christianity was about peace-keeping.!?

'tis about peacemaking not peace keeping.

Overheal wrote: »

So I guess the question is: do you believe that we have to turn to killing at all, in order to make 'peace' with Islamics, or any other radical factions that would turn to violence in order to further their faith?!?

No we don't. However if a groups or groups is violent then sometimes the only way tpo stop it is through violence.

Was there any other way to stop the holocaust of Germany in the 30's and 40's beyond out and out war?

Overheal wrote: »

When did God/Jesus ever condone man killing man?!?

Only Himself.

Overheal wrote: »

EDIT: cant creationism and evolution just get along!?

Yes they can. I have some Christian friends who will claim that evolution is how God created.

philologos · 31-12-2007 10:06pm

Yes, I've seen it. It's a good insight into some churches in America.

For your second paragraph. I disagree with forcing people or pressuring them into following Christ. However I do support evangelism and for people to get out on the streets and tell people about the Gospel of Christ. That is what Christianity is all about.

God does not want us to wage war. However this is not what was promoted in the documentary either. "Soldiers of God" is used very much in a symbolic manner, it does not mean you pick up a rifle and run into an secular / Jewish / Islamic whatever school or place of worship to murder anybody, or even sign up to war because of that term. If that is the case (not likely, but I'll allow for the possibility), it is a perversion of the Gospel.

Overheal wrote:

So at this camp, alongside teaching these kids not to turn to sin, and how it can take over their life if they turn to sin they are teaching them its ok to kill people that oppose their belief... particularly Islamics (as most of the children in camp have parents serving in Iraq) ... I find something wrong with that. Teaching a child its ok to let killing Islamics take over their lives?

Hang on. When did it mention that all the kids had parents who served in Iraq? This is what I don't understand. As far as I can remember (it was a while ago) this was not mentioned.

Overheal wrote:

So I guess the question is: do you believe that we have to turn to killing at all, in order to make 'peace' with Islamics, or any other radical factions that would turn to violence in order to further their faith?

"Have a turn at killing", that's interesting. But having a turn at killing never ends up in peace. Faith in Christ is not furthered by violating the rules of the Law by which Christ gave us.

If you have seen all of it:

I agree with the guy who runs the radio show, towards the end of it.

It isn't much of a spoiler but I decided to use it anyway ^

Overheal · 01-01-2008 2:57am

it didnt mention it but the ballerina girl near the start of the film is wearing a shirt "My daddy is in the army" and i dont know an serviceman who has not been shipped to Iraq. also, the use of camoflauge at the start of the film at least suggests advocation/support of war by the church group in the film.

PDN · 01-01-2008 11:31am

Overheal wrote: »

it didnt mention it but the ballerina girl near the start of the film is wearing a shirt "My daddy is in the army" and i dont know an serviceman who has not been shipped to Iraq. also, the use of camoflauge at the start of the film at least suggests advocation/support of war by the church group in the film.

What nonsense is this?

One ballerina girl wears a shirt saying "My daddy is in the army" and you use that as a basis for saying, "most of the children in camp have parents serving in Iraq"

Also, the US has about 1.5 million servicemen in total - of which 150,000 are in Iraq. So, instead of saying "most of the children in camp have parents serving in Iraq" - it would have been more accurate to say, "one girl in camp wore a t-shirt that, if correct, indicated that there was a 10% chance that one of her parents might be serving in Iraq).

As for the camouflage - I saw a bunch of teenagers in O'Connell Street yesterday wearing camouflage trousers. Does this mean they were advocating support for a war somewhere?

SubjectSean · 01-01-2008 1:11pm

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the Earth; I have not come to bring peace, but an M4."

Asiaprod · 04-01-2008 2:12pm

SubjectSean wrote: »

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the Earth; I have not come to bring peace, but an M4."

Sorry, the smiley does not cut it. Please do not post such rubbish again, it is against the Charter and will only lead to you getting a one week vacation

Asiaprod · 04-01-2008 2:22pm

Overheal wrote: »

Ok I doubt many if any Irish people have caught wind of this documentary made in america called Jesus Camp? Basically, its about evangelical Christians: about actively trying to attempt similarly what Islamics do - by training children from a very young age to be fanatics, willing to die for the cross.

Those are very strong words. Can you support this fact? Nowhere in any of my study of Islam have I seen any reference to training children in this way. I agree that there are always exceptions to the rule as in the case of fundamentalist groups who are really IMO only out to serve themselves, but blanket statements like this only serve to further mislead what Islam is about. If you cannot support your statement, I would politely suggest you reword your original post.
Thanks.
Asia

SubjectSean · 04-01-2008 4:35pm

Asiaprod wrote: »

Sorry, the smiley does not cut it. Please do not post such rubbish again, it is against the Charter and will only lead to you getting a one week vacation

Smiley does not cut what? Your misunderstanding? My point was that this quote from Jesus may encourage violence in the simple minded. I really don't see how that's against the charter.

Static M.e. · 04-01-2008 4:44pm

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the Earth; I have not come to bring peace, but an M4."

this quote from Jesus

Are you saying "Jesus" said the above?! (M4)

Also an ashiest btw

Sorry just jumped in from the home page, bored at work

SubjectSean · 04-01-2008 4:52pm

Static M.e. wrote: »

Are you saying "Jesus" said the above?!

It's in Matthew 10 and was doubtless put there by a holy warmonger. I updated 'sword' with 'M4'.

Static M.e. · 04-01-2008 4:57pm

Really? Wow.. thats kinda interesting.

Fallen Seraph · 04-01-2008 9:35pm

SubjectSean wrote: »

It's in Matthew 10 and was doubtless put there by a holy warmonger. I updated 'sword' with 'M4'.

In full:

Matthew 10 wrote:

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

It might, however, seem a little less extreme in the context of the next verses:

Matthew 10 wrote:

37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

That said, I still don't *really* get it.

Overheal · 04-01-2008 10:48pm

Asiaprod wrote: »

Those are very strong words. Can you support this fact? Nowhere in any of my study of Islam have I seen any reference to training children in this way. I agree that there are always exceptions to the rule as in the case of fundamentalist groups who are really IMO only out to serve themselves, but blanket statements like this only serve to further mislead what Islam is about. If you cannot support your statement, I would politely suggest you reword your original post.
Thanks.
Asia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

Asiaprod · 05-01-2008 11:11am

Overheal wrote:

youtube]gi-c6lbFGC4

Overheal wrote:

Youtube Video

Thanks, I did indeed watch the video, and watching it a second time makes it no clearer. With the exception of the last song, which noticeably was sung by a "Boy," whom I would expect to see emulating his peers, or maybe, heros even, the rest is nothing extraordinary.

Its been seen in Ireland, and throughout most of the world, with the catholic influence, and in other countries with majority religious bodies' influences, at play in local children's programs, though I will admit, not with quite so much, what would you like to call it, Zeal? Actually, I forgot one, he is also directly related to the video, which primarily deals with the Palestine/Jewish issue, an issue that is not endemic of Islam, but is endemic of that region and its history. His name begins with an H, and he did not like the Jewish race at all. He did similar with the children and he was not Islamic. He used a common tactic to further his cause and reassure, through a brain washed younger generation, that if he should win, no matter the cost, he would have a solid support base. Apply the same tactics to the fundamentalists and you will see where I am coming from.
There was a single reference to Iraq and Bush. So what, I would lay odds that it was required by the financial backers for the video.

Really, thanks for an interesting reply. I am sure you could get a far better answer to this video than mine in another forum I am part of.

Asia

SubjectSean · 05-01-2008 1:13pm

Fallen Seraph wrote: »

That said, I still don't *really* get it.

Me neither, it really makes no sense at all for somebody who clearly turned the other cheek to be saying this. The very early church was totally pacifist. I have this and the carry a sword quote as redactions because of this.

neuro-praxis · 09-01-2008 12:19pm

SubjectSean wrote: »

Me neither, it really makes no sense at all for somebody who clearly turned the other cheek to be saying this. The very early church was totally pacifist. I have this and the carry a sword quote as redactions because of this.

Fantastic! In a thread about a documentary, you get to spout this kind of nonsense? What evidence of the early church have you stumbled upon that shows them to be "totally pacifist". You should really share that with the churches.

Totally pacifist is an anachronism in that context. Stating redactionism without evidence is ironically, nothing more than redactionism. If you don't understand something Jesus said that doesn't mean that he couldn't have said it!

Back on topic.
I do think that the movie is deeply troubling. The leaders involved are I think, comparable in some careful way to Islamofascists. But to the OP, it is important to remember that these people are extraordinarily in the minority. This is not brought out in the documentary that glosses from the fact that the subjects are Pentecostal Christians out to "therefore Penetecostal Christianity as a whole" and then out to "so evangelical Christianity..."

Akrasia · 09-01-2008 3:07pm

I noticed that very few of the evangalists on this thread said that they were opposed to this very disturbing evidence of childhood indoctrination. I consider this kind of activity to be child abuse. The children look highly traumatised

PDN · 09-01-2008 7:03pm

Akrasia wrote: »

I noticed that very few of the evangalists on this thread said that they were opposed to this very disturbing evidence of childhood indoctrination. I consider this kind of activity to be child abuse. The children look highly traumatised

I suppose by 'evangalists' you mean evangelicals? Maybe some of us have not said we are opposed to it because we haven't seen the film in question.

Overheal · 10-01-2008 10:25pm

PDN wrote: »

Maybe some of us have not said we are opposed to it because we haven't seen the film in question.

Trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE

I'll let it speak for itself.

more information available at http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

robindch · 10-01-2008 11:10pm

Some DCMA-busting criminal has kindly uploaded what looks like most of Jesus Camp to YouTube in nine parts. Don't know if all the clips link together.

There's plenty of psychological abuse on show in this film, and the carry-on at the start of part six is as gross as anything else.

The Adoration of the Blessed Bush happens from 3:30 onwards in the same clip.

Akrasia · 11-01-2008 2:01pm

robindch wrote: »

Some DCMA-busting criminal has kindly uploaded what looks like most of Jesus Camp to YouTube in nine parts. Don't know if all the clips link together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c94b1_dx9Q8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS6LwHJz1jk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwPfsE9qcGQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wl_SmHKcPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayO96E4A_fU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgEFSQ4j3ts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZJerZM5ROY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWjUBetFZl0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw16gs9rNmw

There's plenty of psychological abuse on show in this film, and the carry-on at the start of part six is as gross as anything else.

The Adoration of the Blessed Bush happens from 3:30 onwards in the same clip.

There's a more convenient source for the same film on google video. the whole film uninterrupted http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5249911130864255023&hl=en-CA

Akrasia · 11-01-2008 4:01pm

There is one bit on the 36th minute of that video that sums up the damage that this indoctrination does to the children perfectly. A young boy talks about how hard it is to believe in god sometimes, that he doesn't really know him, and sometimes he doesn't believe everything in the bible, and that makes him feel like a faker and guilty and ashamed.

That is coming from a young child. These are children who are pressured and shamed into believing in something, they believe out of fear. They are told that they have to believe or else they'll be taken by satan, it is very very real for these children, the children are terrified of what might happen if they don't do and think exactly as their told.

robindch · 11-01-2008 4:32pm

I watched this with a Russian friend who became quite upset quite a few times during it, saying it was a more severe form of the guilt-tripping, idealogical indoctrination, nationalistic military crapology and blatant psychological abuse that happened to kids from time to time under communism.

That's the power of the meme!

kitt13 · 13-01-2008 5:43pm

Jesus Camp was filmed in Devils Lake (I know, funny, right?), North Dakota. North Dakota is a very rural state with apparently one of the highest number of churches per capita in the States. I have also read it has the highest number of people identifying as Christian. It is in many ways, or was when I was living there which would have been pre-internet, very insular.

Religion was a huge part of our lives. (By "our" I mean those around me in North Dakota.) Even though I grew up in a neighborhood with very educated people as neighbors (doctors, scientists, accounts, etc.) almost everyone went to church. There were lots of Lutherans (keeping in the Scandinavian and German vein) and other smaller less known Protestant denominations. The Catholics tended to go to private schools that taught in the Catholic ethos. Most of the kids in the neighborhood would have gone to bible school in the summer and some even held it at their house. What a way to spend your summer break from school, huh? I recently had to return for my father's funeral and was reminded of how religious everyone was. It was rather jarring but having said that people are really, really nice and helpful.

I just wanted to add the above because I wanted to help put that documentary in some context.

Overheal · 16-01-2008 10:55pm

Akrasia wrote: »

There is one bit on the 36th minute of that video that sums up the damage that this indoctrination does to the children perfectly. A young boy talks about how hard it is to believe in god sometimes, that he doesn't really know him, and sometimes he doesn't believe everything in the bible, and that makes him feel like a faker and guilty and ashamed.

That is coming from a young child. These are children who are pressured and shamed into believing in something, they believe out of fear. They are told that they have to believe or else they'll be taken by satan, it is very very real for these children, the children are terrified of what might happen if they don't do and think exactly as their told.

This was the kind of analysis I was hoping to find by posting this here. I was just curious if, as Christians, you condoned any of the indoctrination shown in the film? Do you feel the camp or the parish in question was doing anything good and correct? Or do you think like me and that its criminal to subject these kids to this kind of material.

And these people are still in operation... http://www.kidsinministry.org

B00MSTICK · 21-01-2008 5:07am

I'm a christian but not a catholic or any other denomination. Id read from the bible and make my own interpretation of it. No need to go to church and hear other peoples interpretations if you want to talk to him, he's all around us right? Preaching to people especially kids like this is mad IMO. Brainwashing to the extreme.

Take a older woman I know, she is completey opposed to sex before marriage and other catholic notions. Fear of hell/satan. Didnt jc die on the cross so all our sins would be forgiven? Hence no sins? Im sure they were thought this as kids, just like kids in islamic countries have other ideals pressed on them, belief from fear again.

Sorry for my ignorance, just stumbled on the thread and posted my view!

PDN · 21-01-2008 3:20pm

B00MSTICK wrote: »

Didnt jc die on the cross so all our sins would be forgiven? Hence no sins?

Yes, Jesus died on the cross so all our sins would be forgiven. No, it does not follow that because forgiveness is available then somehow sins don't exist any more.

The teaching of Jesus, and of the rest of the New Testament, is that forgiveness is obtained through repentance (turning your life around so as not to repeat the sins).

Akrasia · 21-01-2008 4:27pm

PDN wrote: »

Yes, Jesus died on the cross so all our sins would be forgiven. No, it does not follow that because forgiveness is available then somehow sins don't exist any more.

The teaching of Jesus, and of the rest of the New Testament, is that forgiveness is obtained through repentance (turning your life around so as not to repeat the sins).

I don't get why forgiveness wasn't available before Jesus died on the cross. Why was his death necessary.

PDN · 21-01-2008 4:48pm

Akrasia wrote: »

I don't get why forgiveness wasn't available before Jesus died on the cross. Why was his death necessary.

Forgiveness was available before Jesus died on the Cross - otherwise nobody would have been forgiven prior to the first Century AD. However, Christians believe that all forgiveness for sin is based on the Cross (either looking forward to it by faith through the Old Testament sacrifices, or looking back to the Cross as a historical event).

Why was His death necessary? Because sin is far more offensive than any of us really grasp. God's justice requires that sin incurs a punishment, and that punishment is death. God, by paying the punishment for us on the Cross in the Person of Jesus Christ, made forgiveness and salvation possible without making a mockery of the concept of justice.

stevejazzx · 22-01-2008 1:54am

I watched it!:eek:

Absolutely terrifying stuff..the cheap psychology used by the adults to brain wash those poor poor children...it was incredibly sad..
They focused on the worse kind of scare mongering, fear, death and hell. The children are so bombarded with these constant threats of punishment that just don't know what to do, usually the result is some kind of mass hysteria with them all babbling away in tongues or crying aimlessly in the hope of that there will be some kind of comfort. The adults all twisted bigots decreeing sicence as a guess, an estimation and even a lie - while decreeing God, a litrealist biblical God as 'the only possible answer'. Global warming doesn't exist of course with these people and children as young as 6 and 7 years old are made to promise 'to never abort'
'don't be a promise-breaker' the main protaganist insits as part of her repertoire of endless dogmatic mantra..
it is a disgusting movie which depicts child abuse from begining to end in an open unapologetic nature as if they had some kind of immunity from reality. Indeed that is the thing with these people, they are totally removed from relaity, busy inventing enemies in thier heads
'kids in Palestine have hand grenades' 'we must be ready to fight them'!!
busy claiming to know things that they cannot possibly know.
I know they don't represent moderates but come on people surely it is plain to see from something like this that religon texts only feed this kind of fundamentlaism, for if you were to question them - they could rightfully claim that thier mandate lies in the bible, no? Muslims seem sure theirs is firmly contained within the pages of the Quran so what's the difference? For me their is very little differnece... it seems that all all people need to start a holy war is a holy book claiming a true faith...biggest probelm facing mankind in my opinion.

Steve

Jesus Camp

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