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Interested in Messianic Fellowship?

  • 27-01-2012 2:26pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    Dublin and indeed the R.O.I has no defined group for Messianic fellowship. We are hoping to form a congregation in some way of both Messianic Jews and Messianic gentiles (christians) and indeed any who seek knowledge of Yeshua and a great fellowship and walk in him. We are all one in Yeshua.

    We feel G-d is calling us to help Ireland follow Yeshua in a more harmonious way and that the 'main stream' religions and churches are not teaching us the commandments we need to follow to be true follows of the messiah.

    It is our goal to bring people to G-d. To teach the scriptures and the wonderful, awe inspiring message of the word of G-d to all those who have ears to listen.

    We also hope to teach those willing biblical hebrew and the practices Yeshua himself would have followed and commanded us to do.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    So is this 'Jews for Jesus' ?
    Do you have a link that would explain more what Messianic Fellowship is.
    Inquiring minds and all that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    Hi Tommy..

    Not exactly 'Jews for Jesus'.. more EVERYONE for Jesus.

    Messianic fellowship follows biblical commandments and tries to teach a life and fellowship more inline with what Yeshua (jesus) taught and practiced and less in line with what most churches 'teach'.

    Its a massive subject and a much more 'life' centered faith.

    We are kinda trying to see if there are enough people in the R.O.I interested in this to see if we can get it off the ground and form a group.

    In a nutshell:-

    Jeshua was a hebrew man. A practicing jew. He lived a jewish life and followed the Torah (book of teachings). He left several new commandment and instructions to us via his apostles
    (also practising hebrews) and the new testament. (a totally jewish document)

    As messianic followers (be it jew or gentile) we try to live as much to these commandments as possible. (as followers in christ we are all one in him and all part of Isreal).. heady concepts i know.

    There are some great videos of Messianic Teaching here


    We are only babies, little seeds, trying to start a tree of life here in Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    OP, do you consider yourselves Jews or Christians? It seems to me that of you believe in the divinity of Christ then that makes you Christians, in the religious sense at least. I know a lot of Jews feel "Messianic Jews" are misrepresenting themselves and Judaism, no offence intended, but I'm just curious.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    I suppose the easiest way to tick the box would be to say christian as that phrase neatly boxes our allegence with Yeshua. However there are several notable additions that make messianic churches much more Jewish.
    We believe in Torah, and the commandments. All of them. Yeshua taught us to obey the Torah and the commandments, he added a few too.

    We believe there is much more to true discipleship than grace alone.


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    OP, do you consider yourselves Jews or Christians? It seems to me that of you believe in the divinity of Christ then that makes you Christians, in the religious sense at least. I know a lot of Jews feel "Messianic Jews" are misrepresenting themselves and Judaism, no offence intended, but I'm just curious.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Tinyark wrote: »
    I suppose the easiest way to tick the box would be to say christian as that phrase neatly boxes our allegence with Yeshua. However there are several notable additions that make messianic churches much more Jewish.
    We believe in Torah, and the commandments. All of them. Yeshua taught us to obey the Torah and the commandments, he added a few too.

    We believe there is much more to true discipleship than grace alone.
    Hi, Tinyark.

    Are saying Christians must practice circumcision and keep the Mosaic Laws on foods, clothing, days, etc?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    Tinyark wrote: »
    I suppose the easiest way to tick the box would be to say christian as that phrase neatly boxes our allegence with Yeshua. However there are several notable additions that make messianic churches much more Jewish.
    We believe in Torah, and the commandments. All of them. Yeshua taught us to obey the Torah and the commandments, he added a few too.

    We believe there is much more to true discipleship than grace alone.
    Hi, Tinyark.

    Are saying Christians must practice circumcision and keep the Mosaic Laws on foods, clothing, days, etc?


    Nope. But the new testament alone holds 1000+ commandments.

    Obviously circumcision is a commandment reserved for the hebrews.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Tinyark wrote: »
    Nope. But the new testament alone holds 1000+ commandments.

    Obviously circumcision is a commandment reserved for the hebrews.
    Thanks for that clarification. But you intrigue me - 1000+ commandments? I can think some:
    No murder
    No theft
    No fornication
    No harbouring of thoughts of above
    No idolatry
    No greed
    No lying
    No swearing
    No blasphemy
    No unjust divorce
    No neglect of those whose duty it is for us to care for
    No rebellion against proper authority
    No eating of blood or things sacrificed to idols

    I'm sure I've missed some obvious ones. And I've omitted the positive expressions of God's law: Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

    But how did you find 1000+?

    *********************************************************************
    Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I was really interested in Messianic Judaism a few years ago. However, I think that it could very easily verge into legalism in respect to the Gospel if one isn't careful, or indeed the idea that the Law of Moses wasn't fulfilled through Jesus. The same is true of both Jews and Gentiles as far as I see it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭ Marvin Refined Wile


    If you were to read Romans it would be obvious that we are incapable of keeping the commandments.
    When we break one we break the law and the penalty is death.
    For that very reason He gave us His Spirit and we were brought out of the Old Covenant into a new one.

    Apart from all that, the emphasis on a "messianic christian" is all wrong.
    Scripture clearly states that there is neither Jew or Gentile, Slave or Free but we are a new man in Christ.
    Paul thought his heritage was as dung. He even questions the Galatians as to why they think they can attain to Faith through the keeping of the law. He asks who bewitched them.

    In light of this I have to question your whole basis of faith.

    When I came to Faith, I stopped being what I was. I gave up my religious heritage and became a Believer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    tatranska, I hope you continue in your faith in Jesus as the Messiah - Sometimes, there can be a language barrier and more often than not an attachment to so many things, we're human - When Christ was born, he was born a Jew, the Apostles were Jews, the Jews are God's chosen people and that Covenant is binding, and still is today for those who follow the law are bound by it.

    In Christ, is a new Covenant for both Jews and Gentiles ( we as 'Gentiles' are glad and full of joy to have been grafted in, and to have the opportunity to understand God's love, the God of Abraham and Isaac. Indeed the one and only God ) Jesus who became a child and grew as a man and lived among us, was persecuted when he did no wrong, he exemplified everything that is good, loving enemies, speaking truth, and most of all he was one with the Father and his will - He caught a lot of people off guard in his day - obviously! He highlighted what is good as the humble servant...and demonstrated what perfect love is.

    He himself said that all of the laws can be summed up into one; Love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself -

    That's a hard act to follow - certainly it seems that way, but it's our calling, and it corrects the course for us, we are also given the Helper, the Holy Spirit who writes hope and charity and wisdom to all who ask it on their hearts.

    Welcome to the forum - It's lovely to see a variety of posters.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭bonniebede


    lmaopml wrote: »
    tatranska, I hope you continue in your faith in Jesus as the Messiah - Sometimes, there can be a language barrier and more often than not an attachment to so many things, we're human - When Christ was born, he was born a Jew, the Apostles were Jews, the Jews are God's chosen people and that Covenant is binding, and still is today for those who follow the law are bound by it.

    In Christ, is a new Covenant for both Jews and Gentiles ( we as 'Gentiles' are glad and full of joy to have been grafted in, and to have the opportunity to understand God's love, the God of Abraham and Isaac. Indeed the one and only God ) Jesus who became a child and grew as a man and lived among us, was persecuted when he did no wrong, he exemplified everything that is good, loving enemies, speaking truth, and most of all he was one with the Father and his will - He caught a lot of people off guard in his day - obviously! He highlighted what is good as the humble servant...and demonstrated what perfect love is.

    He himself said that all of the laws can be summed up into one; Love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself -

    That's a hard act to follow - certainly it seems that way, but it's our calling, and it corrects the course for us, we are also given the Helper, the Holy Spirit who writes hope and charity and wisdom to all who ask it on their hearts.

    Welcome to the forum - It's lovely to see a variety of posters.


    Very interesting comment, thanks for putting your thoughts out there. If i may make a brief comment...

    Jesus did not come to exemplify what is good, this is a heresy condemned by the early church fathers called pelagianism.

    The problem with that approach was already summed up be paul when he wrote ' the good i would do I do not, while the thing which i do not want to do, i find myself doing'.

    our problem is not that we do not know the good, but that we are incapable without graceof living it.

    Jesus came not to show what was good, but to make it possible for us to have God the Holy SPirit dwell in us, and act in us so that we would do what we could not do before, you do say this at the end, I note. however it is very common these days to see Jesus as a prohet or teacher, and miss out on the ontological change which is at the heart of christianity, and i tihnk it is good to tighten up our language in that respect.:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭bonniebede


    Tinyark wrote: »
    Dublin and indeed the R.O.I has no defined group for Messianic fellowship. We are hoping to form a congregation in some way of both Messianic Jews and Messianic gentiles (christians) and indeed any who seek knowledge of Yeshua and a great fellowship and walk in him. We are all one in Yeshua.

    We feel G-d is calling us to help Ireland follow Yeshua in a more harmonious way and that the 'main stream' religions and churches are not teaching us the commandments we need to follow to be true follows of the messiah.

    It is our goal to bring people to G-d. To teach the scriptures and the wonderful, awe inspiring message of the word of G-d to all those who have ears to listen.

    We also hope to teach those willing biblical hebrew and the practices Yeshua himself would have followed and commanded us to do.


    thanks for this intriguing idea. i feel it is what the church and fellowship I belong to already do. Interestingly, maybe, the room where we fellowship is named after a Jewish lady called Edith who joined our church as an adult. She died in the holocaust, after our church leaders protested the deprotation and treatmentof the jews, and the nazi's decided to round up our church members who were jewish as retaliation. previously they had had some security as theywere considered christians.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Ooops sorry Tinyak, no deep theological undertones in my good statement meant really, just some praise offered up really.... I simply meant that God is Good, Jesus is God, and everything he does has got to be good :D There's a tongue twister for you...

    Anyway, welcome to the forum, it would be interesting to hear more perspectives from more Christians.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    bonniebede wrote: »
    Tinyark wrote: »
    Dublin and indeed the R.O.I has no defined group for Messianic fellowship. We are hoping to form a congregation in some way of both Messianic Jews and Messianic gentiles (christians) and indeed any who seek knowledge of Yeshua and a great fellowship and walk in him. We are all one in Yeshua.

    We feel G-d is calling us to help Ireland follow Yeshua in a more harmonious way and that the 'main stream' religions and churches are not teaching us the commandments we need to follow to be true follows of the messiah.

    It is our goal to bring people to G-d. To teach the scriptures and the wonderful, awe inspiring message of the word of G-d to all those who have ears to listen.

    We also hope to teach those willing biblical hebrew and the practices Yeshua himself would have followed and commanded us to do.

    If you feel you would be interested in hearing more or have quesions... please email [EMAIL="Tinyark@gmail.com"]Tinyark@gmail.com[/EMAIL]


    thanks for this intriguing idea. i feel it is what the church and fellowship I belong to already do. Interestingly, maybe, the room where we fellowship is named after a Jewish lady called Edith who joined our church as an adult. She died in the holocaust, after our church leaders protested the deprotation and treatmentof the jews, and the nazi's decided to round up our church members who were jewish as retaliation. previously they had had some security as theywere considered christians.


    Hi :) can I ask...

    Where do you meet?


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    lmaopml wrote: »
    Ooops sorry Tinyak, no deep theological undertones in my good statement meant really, just some praise offered up really.... I simply meant that God is Good, Jesus is God, and everything he does has got to be good :D There's a tongue twister for you...

    Anyway, welcome to the forum, it would be interesting to hear more perspectives from more Christians.


    No problem. My only hope here is I can find a congregation/group/house church that embraces the 'Hebrew'ness of Yeshua (language, scripture,Shabbat etc)


  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭SonOfAdam


    I can understand you wishing to keep hold of your heritage if you were from a Jewish background as 'Jewishness' is more than just a religion, it's a cultural identity. If you are not from a Jewish background I would wonder at your reasoning to claim this 'hebrewness' for yourself ?
    To me it's akin to converts to Islam who change their name from Tom to Ibrahim Khalid or somesuch thing, wear middle eastern clothing, learn arabic and take on a totally new cultural identity - as if the religion itself denotes the culture.
    The difference with Christianity is there is no cultural uniformity within it - it transcends cultures and backgrounds - there is neither Greek nor Jew, slave or free for all are one in Christ - As for keeping the 'Law' you should have a read through Galatians to see what Paul has to say about it and Judaizers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    SonOfAdam wrote: »
    I can understand you wishing to keep hold of your heritage if you were from a Jewish background as 'Jewishness' is more than just a religion, it's a cultural identity. If you are not from a Jewish background I would wonder at your reasoning to claim this 'hebrewness' for yourself ?
    To me it's akin to converts to Islam who change their name from Tom to Ibrahim Khalid or somesuch thing, wear middle eastern clothing, learn arabic and take on a totally new cultural identity - as if the religion itself denotes the culture.
    The difference with Christianity is there is no cultural uniformity within it - it transcends cultures and backgrounds - there is neither Greek nor Jew, slave or free for all are one in Christ - As for keeping the 'Law' you should have a read through Galatians to see what Paul has to say about it and Judaizers.

    I can see your approach here and it is a common question.

    Romans 11.24

    For me, its hard to accept as a believer in Yeshua that the modern perception of 'church' is the model we are to follow. When i read the bible (i prefer the word Torah as it means G-ds Teachings rather than 'Librarty') i can only really take that words in it as instruction. As such things like 'Easter', 'Christmas'... even 'Mass' are not in the Bible. It was around 350-400 years before these things were 'invented' by a roman church tryind to 'de-jew' christianity. Yeshua (Jesus's name at birth) was a hebrew. He worshipped at Temple, read in Synagouge and loved the Torah. He celebrated all the Hebrew festivals and observances like passover.

    His disciples did the same.

    Both Yeshua and his disciples followed Torah and said..

    'If you want to be like the master, imatate me"

    I do not confess to know every aspect of theology, nor do i condemn people for following the Christain faith in their own way. The New and Old Testement says,' Love the lord thy G-d and Love your fellow man as yourself', following this simple rule will mean you are following all of the Torah Commandments.

    However, even in the new testement there are commands like observing the Sabbath and not eating blood that many choose to ignore.

    Again, i do not condem.

    I simple believe if i adopt a more jewish understanding of the word, observances and commands of G-d and a less Roman one, my walk with Yeshua will be closer.

    For me something as simple as observing Sabbath on a friday and dedicating Friday evening and Saturday to reading, worship and spiritual rebalance gives me not only a way to praise g-d for a time he himself deems glorifying but also means i am walking as the Messiah and Disciples did.

    The new testement says that Yeshua tore down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile, making us one people.

    It also says g-d has grafted us into HIS tree, the tree of his people. Yeshua has through his death and purchase of our sin grafted me into the tree of his chosen people. I am 'in christ' also part of Isreal.

    Im not trying to offend, only learn more about what g-d planned for us to follow in the whole bible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    SonOfAdam wrote: »
    I can understand you wishing to keep hold of your heritage if you were from a Jewish background as 'Jewishness' is more than just a religion, it's a cultural identity. If you are not from a Jewish background I would wonder at your reasoning to claim this 'hebrewness' for yourself ?
    To me it's akin to converts to Islam who change their name from Tom to Ibrahim Khalid or somesuch thing, wear middle eastern clothing, learn arabic and take on a totally new cultural identity - as if the religion itself denotes the culture.
    The difference with Christianity is there is no cultural uniformity within it - it transcends cultures and backgrounds - there is neither Greek nor Jew, slave or free for all are one in Christ - As for keeping the 'Law' you should have a read through Galatians to see what Paul has to say about it and Judaizers.

    one other thing..

    Redemption can only come through grace.

    Paul new this. His point is not that you shouldnt follow Torah, his point was that 'alone' Torah cannot grant salvation. Torah alone is simple LAW, but with belief Torah is beautiful and allows as to walk the 'physical' walk as well as the spiritual.

    Following the commandments of G-d gloryfies him and he blesses us for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭SonOfAdam


    His point is that we have become heirs based on what Jesus has done for us not by observing the law; before faith came we were held prisoners by the law - now, as we are justified by faith we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

    9 But now that you know God— or rather are known by God— how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?

    10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. Gal 4.

    None of us could keep the requirements of the Law - their function was to point to Christ - the one who could keep them - The Galatians were grasping with the age old problem of adding to grace by their own works (observing the Law). It wasn't that they didn't have faith in what Christ had done for them, they were believers afterall , but they were bringing their own efforts to the table also - that's the 'bewitchment' they fell for - the inability to accept the meritless gift that God has given without conditions or add ons. Christ came to set us free not to bind us to rules and regulations - that's good news.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    SonOfAdam wrote: »
    His point is that we have become heirs based on what Jesus has done for us not by observing the law; before faith came we were held prisoners by the law - now, as we are justified by faith we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

    9 But now that you know God— or rather are known by God— how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?

    10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. Gal 4.

    None of us could keep the requirements of the Law - their function was to point to Christ - the one who could keep them - The Galatians were grasping with the age old problem of adding to grace by their own works (observing the Law). It wasn't that they didn't have faith in what Christ had done for them, they were believers afterall , but they were bringing their own efforts to the table also - that's the 'bewitchment' they fell for - the inability to accept the meritless gift that God has given without conditions or add ons. Christ came to set us free not to bind us to rules and regulations - that's good news.

    I agree with you in most respects and i praise you for points well executed - that, as i stated also redemption comes from faith. The issue here is Paul at no point said 'Do not hold the Sabbath'. He held Sabbath his whole life... as did all of the apostles. They even changed arrangements so be sure to be in particular places SO they could hold with the events of the Jewish Calender. (sabbath and passover were followed by Yeshuas early church till 350-400 AD)

    [FONT=Ariel,Helvetica] Acts 13:14 [/FONT][FONT=Ariel,Helvetica]Acts 13:42-44

    It is even kept by the Messiah in the Last days..

    [/FONT][FONT=Ariel,Helvetica]"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," Revelation 1:10 [/FONT]
    [FONT=Ariel,Helvetica][/FONT]
    Paul is saying that following the Sabbath for the sake of the Law. Following the Law for the sake of redemption is pointless. Hes saying that following the Sabbath because you are told to cannot give salvation as is meritless is held on that account.

    We are reading english converted from greek and greek that was converted from a number of sources but all the Gosples come from a hebrew perspective. Paul was talking to groups of Jews who for their whole life followed Torah and Temple so as to walk as G-d had instructed. It was hard for these people to understand these actions as RULES and not as devotions or teaching were not needed anymore.

    God does not change. God said the Sabbath is forever. He blessed it and called it Holy. Paul kept sabbath, Jesus kept sabbath...

    As such i keep sabbath. On Friday at sun set i welcome and praise G-d by giving a devotion. I keep Friday night and Saturday as Sabbath. Using the time to relax, learn, pray and read. I use the Sabbath as a holy day. I day to be closer to G-d, to feel the spirit and recharge my spiritual batteries. Just as all of my biblical instructors did until the Roman Church changed things in about 400 ad.

    Yeshua said that we are grafted into the tree of gods people and are as such part of Gods Israel..

    [FONT=Ariel,Helvetica]"Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant." Exodus 31:16 [/FONT]

    I didnt post on this forum to try to convert, as there is nothing to convert. A messianic jew, gentile, born again or plan old 'christian' is all one in christ as long as they follow the commands Yeshua gave us.

    I personally believe the Yeshua is the Word, the Word is God, the Word is with God and the Word IS the bible.. the WHOLE bible. God doesnt change. Only the way we view his WORD does.

    I simply wondered if there were any like minded people in the ROI...

    As a follower of the master i do not try to follow the law because i have to.. i follow because g-d wants me to. Its also pretty awesome to me to be able to 'walk' in early church roots and know that im pleasing YHWY when i do these things. :)

    I hope your walk with Yeshua brings you as much joy :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭SonOfAdam


    They kept sabbath because they were jews - Paul rebukes Peter for forcing gentile believers to follow jewish customs - that's the difference. Gentiles were not bound to adopt customs that were not theirs - the jews could hold on to their custom if they believed it came to them by faith and Paul says that whether you keep them or not it's a matter for yourself and God.

    Paul preached in synagogue because that's where people met - but he preached Christ - the stone that was rejected - he was also run out of a few of them.

    As for keeping sabbath - if your conscience tells you to do so , then do.
    whether it's a Saturday, Sunday or any other day, for that matter, for me it's of no importance. Every day is the Lord's Day, no one more special than the other - but that's just my opinion and like many minutiae my salvation doesn't depend on it.

    I have faith in Jesus and trust that what He has done is sufficient without me trying to follow 900 or so laws that I couldn't possibly keep. I commend you for your fervour - I think it an unnecessary stumbling block but if you find intimacy with Jesus (Yeshua) doing what you do - then that's great. We come from many walks - diversity is no bad thing :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    :)

    well i enjoy it :) and passover etc. makes me think about the blood of the lamb in every aspect.

    Shalom :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Tinyark wrote: »
    :)

    well i enjoy it :) and passover etc. makes me think about the blood of the lamb in every aspect.

    Shalom :)
    The best of Christians differ on the keeping of the Sabbath, so let's pass by that for the moment as I seek to see your meaning about Christians keeping the Law.

    Do you say Gentile Christians like myself must keep the dietary laws of Moses? And the laws about clean and unclean items? Mixed fabrics? Circumcision?


    ******************************************************************
    Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    Tinyark wrote: »
    :)

    well i enjoy it :) and passover etc. makes me think about the blood of the lamb in every aspect.

    Shalom :)
    The best of Christians differ on the keeping of the Sabbath, so let's pass by that for the moment as I seek to see your meaning about Christians keeping the Law.

    Do you say Gentile Christians like myself must keep the dietary laws of Moses? And the laws about clean and unclean items? Mixed fabrics? Circumcision?


    ******************************************************************
    Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.


    I'm not saying 'you must do' anything :)

    And I might add I'm a gentile, I'm also part of Israel.

    Matthew 5:19

    New International Version (NIV)
    19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Personally my faith path is this.

    Grace redemmed the 'cost' of my sin. Sin is still there but i do not have to pay the ultimate cost 'death'. Sin still remains though.

    My love for G-d leads me to have the will to be obediant to the bible in all areas that pertain to me as a gentile.



    This rather nicely outlines a little of messianic or hebraic roots thinking on just a small part of what we try to adhere to....

    Acts-Chapter-15


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Tinyark wrote: »
    I'm not saying 'you must do' anything :)

    And I might add I'm a gentile, I'm also part of Israel.

    Matthew 5:19

    New International Version (NIV)
    19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Personally my faith path is this.

    Grace redemmed the 'cost' of my sin. Sin is still there but i do not have to pay the ultimate cost 'death'. Sin still remains though.

    My love for G-d leads me to have the will to be obediant to the bible in all areas that pertain to me as a gentile.



    This rather nicely outlines a little of messianic or hebraic roots thinking on just a small part of what we try to adhere to....

    Acts-Chapter-15
    The article really forces a meaning on Acts 15 that is nonsense. It tries to say Paul's objection was to adult circumcision rather than just circumcision being imposed on Gentiles. As if Abraham was not circumcised as an adult! Or any of the later Gentile converts of the OT.

    No, it won't do. You/they are saying Gentiles must keep the Law of Moses to be good Christians. That's a dangerous error - not far from the false gospel of saying they must keep the Law of Moses to genuine Christians.

    Acts 15 did not pass on Moses to the Gentiles. The prohibition on idols, fornication and blood preceded Moses. From the Beginning it was a sin to worship idols, to fornicate, to eat blood or anything whose blood was not poured out (anything strangled). Noah and his family were the first to be permitted to eat flesh, and that is where the commandment comes from.

    Gentiles have no business circumcising their boys for religious reasons. Not for abstaining from eating 'unclean' animals for religious reasons. Nor are they obliged to keep sabbath days, new moons, etc. Those were the shadows; Christ has fulfilled them all.

    ***************************************************************
    Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    The article really forces a meaning on Acts 15 that is nonsense. It tries to say Paul's objection was to adult circumcision rather than just circumcision being imposed on Gentiles. As if Abraham was not circumcised as an adult! Or any of the later Gentile converts of the OT.

    No, it won't do. You/they are saying Gentiles must keep the Law of Moses to be good Christians. That's a dangerous error - not far from the false gospel of saying they must keep the Law of Moses to genuine Christians.

    Acts 15 did not pass on Moses to the Gentiles. The prohibition on idols, fornication and blood preceded Moses. From the Beginning it was a sin to worship idols, to fornicate, to eat blood or anything whose blood was not poured out (anything strangled). Noah and his family were the first to be permitted to eat flesh, and that is where the commandment comes from.

    Gentiles have no business circumcising their boys for religious reasons. Not for abstaining from eating 'unclean' animals for religious reasons. Nor are they obliged to keep sabbath days, new moons, etc. Those were the shadows; Christ has fulfilled them all.



    ***************************************************************
    Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

    I dont remember ever saying anyone has to follow any of these doctines?

    Personally it make more sense to me that the apostles, who continued to follow Torah observances for there whole life, quotes on Torah as regards to what to do when bringing in Gentiles into the fold. 1 century mindset and not 4th century Roman Church Liturgy.

    These are shadows.. this meant they are reflections, connected to christ. They are pictures of christ because christ was the Torah.

    Anyway.. thats my take.

    I certainly am not enforcing my ideas on people. As i seem to keep repeating.

    Blessed is the Lord our God, King of the Universe who opens our heart to the scriptures. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Tinyark said:
    I dont remember ever saying anyone has to follow any of these doctines?
    Hmm. You say that these are God's laws, but that we can refuse to keep them and not be guilty of sin???
    Personally it make more sense to me that the apostles, who continued to follow Torah observances for there whole life, quotes on Torah as regards to what to do when bringing in Gentiles into the fold. 1 century mindset and not 4th century Roman Church Liturgy.
    The apostles did not say they or the Gentiles are obliged to keep the Law of Moses. They kept them as a choice - evidently to maintain as good relationship as possible with their unconverted neighbours.

    But they did say it was an obligation not to consume blood. That is a law from Noah, not from Moses.

    But I agree that many traditions of men have been added to churches after the apostolic age. They are just as wrong as any OC obligations today.
    These are shadows.. this meant they are reflections, connected to christ. They are pictures of christ because christ was the Torah.
    Shadows, reflections - that gave way to the reality of Christ. It is sinful to return to these weak and beggarly elements as an obligation.
    Anyway.. thats my take.

    I certainly am not enforcing my ideas on people. As i seem to keep repeating.
    Can you confirm your understanding of me as a Christian eating pork for my lunch today? Did I sin in doing so?
    Blessed is the Lord our God, King of the Universe who opens our heart to the scriptures.
    Amen! :)

    ****************************************************************
    Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    Hi.. Sorry for the slow response.

    Did you sin while eating pork? No.. i had some for lunch yesterday. Would i eat sausages? No, because they may contain blood. Nearly all slaughter houses are required to drain the blood from an animal before the meat can be sold. Sausages contain.. well lets say all sorts, i prefer not to chance it.... and i LOVE sauages and black pudding..

    ...this my illustrate my faith choice.

    Of course i look at the apostles for guidence. Outside of the 4 gosples and acts we are given alot of fine teachings from Yeshuas disiples. I must always return to Christ though. He was g-d. His spirit is G-ds spirit.

    Christ followed the Jewish Law. He was a practising Jew.

    He did not come to start a new religion but to fulfill the Torah. Its hard for me to believe G-d created the Torah, (an object that was supposed to BE the Messiah in word form) and then after the miracle of the cross and the message of the ressurection decide that he changed his mind.

    I do not follow sabbath because i have to. I could choose not to. Christ didn't choose not too. He did'nt preach not too. Even the apostles kept it. Why would they keep it put preach they did not need to?

    Because G-d said to keep it forever?

    Probably.

    As a believer i take the whole bible in. I try to read as much about the context, believe and language of the time as i can. Does one have to do this? No, but i have a hunger for the context of Christs life.

    I keep sabbath because i can. G-d in his plan set aside certain things for him. As a child of G-d i can chose to do the least i can. I chose to do the most i can within my means. If G-d says to keep sabbath, i will try too. He did not say this exclusively to the Hebrews or even to the Tribes but to the first men and woman. He places provision in the Torah for Gentiles who travelled with the Hebrews.

    I am not hung up on law. I do because i can in almost all cases, not because i must.

    If Christ had not ascended into Heaven, whould be be practising Sabbath? Saying the blesssing he said at passover? Yes.. why wouldn't he. He did then for this whole life.

    As for sin. The 'cost' or 'payment' for the sin in man is his spiritual death from G-d. His constant and forever seperation from G-d.
    As a believer i believe when Christ died he was the Ultimate burnt offering.. the Final Blood of the passover.

    His attonment meant my Sins are payed for. However this doesnt mean i cant sin. The bible says we are the temple. That Jesus was the boundry wall, torn down between the Gentiles and Jews. If we sin, as we all do every day, we know that when we cast the sin out it is paid for in full.

    Thats it. As long as i keep Jesus front and formost in my heart and live and live in him and him through me then i am in christ.

    Then why try to follow Torah? Why try to follow biblical commandments?

    Because they make HaShem happy. They are things he put in place to try to have his followers achieve grace through faith and devotion.

    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I think Jesus said the Keeping Toraj as a mean to be redeemed and saved is not the answer but keeping Torah as a way to be straight and pleasing to G-d is still valid and has not changed.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Matthew 5:17-19 [/FONT]

    I follow sabbath as a devotion. A fantasic excuse to take 24 hours and devote them to g-d. To listen to the words Yeshua spoke and to hear his footsteps.

    I'm not converting. Each to his own. Just answering questions.

    Mark Driscoll said, being a christian is not about living a life pleasing to G-d but about living a life when Jesus is in your heart and mind on everything thing to think and do.

    For me, these devotions that G-d put in place help me take part in practisice i KNOW G-d is happy about and that exault him.

    :) Your friend in Yeshua



    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]


    [/FONT]


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Tinyark said:
    Hi.. Sorry for the slow response.
    I'm in the same boat.:D
    Did you sin while eating pork? No.. i had some for lunch yesterday. Would i eat sausages? No, because they may contain blood. Nearly all slaughter houses are required to drain the blood from an animal before the meat can be sold. Sausages contain.. well lets say all sorts, i prefer not to chance it.... and i LOVE sauages and black pudding..

    ...this my illustrate my faith choice.
    That's very helpful. So you are not keeping the Law of Moses, rather the NT Law. That is my position too. BTW, I must look into the sausage issue - I am not aware that they contain blood. I eat little of them because they contain so much fat. I used to eat black pudding - until I saw the Acts 15 prohibition.
    Of course i look at the apostles for guidence. Outside of the 4 gosples and acts we are given alot of fine teachings from Yeshuas disiples. I must always return to Christ though. He was g-d. His spirit is G-ds spirit.
    Hmm. The apostles are infallible teachers of Christ's gospel. They are not just great human commentators. What Christ had not time to convey, He sent them to bring to us.
    Christ followed the Jewish Law. He was a practising Jew.
    Indeed, born under Moses' Law, and kept it perfectly. But we are not under Moses' Law - rather we are under/in law to Christ.
    He did not come to start a new religion but to fulfill the Torah.
    Which He did - but then set up the New Covenant, under which circumcision and all the 'touch not, taste nots' of Moses no longer apply.
    Its hard for me to believe G-d created the Torah, (an object that was supposed to BE the Messiah in word form) and then after the miracle of the cross and the message of the ressurection decide that he changed his mind.
    The Law of Moses was a type and shadow of Christ. Now that He has come, we are no longer under its discipline. We are under Christ's.
    I do not follow sabbath because i have to.
    By 'have to' I mean be under moral obligation to do. That God commands us to keep it and all the other laws of Moses.
    I could choose not to.
    Like you could choose not to love your neighbour as yourself? Such a choice would be sin.
    Christ didn't choose not too. He did'nt preach not too.
    Because He was under the Law. He never ate pork either. He kept the whole of the Law of Moses.
    Even the apostles kept it. Why would they keep it put preach they did not need to?
    Did they? Or if they did, did they do so because God commanded it or because they wished not to cause offence to their Jewish fellow-countrymen?
    Because G-d said to keep it forever?
    Was not the Law of Moses a 'forever'? Forever if it had been obeyed. Forever if it had not been fulfilled and set aside.
    As a believer i take the whole bible in. I try to read as much about the context, believe and language of the time as i can. Does one have to do this? No, but i have a hunger for the context of Christs life.

    I keep sabbath because i can. G-d in his plan set aside certain things for him. As a child of G-d i can chose to do the least i can. I chose to do the most i can within my means. If G-d says to keep sabbath, i will try too. He did not say this exclusively to the Hebrews or even to the Tribes but to the first men and woman. He places provision in the Torah for Gentiles who travelled with the Hebrews.
    The provision for Gentiles keeping the Law of Moses was because the Old Covenant was in operation - a nation under its authority, and strangers who came in had to comply. That Covenant went with Christ's death and resurrection. Gentiles worship with Jews in the New Covenant without the need to be circumcised or keep the food and dietary laws of Moses.
    I am not hung up on law. I do because i can in almost all cases, not because i must.
    I'm sorry - you seem to be jumping back and forth about whether God commands you to keep the Law or not. If He commands us to keep all the laws Christ kept, it is a sin not to.
    If Christ had not ascended into Heaven, whould be be practising Sabbath? Saying the blesssing he said at passover? Yes.. why wouldn't he. He did then for this whole life.
    True. The New Covenant would not have replaced the Mosaic Covenant. Circumcision and all the other bits would still be mandatory.
    As for sin. The 'cost' or 'payment' for the sin in man is his spiritual death from G-d. His constant and forever seperation from G-d.
    As a believer i believe when Christ died he was the Ultimate burnt offering.. the Final Blood of the passover.

    His attonment meant my Sins are payed for. However this doesnt mean i cant sin. The bible says we are the temple. That Jesus was the boundry wall, torn down between the Gentiles and Jews. If we sin, as we all do every day, we know that when we cast the sin out it is paid for in full.

    Thats it. As long as i keep Jesus front and formost in my heart and live and live in him and him through me then i am in christ.

    Then why try to follow Torah? Why try to follow biblical commandments?

    Because they make HaShem happy.
    Yes - we try not to sin because we love God and want to do His will. But that means I must be circumcised and keep the whole Law of Moses IF that Law is still mandatory for His children.
    They are things he put in place to try to have his followers achieve grace through faith and devotion.
    They were types and shadows, school-rules to discipline the godly until Christ would come and bring them to maturity. Then they would pass away.

    A second purpose was to prove how impossible it was for sinful men to keep God's holy law. The commandments came to stir up the sinful mind to sin in spite of the knowledge of God's will - so that sin would be seen as exceedingly sinful. The Law brought death, not life.
    I think Jesus said the Keeping Toraj as a mean to be redeemed and saved is not the answer but keeping Torah as a way to be straight and pleasing to G-d is still valid and has not changed. Matthew 5:17-19
    Christ fulfilled the Torah. Then He replaced it. If it is still His command to us, then Paul got it wrong when he said: Romans 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
    And: Colossians 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
    I follow sabbath as a devotion. A fantasic excuse to take 24 hours and devote them to g-d. To listen to the words Yeshua spoke and to hear his footsteps.
    That's great - and you are free to do so and do not sin by doing it. Others who do not observe the day are also free to do so and do not sin by not doing it.
    I'm not converting. Each to his own. Just answering questions.
    But if you think I'm sinning in not keeping Moses, then you should confront me!
    Mark Driscoll said, being a christian is not about living a life pleasing to G-d but about living a life when Jesus is in your heart and mind on everything thing to think and do.
    Which amounts to the same thing.
    For me, these devotions that G-d put in place help me take part in practisice i KNOW G-d is happy about and that exault him.
    And I'm not despising you for it. Only showing you it is a matter of preference, not obligation.
    :) Your friend in Yeshua

    Blessings to you, my brother in Yeshua. :)

    *******************************************************************
    Romans 14:2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Tinyark


    Just a small post to any new readers looking for a more hebrew roots fellowship :)
    we very recently launched a blog www.spiritualbabies.net

    much study has occured over the last few months :)

    If any one is interested please visit us or some great info can be found:

    www.rabbiscott.com
    www.crownofmessiah.com
    www.ffoz.com

    :)

    Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

    Although Jesus said Only the Father know when he shall come again, he did expect Sabbath to be help at that time. Indeed, John even mentions Sabbath in Revelations.

    I love that passage.. it shows such concern for his people.


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