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two fires in one chimney

  • 23-08-2011 11:10pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭


    we have an open fire in sitting room and a stove in kichen. these are in two rooms, back to back. the stove was put in around 6 years ago and it is around 4 red bricks up from the floor, so its a higher level than sitting room fire. it has been working fine. recently, someone we know wants to do the same but they were told it could cause an explosion. needless to say i am extremely worried now. has anyone got this done, have you had any problems?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    anyone?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    Are you sure its just one chimney? How many chimney pots do you see outside on the chimney? Should be at least 2.

    I would imagine one central chimney but with 2 flues inside each serving the stove and open fire.

    There should not be two fires sharing one flue. I would be very surprised if this was the case as it's a no no as it can cause fumes to leak out and affect the draw of the fire(s). Do not use until sure each fireplace/ stove has its own seperate flue/chimney.

    Stove Fan:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 448 ✭✭Master and commander


    two appliances/fire can share one chiney no problem, however they CANNOT share the same flue. Each appliance needs its own dedicated flue. If her chimney has two flues, she's fine, if not she will need to install a another flue. A benefit of this is the other flue can be installed at any location. It will be a metal one, you won't have to build a concrete chimeny.


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    two chimneys have one flue, haven't had any probs...yet


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 448 ✭✭Master and commander


    I dont understand. are you sure you don't mean you have one chimney with two flues? The chimney is the large rectangular concrete structure and the flues are the "tubes" that pass up through it. How many chimney pots do you have? if you have two appliances/fires you should have 2 chimney pots and thus two flues.

    if you had two chimney with only one flue, my mind boggles as to why the builder would build the second chimney with no flue!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    what we have is one chimney stack with one chimney pot. guy broke through wall into sitting room chimney and put in stove in kitchen


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    We have the same with 2 fireplaces into 1 chimney. However it is very definitely against building regulations. We went spare with the architect over it when we found out, unfortunately after the fact. We are going to have to block one of the fireplaces up at some stage or do a messy chimney expansion job.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 448 ✭✭Master and commander


    unfortunatley then, i'm afraid you have had a cowboy in! that goes against building regs. gasseat the very least you would be losing an awful lot of head up that chimney as the gasses going up will suck air out through the other fireplace.
    Also you are at risk of gasses like carbon monoxide coming back down into the other room which is dangerous needless to say. Godforbid, if somone in the house was killed by CO poisoning, the guy would be up for manslaughter!

    i'd strongly advise that you get that chimney situation rectified and not to use either fireplace until it is fixed. I'd also consider reporting that "installer" to the authorities like the guards or the council as if he's doing this type of hatchet jobs, he's a very real danger to householders.


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    unfortunatley then, i'm afraid you have had a cowboy in! that goes against building regs. gasseat the very least you would be losing an awful lot of head up that chimney as the gasses going up will suck air out through the other fireplace.
    Also you are at risk of gasses like carbon monoxide coming back down into the other room which is dangerous needless to say. Godforbid, if somone in the house was killed by CO poisoning, the guy would be up for manslaughter!

    i'd strongly advise that you get that chimney situation rectified and not to use either fireplace until it is fixed. I'd also consider reporting that "installer" to the authorities like the guards or the council as if he's doing this type of hatchet jobs, he's a very real danger to householders.

    we have carbon mon. alarms, have never gone off. don't doubt you, just not in a postion to be able to do anything


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    tricky D wrote: »
    We have the same with 2 fireplaces into 1 chimney. However it is very definitely against building regulations. We went spare with the architect over it when we found out, unfortunately after the fact. We are going to have to block one of the fireplaces up at some stage or do a messy chimney expansion job.

    tricky d, is it just one flue you have too?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 448 ✭✭Master and commander


    you don't need to build a concrete chimney, that would be messy alright. you could install an insulated stainless steel flue for the stove which would not cause the same level of disruption and would be alot cheaper. Then re-instate the original chimney as was originally.


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    can i ask, does anyone know a very reasonable alternative/solution on what we could do, stoney broke we are!


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    you don't need to build a concrete chimney, that would be messy alright. you could install an insulated stainless steel flue for the stove which would not cause the same level of disruption and would be alot cheaper. Then re-instate the original chimney as was originally.

    can you explain that more please, any idea of prices, replies much appreciated!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 448 ✭✭Master and commander


    well the insulated flue option is the most cost effective way of keeping both aplliances in operation.

    the cheapest way to ensure safe operation and comply with regs is to block off one fire fully and only use the remaining one. I reccomend blocking off the open fire as they are whofully, disastrously inefficient. stove would be the one to keep imo.

    if thats not possible i think the safest option is to use neither until it is fixed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    meant to say, rang someone earlier who said he would put in stainless steel pipe, down chimney, leaving original flue, takes a days work, costs around €1,500


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Cal04 wrote: »
    tricky d, is it just one flue you have too?

    One.

    We also had to get 2 'blocking things' made up to address the issues M and C raised.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 448 ✭✭Master and commander


    expanding chimney/installing second flue would be at least €5000-7000 as its a big operation. major work.
    It may be possible to gut the existing one and install two fexible liners, but i never heard of it being done. you'd have to research it. if possible it would be much cheaper as there is no disruption to the roof.

    installing an insulated stainless steel flue and repair existing - should get it done for under 3000.

    blocking off fireplace and using only the stove with your existing flue would only be a couple of hundred.

    personally i'd reccomend getting rid of the open fire in any case. as said they are huge heat wasters. maybe install a sealed solid fuel fireplace/room heater instead. much better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    tricky D wrote: »
    One.

    We also had to get 2 'blocking things' made up to address the issues M and C raised.

    can you explain more


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    expanding chimney/installing second flue would be at least €5000-7000 as its a big operation. major work.
    It may be possible to gut the existing one and install two fexible liners, but i never heard of it being done. you'd have to research it. if possible it would be much cheaper as there is no disruption to the roof.

    installing an insulated stainless steel flue and repair existing - should get it done for under 3000.

    blocking off fireplace and using only the stove with your existing flue would only be a couple of hundred.

    personally i'd reccomend getting rid of the open fire in any case. as said they are huge heat wasters. maybe install a sealed solid fuel fireplace/room heater instead. much better.
    goog grief, i wish i hadn't asked


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 448 ✭✭Master and commander


    Cal04 wrote: »
    meant to say, rang someone earlier who said he would put in stainless steel pipe, down chimney, leaving original flue, takes a days work, costs around €1,500

    that wouldn't be any goo in your situation as you'd still only have one flue, a stainless one. What i'm talking about is an insulated flue that will be separate from you old chimney. It would be an extra stainless steel thing on your roof.

    oh is is a bungalow or a two story and how old.

    if a bungalow it would be a good bit cheaper thoug, as you dont have the extra floor to negotiate.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    bungalow, 11 years old


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 448 ✭✭Master and commander


    Bungalow. well revise those figures down by say 25-30%.

    the ideal solution would be to gut out the old chimney and have two steel flueliners installed if possible. cant say a price on this though. have to ask really. certainly cheaper and will look better from outside.

    to keep both fires insulated flue will be cheaper option, but steel stack on roof might look ugly?

    going cheaper again, move the stove to a location on an outside wall and put your new insulated flue out through that wall and up th outside. then fix up the other fireplace to its original. i'd be thinking around 2000 for that. Can you do this? but then this would be complicated further if your stove has back boiler/plumbing attatched.

    if you were to just block up the open fire and use the stove with the existing chimney/single flue you would work out cheapest, and your home will be alot warmer also as you won't have all those draughts and heat losses through the open fire. Your stove will have a better draught too and run better.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 448 ✭✭Master and commander


    can think of any physical/structural reason why gutting any refitting two flues into the existing chimney would not be feasible, unless ther is a space resriction in it.

    -in fireplace, break through fluegahtering
    - remove all the old flueliners and sand/lime filling
    - at top, remove the existing pot and enlarge hol in or remove the chimney cap
    - install one 6" flue for stove and one 8" flue for open fire.(or two 6" ones if installing a fluch stove/room heater in openfireplace)
    - repair flue gathering/appliance attatchments. chimney might need filling. have to check
    - repair or replace chimney cap and fit two pots.

    as for price, i can't be sure as i've never seen it done. a weeks work say, for two men - say 1200 pay, new flues say 2000 (theyre not cheap btw), other materials, cement etc 300. I'd say you'd be looking at €3500-4000 or thereabouts,


  • Registered Users Posts: 648 ✭✭✭PeteHeat


    Cal04,

    As you sent a PM for my opinion I will give it, and yes you are correct I am in the stove business.

    What you are describing is two appliances into one flue?

    For doing such a thing the installer should be arrested and serve at least 5 years !

    Building regulations are very good guides but common sense should always be observed, when we look at Part J of the building regulations the majority of the documents only refer to good working practice (or common sense).

    I can not understand how your fireplace and stove have worked in the same flue without any problems.

    As for fitting another flue into an existing chimney in a modern house I reckon you will come across serious space restriction as already mentioned because most chimneys are built to suit the number of flues / fireplaces they are to serve.

    Carbon Monoxide is not the main problem with the set up as described, the danger is smoke can be drawn into the adjoining room and if there was a chimney fire the hot embers will most likely fall into the open fireplace possibly onto the floor.

    A simple temporary fix for someone without the funds is to block up the fireplace or remove the stove.

    A more permanent fix is to fit a twin wall flue beside the existing chimney breast for the stove and while staying within the building regulations encase the new flue so it looks like part of the original chimney.

    There are a number of possibilities but it could be misleading to post them as a survey is needed to establish exactly what is needed and what will work.

    I hope the above is of help,

    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Cal04


    A more permanent fix is to fit a twin wall flue beside the existing chimney breast for the stove and while staying within the building regulations encase the new flue so it looks like part of the original chimney.
    is this a huge amount of work, how expensive would that be?


  • Registered Users Posts: 648 ✭✭✭PeteHeat


    PeteHeat wrote: »
    Cal04,

    There are a number of possibilities but it could be misleading to post them as a survey is needed to establish exactly what is needed and what will work.

    I hope the above is of help,

    .

    Throwing numbers at the problem from my desk would be a very bad idea because what usually happens is I will over compensate for possible details that are already taken care of or I can under estimate which raises a persons hopes of having the problem solved within their budget only to find the cost goes up following the survey.

    A survey should be carried out with an open mind to achieving the best solution for the customer, my experience is if the customer can't afford to do the job properly today they usually save the necessary funds, it is not unusual for people to come back to me a year or even two after the original survey.

    Sorry I can't be of more help regarding the cost.

    .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 joeblob


    Hi,
    I have just bought a boiler stove and was in the very same position, ie the stove is in a seperate room but back to back with the open fire. You most definately cannot service both fires with one flue. Your house insurance will not cover you if you (god forbid) had a fire. If you can't build a new chimney with a clay flue to service the stove your only other option is a stainless steel twin wall insulated system. If your house is bungalow this will obviously be cheaper. Also bear in mind that your flue system must be at least 15feet high from the top of the stove to the flue exit. This provides for better draw on smoke and fumes and decreases the chance of downdraft. I got my flue system from miflues.ie in Co. Meath. Their website has downloadable brochures with clear and detailed pictures.
    They can also provide the system in black if you want to avoid that industrial look.I have to repeat what was already posted and that is i would strongly recommend that you do not light both fires if they lead to a single flue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,721 ✭✭✭Al Capwned


    Any updates cal04?


  • Registered Users Posts: 34 Emmett1


    Hi Folks

    Am I glad I have seen the thread. I was about to put a solid fuel stove with boiler, back to back with an open fire, into one flue. I wont be doing that now. I too live in a bungalow, 1350 sq ft. 8 radiators. I am going to have to build another chimney now. I have had several people tell me you can do this and several people tell me you cant. Reading through this now, "decision made". I never thought about house insurance and how it would effect my policy. Let alone the safety of my young family.

    Next question !!! Do I have to apply for planning to erect another chimney ? What is the best stove? The house has 8 radiators. The kitchen where the stove is going is 30 feet x 17 feet (approx) with high ceilings. Every stove provider is telling me that their stove is the best one. To say I'm a little muddled is an under statement.

    Obviously we must save for this, I'm guessing this will cost 4000-5000 all in, or am I dreaming. I have a friend who will build the chimney for me. I have not talked to a plumber yet. I'm hoping to run the pipes up the wall across the attic and down into the hot press. (save digging up floors). Hide them some where in the new chimney, Can this be done.

    Any advice welcome, cheers
    Emmett


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