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Israeli apartheid

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    #32
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    Sykes wrote: »
    It's the 'Hebron protocol'

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Concerning_the_Redeployment_in_Hebron

    The Israelis did gain some from the agreement, in the details of the redeployment arrangements and in the right of Jewish settlers to remain in Hebron. .
    Sorry but can you quote me something other than a line in a Wikipedia document that states that Israeli settlers in Hebron have a legal right to stay under international law? Please cite a credible source that states this right in law.
    Sykes wrote: »
    Well they have lived on that land for millennia. That's a pretty strong case. Are you really saying that you support the creation of a 'palestinian' state that prohibits Jews from living there? that's highly racist, isn't it?
    I'm not going to go into the "have been here for millenia" crap with you as it has no basis in the current situation or in law. There's nothing that prohibits Jews from living there. However, settling the citizens of an occupying power is illegal under international law, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.
    Sykes wrote: »
    Well Israel did evict a 'palestinian' family from a house owned by Jews not long ago in East Jerusalem, and there was an international outcry even though the Jewish family that owned the land had title deeds which were 100 years old.
    From what I know of the cases in Shiekh Jarrah, the authenticity of the Ottoman land documents are in dispute. Also, the settlers moving into these houses were not the people, or the decendents, of those who lived there previously. The UN stated the evictions were illegal and US condemned them. Also, an Israeli civilian court ruled over the issue in an area that is occupied under international law and therefore has no jurisdiction. Also, if possession of Ottoman property documents can allow for the eviction of Palestinians from their homes then surely Palestinians with Ottoman property deeds for homes in Israel can have Jews evicted from homes that they were evicted from in 1948. I've heard about talks regarding Palestinians considering taking such cases to Israeli courts. Surely not to allow them would be racist, no?
    Sykes wrote: »
    The West Bank is Judea. The Jewish birthplace. The idea that Jews should be barred from living there is abhorrent.
    OK, so you can't cite anything in law. That's fine. No need to spout a load of irrelivant twaddle.


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    #33
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Sykes wrote: »
    I think you'll find that under the agreement with the 'Palestinians' in 1997, Jews are entitled to stay in Hebron. Whatever the UN says with the 56 members of the OIC dominating it, the agreement still stands and thus Jews are entitled to live there, just as they ought to be entitled to live anywhere in the West Bank.

    Firstly not a single member of the OIC is a part of the security council, which means that thery have limited power in the UN, but your Muslims control the UN nonsense is hardly surprising.

    Secondly, your understanding of the Hebron agreement is bizarre to say the least, and other have already shown this up.

    Thirdly, you inability to understand my basic point is simple breath taking. No where in any agreement anywhere are Zionist colonists allowed to drive Palestinians from there homes. Zionist colonists in the West Bank are there illegally, and have no right to be there.
    Sykes wrote: »
    Unless you're claiming that Jews should be ethnically cleansed from the West Bank in order to create a 'pure palestinian' country. That would be extremely racist.

    Removing colonists is not ethnic cleansing.

    To sugggest it is the same is utter nonsense. Also, Abu Mazen has actually offered the colonists the right to stay in a Palestinian state, and be Palestinians citizens, but that is up to the Palestinians.
    Sykes wrote: »
    I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy if Israel decided to make itself a purely Jewish country and threw out the Muslims who make up 20% of its population.

    Firstly 20% of the population is Palestinian, whom are Muslims, Atheist, Christian etc. Secondly, Israel was found on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and as such they have already done this in the past, and one of the main aims of Zionism is a ethnically pure as possible Jewish state, and main stream Israeli politicians have stated there desire to rid themselves as much of the indigenous Palestinian populace as they can manage.

    So please don't try this nonsene with me. There is a world of difference between trying to get rid of colonists, who are some where illegally and the pre-exisiting indigenous population. They are not the same.


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    #34
    comeraghs
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭comeraghs


    only one side has threatened to wipe out every single man, woman & child of the other side.

    only one side trains it´s children & mentally handicapped to murder innocent civilians.

    for every Palestinian refugee in 1948 .. there was a Jewish refugee from the Arabs countries & Iran ... Isreal accepted & integrated these refugees ... why didn´t the Musilm world do the same to the Plaestinian refugees?

    if Israel allows 1 million Arabs live inside its borders, why should 100,000 or so Jews not live in the West Bank,


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    #35
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    comeraghs wrote: »
    only one side has threatened to wipe out every single man, woman & child of the other side.

    only one side trains it´s children & mentally handicapped to murder innocent civilians.

    for every Palestinian refugee in 1948 .. there was a Jewish refugee from the Arabs countries & Iran ... Isreal accepted & integrated these refugees ... why didn´t the Musilm world do the same to the Plaestinian refugees?

    if Israel allows 1 million Arabs live inside its borders, why should 100,000 or so Jews not live in the West Bank,
    Not even worthy of a response tbh.


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    #36
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    comeraghs wrote: »
    if Israel allows 1 million Arabs live inside its borders, why should 100,000 or so Jews not live in the West Bank,

    Because that means the dispoessesion of Palestinians and their subjection to the state of Israel. Those Arabs were there before the state of Israel was founded, by the way.


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    #37
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Words and actions are different things. The three-week conflict last year claimed the lives of 1,400 Palestinians, and 13 Israelis.That seems very balanced!!! The UN has accused Israel of war crimes in the Goldstone Report. http://www.goldstonereport.org/


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    #38
    comeraghs
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭comeraghs


    Palestine shall be free, from the ocean to the sea, Is that not a threat to wipe out the 6 million Jewish people who live in Israel?

    There is lots of evidence that Hamas/Hizbollah have used mentally handicapped people as suicide bombers.

    The figures about refugee numbers is FACT.


    c´mon Saint? why is it not worthy of a response? or would you prefer to carry on with your hatred without looking at facts that don´t support your opinion?

    I have been to Israel & to the West Bank for work & I had some of these common mis-conceptions of the situation before I went there BUT a few months in the place gives you an idea of the reality of the situation,

    The FACT is that Israel isn´t going anywhere & The Palestinian leaders need to accept that and get on with building their nation rather than blaming Israel/USA for all their mostly self-inflicted problems


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    #39
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    comeraghs wrote: »
    Palestine shall be free, from the ocean to the sea, Is that not a threat to wipe out the 6 million Jewish people who live in Israel?

    emmmm...no?


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    #40
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    comeraghs wrote: »
    Palestine shall be free, from the ocean to the sea, Is that not a threat to wipe out the 6 million Jewish people who live in Israel?

    There is lots of evidence that Hamas/Hizbollah have used mentally handicapped people as suicide bombers.

    The figures about refugee numbers is FACT.


    c´mon Saint? why is it not worthy of a response? or would you prefer to carry on with your hatred without looking at facts that don´t support your opinion?

    I have been to Israel & to the West Bank for work & I had some of these common mis-conceptions of the situation before I went there BUT a few months in the place gives you an idea of the reality of the situation,

    The FACT is that Israel isn´t going anywhere & The Palestinian leaders need to accept that and get on with building their nation rather than blaming Israel/USA for all their mostly self-inflicted problems
    Still not worthy of a response. Good for you having been to Israel and the West Bank. I wouldn't make assumptions as to where others have been or not before you fall off your high horse. You're still talking absolute crap though.

    Oh, and who do you assume I hate?


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    #41
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    comeraghs wrote: »
    Palestine shall be free, from the ocean to the sea, Is that not a threat to wipe out the 6 million Jewish people who live in Israel?

    How is that a threat to kill 6 million Jews?


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    #42
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    How is that a threat to kill 6 million Jews?
    They may not put it so explicitly but aren't Hamas supported by the Palestinians and don't they want to replace Israel with an Islamic state?


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    #43
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    lugha wrote: »
    They may not put it so explicitly but aren't Hamas supported by the Palestinians and don't they want to replace Israel with an Islamic state?

    And up to recently the Irish constitution claimed 32 counties, and political parties like Fianna Fail still aspire to it. Were/are they claims to want to kill all protestants???


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    #44
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    And up to recently the Irish constitution claimed 32 counties, and political parties like Fianna Fail still aspire to it. Were/are they claims to want to kill all protestants???
    They did indeed lay such claims. And you might recall that those claims had to be set aside before the relative peace in NI that we now have became possible.
    Are you suggesting that Hamas will only consider peaceful means to eliminate Israel?


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    #45
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    lugha wrote: »
    They did indeed lay such claims. And you might recall that those claims had to be set aside before the relative peace in NI that we now have became possible.
    Are you suggesting that Hamas will only consider peaceful means to eliminate Israel?

    That's not the point, did those claims mean we wanted to kill all protestants??


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    #46
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    That's not the point, did those claims mean we wanted to kill all protestants??
    Comeragh used the term "wipe out" which granted has a sinister ring to it, but you are the one who equated this with kill.

    As for articles 2 and 3, I don't think the explicitly stated how this 32 county utopia were to come about but yes, I would say if the British refused to defend the Unionists (not protestants), and a UI was ours if were prepared to take it by force (i.e. kill people), I think we probably would have.
    I think if you make these kind of claims, then usually it is implicit that force will be used if necessary and practical to realize it.


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    #47
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    the saint 2 wrote: »
    Sorry but can you quote me something other than a line in a Wikipedia document that states that Israeli settlers in Hebron have a legal right to stay under international law? Please cite a credible source that states this right in law.

    The quote is from the Hebron protocol. Why don't you use google instead of asking me to find you multiple sources. I gave you a source.

    Will this do? it's the Israeli government website.
    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Protocol+Concerning+the+Redeployment+in+Hebron.htm

    I'm not sure you'll accept any source other than from a Hamas-run site.
    I'm not going to go into the "have been here for millenia" crap with you as it has no basis in the current situation or in law. There's nothing that prohibits Jews from living there. However, settling the citizens of an occupying power is illegal under international law, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.

    Indeed. Shame that wasn't the case pre-67 when it was Jews thrown out of East Jerusalem by Jordan. Not a peep about international law then.

    I think a people living on land for millennia is a very important part of the debate. After all, the 'palestinians' only claim to the land is based on legth of time, as they have never had a country or a rightful claim like the Jews did.


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    #48
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Sykes wrote: »
    I think a people living on land for millennia is a very important part of the debate. After all, the 'palestinians' only claim to the land is based on legth of time, as they have never had a country or a rightful claim like the Jews did.

    You speak of Jews as if they are a race, they are not it is a religion. There are Jews from all over the world


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    #49
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    How is that a threat to kill 6 million Jews?

    Umm, you're not seriously contesting that the Palestinians and surrounding countries and terrorist groups have vowed to destroy Israel, are you?

    That would be rather foolish.

    Nasser made plenty of speeches pre-67 about the annihilation of Israel, before they got their arse handed to them in 6 days .


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    #50
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Sykes wrote: »
    I think a people living on land for millennia is a very important part of the debate. After all, the 'palestinians' only claim to the land is based on legth of time, as they have never had a country or a rightful claim like the Jews did.
    The very concept of there being a Jewish state, along with the idea of a nation, has only existed since the late 1800s. And are you aware that one of the locations discussed for Israel was in the middle of Uganda?

    How hypocritical to argue that the Palestinians never had a country or rightful claim when the grounds for a Jewish one are so modern and manufactured.


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    #51
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    You speak of Jews as if they are a race, they are not it is a religion. There are Jews from all over the world
    The debate of Jews being a race or not is one that Jews themselves can't always agree on.

    Most opinion tends to see Jews as a race AND a religion.

    Under British law, Jews are recognised as a race (as are Sikhs). There is shared genes/DNA and other specifics which make Jews a racial group.


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    #52
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    In traditional anthropological studies there are actually 5 races.
    These are
    1) Mongoloid (Asian and American Indian)
    2) Caucasoid (European)
    3) Australoid (Australian and oceanic)
    4) Negroid (east African black)
    5) Capoid (south African black)

    don't see Jew there, do you?


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    #53
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    surprise surprise the magical number 6Million enters the debate :rolleyes:


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    #54
    Pete M.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Pete M.


    This thread seems to have gone the way of the debate surrounding the tragic situation, for all, in Israel & Palestine.
    Two sides intent on bickering over historical rights and inheritance, while people continue to die, at a ratio of around at least 500:1, palestinians to israelis.
    The Israeli governments policies with regard to how they treat the Palestinians is reprehensible and there are no apologoes as far as I can see.
    Some may refer to the anecdotal evidence (also known as propaganda) that the Palestinians train their children to be suicide bombers, while every child of Israel must serve in the IDF and are brainwashed and brutalised into hating their impoverished neighbours.


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    #55
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    taconnol wrote: »
    The very concept of there being a Jewish state, along with the idea of a nation, has only existed since the late 1800s. And are you aware that one of the locations discussed for Israel was in the middle of Uganda?

    I don't think you know much about Judaism. The belonging to Israel has been there ever since the birth of Judaism. There was a presence of Jews throughout, only in smaller numbers after they were exiled by the Romans.

    It does make me laugh though. Europeans went to the middle east and drove the Jews out of their homeland. Had that not happened, there would be no 'palestine'. 'Palestine' is a Roman fabrication.

    Then the Europeans persecuted the Jews they had exiled and chased them back to the middle east.

    Do you know what the graffiti said in 1930's Europe? "Go back to Israel"

    So they did. And now you have the same Europeans doing their best to destroy that country again.

    Out of desperation, a homeland for the Jews was discussed in other areas of course. That does not mean that Israel had been forgotten about. It was purely survival.

    How hypocritical to argue that the Palestinians never had a country or rightful claim when the grounds for a Jewish one are so modern and manufactured.
    How can Jewish claims to Israel be manufactured? why don't you take a trip over there and have a look at Jewish synagogues dating back 3,000 years. Israel is the birthplace of Judaism.

    It's like saying Muslims have no right to be in Mecca.


    I didn't "argue" that the 'palestinians' didn't have a country. That's a historical fact, there's no argument with that.

    If you're interested in learning more, may I suggest Sir Martin Gilbert's historical account of Israel's creation.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3HoAhitiog

    Very hard to find balanced documentaries, but Sir Martin Gilbert is well respected and is on the panel of the Iraq enquiry.


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    #56
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Pete M. wrote: »
    This thread seems to have gone the way of the debate surrounding the tragic situation, for all, in Israel & Palestine.
    Two sides intent on bickering over historical rights and inheritance, while people continue to die    , at a ratio of around at least 500:1, palestinians to israelis.
    The Israeli governments policies with regard to how they treat the Palestinians is reprehensible and there are no apologoes as far as I can see.
    Some may refer to the anecdotal evidence (also known as propaganda) that the Palestinians train their children to be suicide bombers, while every child of Israel must serve in the IDF and are brainwashed and brutalised into hating their impoverished neighbours.
    Thankfully you won't make it worse by piling in on one side or the other. :pac:


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    #57
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    Pete M. wrote: »
    This thread seems to have gone the way of the debate surrounding the tragic situation, for all, in Israel & Palestine.
    Two sides intent on bickering over historical rights and inheritance,
    Oh look guys, Pete M is coming in here all sensible and grown up. It appears he sees both sides, so I'm sure the rest of his post will be balanced

    while people continue to die, at a ratio of around at least 500:1, palestinians to israelis.
    Oh dear, so here you come in with your initial faux balanced view, only to turn it into another Israel bashing exercise.

    Can I remind you that we the allies (I don't mean Ireland of course, they were on the Nazi side) killed more Germans than they killed us. Does that mean we were the bad guys?

    Body count isn't an indication of who is right and who is wrong.


    Some may refer to the anecdotal evidence (also known as propaganda) that the Palestinians train their children to be suicide bombers, while every child of Israel must serve in the IDF and are brainwashed and brutalised into hating their impoverished neighbours.
    Can I just take you back to the opening of your post.

    "This thread seems to have gone the way of the debate surrounding the tragic situation, for all, in Israel & Palestine.
    Two sides intent on bickering     "



    Shame on us Pete. I mean you sure held up your side of being a neutral eh? :rolleyes:


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    #58
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Sykes wrote: »
    I don't think you know much about Judaism. The belonging to Israel has been there ever since the birth of Judaism. There was a presence of Jews throughout, only in smaller numbers after they were exiled by the Romans.
    So? I am of Viking origin, as are many Irish people. Do we, collectively, have rights to any land in Scandinavia upon which we can resurrect the Viking "nation"? No.
    Sykes wrote: »
    It does make me laugh though. Europeans went to the middle east and drove the Jews out of their homeland. Had that not happened, there would be no 'palestine'. 'Palestine' is a Roman fabrication.
    Oh what total nonsense. Now you're going back to 720 BC? According to your logic, what other "races" of people have rights to particular plots of land?
    Sykes wrote: »
    Out of desperation, a homeland for the Jews was discussed in other areas of course. That does not mean that Israel had been forgotten about. It was purely survival.
    Survival? If you're going to discuss this, then be honest about the facts. The creation of a Zionist state never had anything to do with survival.
    Sykes wrote: »
    How can Jewish claims to Israel be manufactured? why don't you take a trip over there and have a look at Jewish synagogues dating back 3,000 years. Israel is the birthplace of Judaism.
    Because zionism only arose in the 18th century - or are you going to rewrite that part of history as well?
    Sykes wrote: »
    I didn't "argue" that the 'palestinians' didn't have a country. That's a historical fact, there's no argument with that.
    Define country - no doubt you'll produce a narrow definition that suits your own argument.
    Sykes wrote: »
    Very hard to find balanced documentaries, but Sir Martin Gilbert is well respected and is on the panel of the Iraq enquiry.
    Don't worry - I already know about Sir Martin Gilbert.

    You know the funny thing is, I actually support the existence of the state of Israel but attitudes like yours make it very difficult.


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    #59
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Sykes wrote: »

    So they did. And now you have the same Europeans doing their best to destroy that country again.

    Please do tell us how Europe is trying to destroy Israel???? People and things change in the world all the time and if you have to go back 2000-3000 years to justify illegal, immoral and inhuman actions in the current day, it doesn't say much. 'The Romans kicked us out so we can kill people now'


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    #60
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sykes wrote: »

    Can I remind you that we the allies (I don't mean Ireland of course, they were on the Nazi side)

    Funny, I thought we were neutral. Source for that?


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    #61
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    I also support there being a state of Israel, but I also support a free state of Palestine. Israel now is doing to the Palestinians, what you complain was done to the Jews by others, does that make it right?


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