Ireland-Openside Flankers

rugbyman2015 · 03-01-2012 9:42am #1

Just thought I get the ball rolling on this one.

With all the talk recently about how important the openside flanker is now in modern rugby, should Ireland look to change their policy in the coming years and look for a genuine 7 in the mould of McCaw, Pocock, Warburton et al if we are to challenge for top honours in the game?

Personally, I think we're missing a thing by playing big ball carrying blindsides at 7 and thinking its a quick fix. In Aus/NZ the openside flanker is a unique position in its own right and is given respect when selecting a team.

JustinDee · 03-01-2012 9:56am

Swings and roundabouts really.
Aussie don't have any other (yet-to-become) international-quality fetchers behind Pocock.
When he is absent, their gameplan suffers as he is so prolific as second man to the tackle. McCaw's absence has greater effect on NZ as he is also their leader.

A gameplan not only determines selection of a player and type of player but is also in turn determined itself by the available player-pool.

molloyjh · 03-01-2012 12:08pm

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Just thought I get the ball rolling on this one.

With all the talk recently about how important the openside flanker is now in modern rugby, should Ireland look to change their policy in the coming years and look for a genuine 7 in the mould of McCaw, Pocock, Warburton et al if we are to challenge for top honours in the game?

Personally, I think we're missing a thing by playing big ball carrying blindsides at 7 and thinking its a quick fix. In Aus/NZ the openside flanker is a unique position in its own right and is given respect when selecting a team.

The way I see it is that your openside should always be hovering around the fringes of play (be it at the breakdown or on the ball carriers shoulder) to mop up ball, turn over ball, act as a link man etc Your blindside is more of a direct carrier like SOB or Ferris. They may have some of the skills of a blindside too but are not the complete package. Having a specialist openside allows the blindside focus more on the ball carrying element of their game, ensures everyone knows what their role is at all times and there is always someone filling the openside role. Think Jenno or Gleeson at Leinster. Both were classic opensides and there has been plenty of comment lately about how much more effective Leinster are when Jenno plays. And for as important as the groundhog part of their play is what most impressed me about Jenno last season was his support play.

Now I know from previous threads there is a point of view, shared by Justin, that the back-row can act as a single unit sharing the responsibilities and the number on the shirt is irrelevant. And while I agree that this can be effective I personally think specialised roles is preferable.

Unfortunately I don't think this is an opinion that is commonly held at national level. We have SOB at 7 for Ireland now (and increasingly at Leinster which I'm not fond of) after years of having Wallace there. Neither are true opensides. And with such little emphasis on this position I don't see us bringing many real 7s through the provinces either. Dom Ryan is being touted as Jennos heir to the 7 shirt at Leinster. It will be interesting to see how he develops over the next season or so. He's certainly a class act but whether he's a true openside remains to be seen.

But looking at the best 3 sides in the RWC last year (New Zealand, Australia and Wales) all 3 have a true openside. All 3 rely on him. And all 3 play an attractive, relatively expansive, game of rugby. For as much as Ireland could and should be aiming to play the same type of game the simple fact is we don't. So maybe we don't need a true 7 after all. The question then becomes should we really be playing the way we are, which of course is off topic!!!

pickarooney · 03-01-2012 12:30pm

molloyjh wrote: »

But looking at the best 3 sides in the RWC last year (New Zealand, Australia and Wales) all 3 have a true openside. All 3 rely on him. And all 3 play an attractive, relatively expansive, game of rugby.

And in two of the three cases that (over-)reliance cost them while NZ were lucky not to lose theirs.

France, on the other hand, don't have an openside flanker and their 6/7 (club/NT) was voted player of the year.

Tox56 · 03-01-2012 12:31pm

I was just about to say that all the World Cup Semi-Finalists had a world-class openside, coincidence?

Reloc8 · 03-01-2012 12:53pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I was just about to say that all the World Cup Semi-Finalists had a world-class openside, coincidence?

Not at all. Who plays open-side flanker is close to being determinative of the speed the game is played at. If you have a great one your recycle ball will be quick, and your link play better, and conversely their ball will be slower and their link play disrupted.

Look at how quickly a good team resets their defensive line after a line bust where the strike runner is finally tackled - fast recycle/link is the difference between a score or no score.

Alternatively in say Ireland's case, lacking a true 7, 12 & 13 are expected to contribute heavily to the work at the break down. A class 7 can decrease the need for this, freeing up your three-quarters especially on attack (on defence whoever is there has to try and make the play).

Is Thierry Dusatoir a genuine 'classic' 7 ? Perhaps not. Is he capable of playing open-side ? Of course he is.

Personally I think O'Brien would be well able at 7 given more play there...but you lose his contribution around the park from 6 where he has a freer role (see e.g. 2nd half in the 2011 H Cup final, when Leinster swapped him from 7 to 6).

molloyjh · 03-01-2012 3:51pm

pickarooney wrote: »

And in two of the three cases that (over-)reliance cost them

Did it? The Aussies went out against NZ with Pocock in the side and Wales lost Warburton, but losing a player and your captain like that will have a huge impact regardless of the position they play. They had plenty of chances to win that game even with Warburton off. It's not like he could have taken the drop goal that Jones bottled. I don't agree that the reliance on one position was the reason those teams didn't win the competition.

You could argue that missing Pocock was decisive in the Irish game but I'm not sure we'll ever know there.

wixfjord · 03-01-2012 4:05pm

This is an issue that I've a bee in my bonnet over, and, for me, the WC showed our over reliance on an unbalanced back row. This has been a problem for a while now, as we haven't had a real 7 since possibly Keith Gleeson, and in the 6Ns, we generally don't come up against one.

However, the three top SH sides have Pocock, Brussow and McCaw, and the one time we did come

Pocock's loss against Aus certainly made a big difference to the result of that game.

On the other hand, you couldn't drop any of SOB, Ferris or Heaslip, and Wallace before that, and we don't have an international class 7. Jennings and, gulp, Niall Ronan are good provincial players, but I think both are not good enough to oust the current guys.

It's a bit of a catch 22 situation.

Hopefully Dom Ryan will go on to be a top class 7, but he's not even a groundhog traditional 7 imo, more in the Joe Worsley mould of backrower.
We need a Steffan Armitage/Warburton type!

pickarooney · 03-01-2012 4:17pm

molloyjh wrote: »

You could argue that missing Pocock was decisive in the Irish game but I'm not sure we'll ever know there.

That's what I was pointing to in any case.

Tox56 · 03-01-2012 5:40pm

Forgive my ignorance for not really following his developement, but what type of player would be best to describe Dom Ryan? Is he good on the ground but better at carrying/something else, or is best in the breakdown but brings other attributes?

rugbyman2015 · 03-01-2012 5:53pm

what about o'mahony for munster? he seems to have that groundhog ability and has come on this season. he's been playing 6 lately but i wouldn't mind seeing him at 7 and raising a few eyebrows in the ireland management.

TBH, i can't see any genuine opensides coming to the fore for ireland until the coaches at underage level and the provincial selectors cop on. When we see coaches in schools rugby and at clubs encouraging their no.7 to play in the traditional mould of what the openside is all about then we will see change in the professional game. I know from talking with many schools coaches in leinster that they completely disregard the importance of an openside because they say those players wont get recognised for representative teams because of their size or style anyway, some even said they prefer a ball carrier anyday to a fetcher!

Can you imagine if a player like richie mccaw was growing up in ireland as a young lad and couldn't make it because the coach wanted a bigger and bulkier player at 7 to add weight to the scrum and carry the ball?

I know the openside is not the be all and end all in today's game but nonetheless they have become very important as the rules have changed and the game has evolved.

shuffol · 03-01-2012 6:44pm

Is it a cultural thing with Ireland that we dont produce opensides, have we had many top international ones down through the years apart from Fergus Slattery? Wales seem to have no problem producing them, Warburton, Martyn Williams, Tipuric is only 21 and looks an amazing prospect, Josh Navidi looks impressive too.

jacothelad · 03-01-2012 6:48pm

shuffol wrote: »

Is it a cultural thing with Ireland that we dont produce opensides, have we had many top international ones down through the years apart from Fergus Slattery? Wales seem to have no problem producing them, Warburton, Martyn Williams, Tipuric is only 21 and looks an amazing prospect, Josh Navidi looks impressive too.

Yes, many. Guys like Bill McKay, Noel Murphy, Nigel Carr, John O'Driscoll, Gordon Hamilton, Kieron Dawson, Mick Doyle, Kieth Gleeson, Denis McBride, Andy Ward.

Reloc8 · 03-01-2012 7:00pm

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Can you imagine if a player like richie mccaw was growing up in ireland as a young lad and couldn't make it because the coach wanted a bigger and bulkier player at 7 to add weight to the scrum and carry the ball?

Mmm - he'd likely be picked at centre.

totallegend · 03-01-2012 7:30pm

jacothelad wrote: »

shuffol wrote: »

Is it a cultural thing with Ireland that we dont produce opensides, have we had many top international ones down through the years apart from Fergus Slattery? Wales seem to have no problem producing them, Warburton, Martyn Williams, Tipuric is only 21 and looks an amazing prospect, Josh Navidi looks impressive too.

Yes, many. Guys like Bill McKay, Noel Murphy, Nigel Carr, John O'Driscoll, Gordon Hamilton, Kieron Dawson, Mick Doyle, Kieth Gleeson, Denis McBride, Andy Ward.

Time to get the Just For Men out again Jaco, your roots are showing... Dawson, Ward and McBride were decent operators but never world class, never in the
martyn Williams league. Can't really comment on the older guys.

JustinDee · 03-01-2012 7:48pm

Andy Ward and Kieron Dawson were world-class breakaways. Absolute hounds at breakdown but the former covered the blind side and the latter was very unlucky with injury. McBride was not a fetcher per se but one hell of a rover who harangued opposition halves and was quite a link man. He was about the number 7 role developed even further by legends Josh Kronfeld (best openside I've seen play) and Dave Wilson.

rugbyman2015 · 03-01-2012 8:47pm

what do people think of pocock compared to mccaw? pocock has the size and power but doesn't link much with the backline. mccaw on the other hand is always linking with his backs and is on the ball constantly but doesn't have the same strength to make as many turnovers. which kind of player would suit ireland more?

jacothelad · 03-01-2012 8:54pm

totallegend wrote: »

Time to get the Just For Men out again Jaco, your roots are showing... Dawson, Ward and McBride were decent operators but never world class, never in the
martyn Williams league. Can't really comment on the older guys.

Possibly true although Ward was often sensational. If he was playing in the current set up having had a full time career as a rugby player he would be a great asset. Martyn Williams was also more of a 'poacher' to steal a phrase from soccer than a McCaw type player.

Conas · 03-01-2012 10:04pm

We produce ball carrying 7s, but I don't really see this is as a problem like others do. When going forward it's fantastic, but in defence you really need someone to slow the ball down and turn it over which is fair enough. I think O'Brien can be a world class 7, but he just needs to be kept there, and the reality is he will be playing there for Ireland anyway. Ferris and Heaslip are certain to be starting at 6 and 8 if fit. Just leave O'Brien at 7 and let him settle into the role. I think he's very good on the ground, and can be a hell of a lot better given his size. But he's been moved around too much in my opinion at Leinster. .

porterbelly · 03-01-2012 10:43pm

Johnny O Connor would have won 50 or 60 odd caps at 7 if it wasn't for injuries and being out of favour because he played at Wasps and Eddie refused to pick him for awhile, and when he moved back to Connacht it further diminished his chances

I'd recommend coaches show their up and coming young openside talents videos of how he goes about his business.

wixfjord · 03-01-2012 10:50pm

porterbelly wrote: »

Johnny O Connor would have won 50 or 60 odd caps at 7 if it wasn't for injuries and being out of favour because he played at Wasps and Eddie refused to pick him for awhile, and when he moved back to Connacht it further diminished his chances

I'd recommend coaches show their up and coming young openside talents videos of how he goes about his business.

Hmmm I think that might be a little green tinted.
Concrete is as hard as ****, and a good groundhog 7, but was he really better than Wallace or Easterby at international level? No imo.
Also, was he out of favour at Wasps?

To drop one of our current backrow, you'd need a fairly tasty 7, but there should at least have been an option put in place before the WC, Jennings was given little or no chance.

porterbelly · 03-01-2012 11:02pm

wixfjord wrote: »

Hmmm I think that might be a little green tinted.
Concrete is as hard as ****, and a good groundhog 7, but was he really better than Wallace or Easterby at international level? No imo.
Also, was he out of favour at Wasps?

To drop one of our current backrow, you'd need a fairly tasty 7, but there should at least have been an option put in place before the WC, Jennings was given little or no chance.

Easterby wasn't an openside.

He lost his place at Wasps because he got injured and Tom Rees came and did so well that they kept playing him. He'd be England's 7 today if he wasn't crocked.

Jennings isn't up to international level imo. He's a good club player, a good facilitator for O Brien and Heaslip and good link man but he hasn't the dog and bit of madness in him to make an international openside.

rugbyman2015 · 03-01-2012 11:03pm

all I can really hope for is that coaches around the country look to encourage the development of opensides and that in the long term we will see the development of a star player with qualities like pocock or neil back who will go on to play for ireland.

imo at the moment there are pretty much no genuine opensides in the provinces at the moment that will be playing in the 2015/2019 world cups. i'd like to see willie falloon getting more action with ulster for the rest of the season.

to answer a previous question: dominic ryan is more of a 6. he's known for some big tackling and likes to run with the ball a lot. had a decent run there with leinster last jan/feb but struggled to really nail down 1st team place this season.

jacothelad · 03-01-2012 11:08pm

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

all I can really hope for is that coaches around the country look to encourage the development of opensides and that in the long term we will see the development of a star player with qualities like pocock or neil back who will go on to play for ireland.

imo at the moment there are pretty much no genuine opensides in the provinces at the moment that will be playing in the 2015/2019 world cups. i'd like to see willie falloon getting more action with ulster for the rest of the season.

to answer a previous question: dominic ryan is more of a 6. he's known for some big tackling and likes to run with the ball a lot. had a decent run there with leinster last jan/feb but struggled to really nail down 1st team place this season.

The trouble is that he doesn't have the bulk and physicality of the top 7s. Neither does Ali Birch although he might bulk up I suppose.

desertcircus · 04-01-2012 12:42am

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

to answer a previous question: dominic ryan is more of a 6. he's known for some big tackling and likes to run with the ball a lot. had a decent run there with leinster last jan/feb but struggled to really nail down 1st team place this season.

In fairness, though, he's not yet 22 years old, and he's at a club with Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Shane Jennings, Kevin McLaughlin and Rhys Ruddock also competing for a backrow jersey. He was desperately unlucky to get injured earlier this season, and by the time he was properly fit again the three who'd been away with the Ireland squad were back. When he was playing earlier this year, though, he was being picked at seven.

Absolutely bone-crunching tackler though. I think there's a video somewhere of him completely flattening Chris Cusiter when Ryan had just turned twenty.

Morf · 04-01-2012 12:53am

desertcircus wrote: »

Absolutely bone-crunching tackler though. I think there's a video somewhere of him completely flattening Chris Cusiter when Ryan had just turned twenty.

Completely blind-sided him and got pinged and yellow carded for harshly for not rolling away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqlrWcn_HmY

irishbucsfan · 04-01-2012 3:01am

Saying that a certain type of openside is vital is just unimaginative. Ireland's back row during the world cup was our best performing unit by quite a long way. We turned over just as much possession as anyone else and were probably more dangerous at the breakdown than anyone we played (absolutely including Wales, Heaslip outplayed Warburton at the breakdown by a mile in the QF). Not only that, but our defense on the openside of set pieces was faultless as far as I can remember. So what exactly would we have gained by playing a specialist openside?

How anyone could say we need to change anything in that back row is beyond me. Unless that person is George Hook of course. I play openside, and cannot Ireland gaining any benefit.

This whole topic is just another reason George Hook needs to be taken off the telly. Rubbish analysis which leads people who don't follow rugby regularly to talk sh1te!

Luckycharm · 04-01-2012 2:54pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Andy Ward and Kieron Dawson were world-class breakaways. Absolute hounds at breakdown but the former covered the blind side and the latter was very unlucky with injury. McBride was not a fetcher per se but one hell of a rover who harangued opposition halves and was quite a link man. He was about the number 7 role developed even further by legends Josh Kronfeld (best openside I've seen play) and Dave Wilson.

I wouldn't of called either WORLD class which IMHO would mean top 2/3 in their position at the time. Andy ward was alot better then Kieran Dawson who only got 21 caps and would have rated him a long way behind Keith Gleeson who was from roughly the same era.

JustinDee · 04-01-2012 3:34pm

Luckycharm wrote: »

I wouldn't of called either WORLD class which IMHO would mean top 2/3 in their position at the time. Andy ward was alot better then Kieran Dawson who only got 21 caps and would have rated him a long way behind Keith Gleeson who was from roughly the same era.

By World Class I just meant well capable of playing internationals. I'm not bothered who was better than who that much. Just yapping about two players who could play on the deck well. Dawson was the only one developed in Ireland too.
Gleeson was lined up ahead of George Smith as David Wilson's successor for the Wallabies and Andy Ward didn't come here until invited to play by Ballynahinch in his early twenties.

Luckycharm · 04-01-2012 3:52pm

JustinDee wrote: »

By World Class I just meant well capable of playing internationals. I'm not bothered who was better than who that much. Just yapping about two players who could play on the deck well. Dawson was the only one developed in Ireland too.
Gleeson was lined up ahead of George Smith as David Wilson's successor for the Wallabies and Andy Ward didn't come here until invited to play by Ballynahinch in his early twenties.

Going by your logic Anthony Horgan was World class

Was Dawson developed here he might have been schooled here played a little bit of club rugby but he went to play for London Irish at young age 21 where he played for 10 years.
Kieron Dawson (born 29 January 1975 in Bangor, County Down, Northern Ireland) He played for Bangor prior to his move to London Irish in 1996, he played 190 games in his 10 years at the Exiles.

buck65 · 04-01-2012 5:19pm

Must say in the past season or two I have taken a keen interest in blindsides, something I really didn't look at before but a good 7 just does enough to slow things down and even better one poaches the odd ball as well.
Alot of their work goes unnoticed - I think Niall Ronan has been very effective for Munster this season, sure, he's no international but I have been very impressed by his application and turnover ability. Seems to keep it very simple and doesn't get pinged too often.
Much maligned here, myself included, but he certainly has proven me wrong.

Ireland-Openside Flankers

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