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N7 - Newlands Cross upgrade

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    I think the real deal here is that the bridge should be 3x3 for now (as making it 4x4 going into 3x3 at the end of the bridge would be silly), but build it as 4x4 for futureproofing and just hatch off a lane for now.

    I think thats what most roads projects provide when been built. They don't build road for a short term capacity life span. Future proofing roads are done so that all the extra traffic can be sustained if it ever needed widening.

    The fact that it is so close to the M50 and NX is very busy, this road will have a very large catchment of population. I can garentee everyone as soon as NX is upgraded it will be already outdated as 3x3. Most of the M7 is due 3 lanes all the way to KIldare as it now stands. Newlands cross needs to be designed so it can handle the extra traffic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 281 ✭✭ITDept


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Okay lads, we're gonna give this thread another go.

    Please try and make sure it doesn't go the way the last thread went!

    If you get any news/updates or other info on this scheme, please post here!

    Thought I'd have a look at this thread as I frequently travel on these roads and thought someone might have some information as to plans, dates etc. As it turns out, it's just a place for people to bicker about who knows more about traffic counting...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    mysterious wrote: »
    I pay close attention to things you wouldn't be even able to comprehend.

    Please cut this crap.

    Now.

    Any more personal comments like this will result in a serious ban.

    I'm getting fed up of you constantly making comments such as this one.
    Heated debate is fine, personal insults are not.


    I'm fairly leniant as I did note several previous posts got close to personal, but I generally allow those so as not to stifle debate. However,outright insults are not acceptable.
    Thats what I'm trying to express, and while I've made my points I'm taking other aspects into consideration and not just soley relying on one source on this topic. I think people should understand this section of road is the busiest road after the M50. I'm aware traffic has dwindled at NX because it's a horrible bottleneck. But the fact is its well over 3x3 capacity. I think on future road openings and traffic growth along this road, its just common sense to either build 4x4 or give alot more room for expansion in the "future".

    Unfortunately this came across as you just ignoring official figures and inventing your own ones. I agree with the point you bolded and what Chris_5339762 suggested.
    ITDept wrote: »
    Thought I'd have a look at this thread as I frequently travel on these roads and thought someone might have some information as to plans, dates etc. As it turns out, it's just a place for people to bicker about who knows more about traffic counting...

    In the absense of concrete new data, speculative discussion tends to be what occurs in threads such as these. I think the debate is fine until it becomes soapboxing and mud-slinging. Hopefully, we can avoid this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Please cut this crap.

    Now.

    Any more personal comments like this will result in a serious ban.

    I'm getting fed up of you constantly making comments such as this one.
    Heated debate is fine, personal insults are not.


    I'm fairly leniant as I did note several previous posts got close to personal, but I generally allow those so as not to stifle debate. However,outright insults are not acceptable.



    Unfortunately this came across as you just ignoring official figures and inventing your own ones. I agree with the point you bolded and what Chris_5339762 suggested.

    MYOB made many comments to judge me that i don't know anything on this or I don't know anything about this road or that he knows for a fact he knows more about this road than I do.

    I've ignored the many comments so far.

    I've stressed my points and facts from official figures and use common knowledge and experience to assume the obvious average figures. I'm not making hard factual figures on this. I don't need too. I have looked at all the official figures and I also have taken other things into acount about the road some have not.

    That is what I've done on this topic. I'm making the case for the road been future proofed regardless of what the figures are now. Infact I think Newlands cross should be totally redesigned imo. That is just my opinion on it.

    I've also mentioned the fact the NX junction is severely congested and the oficial figures are not going to give an accurate proper traffic count for future traffic projections. Since most congested roads double in traffic numbers after it's upgraded. The NRA EIS ignored this facet that I've mentioned and brought up.

    I don't respect you exaggerating my comments as I'm insulting someone all the time or constantly. I don't appreciate that kind of judgment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    mysterious wrote: »
    I don't respect you exaggerating my comments as I'm insulting someone all the time or constantly. I don't appreciate that kind of judgment.



    If you dont agree with a moderator decision PM the moderators of the forum instead of posting it on a thread. It's in the the forum charter.



    Now the only facts we can find, are traffic counters on the NRA website o the N7 near Johnstown

    These are for 2008
    Mar: 67399
    April: 75460

    If you want to quote figures near 90,000 give a link to this to back up your statement.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,098 ✭✭✭rameire


    The following is an observation of figures I have compiled over the last 4 years.
    use them as you wish.

    The route I am talking about is The N7 Dublin Bound. ( Heading towards Dublin ) The time is Peak time of the Morning

    Starting at the junction for Baldonnell.
    In the Morning time, more traffic leave at this junction than join.
    Meaning a net loss to the N7
    Citywest Junction
    more traffic leave this junction than join
    meaning a net loss to the N7
    Outer Ring Road Junction
    more traffic leave this juction than join
    Meaning a net loss to the N7
    the difference here is huge as not much traffic join the n7 at this junction
    green Isle Junction
    More traffic Joins at this junction than leaves.
    amazingly, abit of traffic that leave at the previous junction rejoin the N7 here.
    Meaning a net gain to the N7
    Newlands Cross Junction
    More traffic join here then leave
    Meaning a net gain to the N7

    Between the Junction I started at and the Newlands Cross as a whole there is a Net Loss to the N7.

    The traffic count before Baldonnell junction is greater than the Traffic Count Just before the Newlands Cross junction.

    🌞 3.8kwp, 🌞 Split 2.28S, 1.52E. 🌞 Clonee, Dub.🌞



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Heres the official garb from the NRA tender documents, to add fuel to the fire.
    The Newlands Cross grade-separated junction will be constructed on-line and the project will require the construction of substantial temporary traffic diversions on the N7 Naas Road to enable the route to remain open to traffic during the course of the works. Traffic volumes on the N7 Naas Road (at Newlands Cross) currently average approximately 85,000 vehicles per day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    Heres the official garb from the NRA tender documents, to add fuel to the fire.

    That would include the traffic currently turning off/on the N7 at NX.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Heres the official garb from the NRA tender documents, to add fuel to the fire.

    Its higher from NX to the M50. It was stated many times this section of road is the busiest road after the M50.

    The M1 Turnapin has overtaken it now. As traffic is at 112,000 A.A.D.T


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Figures and stats aside, its hard to argue against making NX a 4x4 bridge, with 8 or even 10 lanes between it and the red cow.

    You can quote numbers till the cows come home, but look at the original M50 dual carriageway, and the catastrophe that turned out to be. No doubt they built it "according to statistical evidence" or what have you.

    Valuable Lesson #1: numbers don't tell the whole story.

    Numbers don't tell how the M7/8/9 motorway complex is nearing completion, and how long distance traffic will undoubtedly rise upon completion. Train times will be savaged and many will switch to motorways. Journeys will increase and people will generally be less averse to driving across Ireland for whatever purpose. I know I will.

    Numbers don't take into account the general population increase in Ireland and especially Dublin, and especially-especially, western Dublin. They also don't take into account the probability that the Dubln commuter belt will stretch farther southwest with the reduced journey times the motorways will bring.

    Yes a 3x3 bridge will probably suffice for now, but it will be more or less full when it opens. If not full, then very very busy all the time. And it will only get busier as the years go by. So how long will it last us, the taxpayer?

    I say that's a poor investment, when a 4x4 bridge will cost a little more but last far far longer and not need an costly retrofit upgrade and the ensuing costly traffic management. Again, look at the M50, a scenario that cost our country unfathomable amounts of money in the long run, even though it was originally cheaper. This is the exact same thing on a smaller scale.

    Yet we can't seem to learn from our mistakes and build in some extra headroom automatically. Its all very one-term politics, and no long term thinking.

    So for this reason, I think the 3x3 will happen, and the costly upgrade will need to happen too in 10-15 years time. And we the taxpayer will foot the bill for this lack of foresight as we have done in the past. Nothing has changed. Such is Ireland.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    That would include the traffic currently turning off/on the N7 at NX.

    There is very little left off traffic, since the N7 traffic has turn more than 120 degrees back up the Fonthill road towards Clondalkin, most left off traffic would use ORR or the R road just before NX. There is a small left off lane at NX (adjacent to the car sale room), and there is hardly any traffic using it because of the sharp degree turn back up the Fonthill road and it makes no sense for much traffic to use it. The Right off for Tallaght is used a lot, but still is only a few thousand a day (if even that).

    After the NX traffic is well over 85,000, since Clondalkin Catchment connects to the N7 and onto the M50.

    Either way 3x3 is almost at capacity. It needs to be future proofed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    rameire wrote: »
    The following is an observation of figures I have compiled over the last 4 years.
    use them as you wish.

    The route I am talking about is The N7 Dublin Bound. ( Heading towards Dublin ) The time is Peak time of the Morning

    Starting at the junction for Baldonnell.
    In the Morning time, more traffic leave at this junction than join.
    Meaning a net loss to the N7
    Citywest Junction
    more traffic leave this junction than join
    meaning a net loss to the N7
    Outer Ring Road Junction
    more traffic leave this juction than join
    Meaning a net loss to the N7
    the difference here is huge as not much traffic join the n7 at this junction
    green Isle Junction
    More traffic Joins at this junction than leaves.
    amazingly, abit of traffic that leave at the previous junction rejoin the N7 here.
    Meaning a net gain to the N7
    Newlands Cross Junction
    More traffic join here then leave
    Meaning a net gain to the N7

    Between the Junction I started at and the Newlands Cross as a whole there is a Net Loss to the N7.

    The traffic count before Baldonnell junction is greater than the Traffic Count Just before the Newlands Cross junction.

    What figures?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    The Right off for Tallaght is used a lot, but still is only a few thousand a day (if even that).

    Ten thousand would be a conservative estimate. 15000 is probably accurate

    Traffic on the Belgard Road at this end is over 25000 PCUs*. Some of these cross the N7 from Fonthill, and some come from the opposite direction on the N7 but most are making the right hand turn from the N7 inbound.


    *SDCC figure. Deny it all you want, its a fact.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    Ten thousand would be a conservative estimate. 15000 is probably accurate

    Traffic on the Belgard Road at this end is over 25000 PCUs*. Some of these cross the N7 from Fonthill, and some come from the opposite direction on the N7 but most are making the right hand turn from the N7 inbound.


    *SDCC figure. Deny it all you want, its a fact.

    lol it would be nowhere near that. There is no way in hell 10,000 would turn right and all just head towards Tallaght. You also have most traffic going straight through the N7 towards the M50 and heading south down there and onto the rest of Southern Dublin.

    The Belgard road ends in Tallaght town centre.

    The Belgard road traffic mainly goes straight up and down the Fonthill road. The turning movements turning left to N7 outbound and inbound is not that large at all. There even used to be bus stop put right in front of the Left turning lane to join the N7 SB.. I used this bus, and the bus would be park adjacent to the slip for five minutes and one or two cars may pass. That is it.

    I don't understand why you can't seem to understand that most people here want the NX junction future proofed to 4x4 and your just putting more of a personal belief system to swing to your argument.

    I passed the NX yesterday and traffic was backed up to the Geenisle hotel inbound and there was not one car turning right for Tallaght. You have 2 lanes there.

    It's a few thousands a day, not over 10,000. The Belgard road is mostly used for traffic going from Clondalkin, Nangor roads to Tallaght area.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Figures and stats aside, its hard to argue against making NX a 4x4 bridge, with 8 or even 10 lanes between it and the red cow.

    You can quote numbers till the cows come home, but look at the original M50 dual carriageway, and the catastrophe that turned out to be. No doubt they built it "according to statistical evidence" or what have you.

    Valuable Lesson #1: numbers don't tell the whole story.

    Numbers don't tell how the M7/8/9 motorway complex is nearing completion, and how long distance traffic will undoubtedly rise upon completion. Train times will be savaged and many will switch to motorways. Journeys will increase and people will generally be less averse to driving across Ireland for whatever purpose. I know I will.

    Numbers don't take into account the general population increase in Ireland and especially Dublin, and especially-especially, western Dublin. They also don't take into account the probability that the Dubln commuter belt will stretch farther southwest with the reduced journey times the motorways will bring.

    Yes a 3x3 bridge will probably suffice for now, but it will be more or less full when it opens. If not full, then very very busy all the time. And it will only get busier as the years go by. So how long will it last us, the taxpayer?

    I say that's a poor investment, when a 4x4 bridge will cost a little more but last far far longer and not need an costly retrofit upgrade and the ensuing costly traffic management. Again, look at the M50, a scenario that cost our country unfathomable amounts of money in the long run, even though it was originally cheaper. This is the exact same thing on a smaller scale.

    Yet we can't seem to learn from our mistakes and build in some extra headroom automatically. Its all very one-term politics, and no long term thinking.

    So for this reason, I think the 3x3 will happen, and the costly upgrade will need to happen too in 10-15 years time. And we the taxpayer will foot the bill for this lack of foresight as we have done in the past. Nothing has changed. Such is Ireland.


    1+.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    mysterious wrote: »
    What figures?
    You have no figures yourself other than a single traffic counter at Johnstown! Unbelievable!

    You still didn't answer my question: How often do you use Newlands Cross?

    (You said you use the N7 2-4 times a week, but the N7 runs all the way to Limerick so I presume you don't use Newlands at all or you would have said so)

    Rameire's observations tally with what I witnessed (My route was Newcastle to Greenhills, via NX 5 days a week, rush hour traffic...but on a motorbike so not so bad). I agree with his observations, you are not really in a position to make observations as you don't use the junction and are basing your entire argument on a traffic counter in the next county and then ignoring how different the N7 corridor is to the N4.

    You accept that the employment centres at Citywest etc. will drag traffic from the Dublin City direction (and actually use that to support your demand for a wider bridge) but you ignore the pull factor these employment centres create for traffic heading northbound on the N7 itself, very strange "logic" you're using here!


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    mysterious wrote: »
    I passed the NX yesterday and traffic was backed up to the Geenisle hotel inbound and there was not one car turning right for Tallaght. You have 2 lanes there.
    Really? Cos even off peak Google seems to have "caught" a couple of these rogue right turners...

    Linky

    So, at that random moment (proves nothing, just like your single visit yesterday of course) Google captured 11 vehicles approaching the junction from the west. 1 turned left, 2 turned right and 8 went straight ahead, so in fact 15% of vehicles turned off as Google flew overhead. Like I said, as useless as your infrequent, likely off peak, observations and traffic counter in the wrong county.

    If nobody was turning right, then they would not have added the second right turn lane ;) There used to be only one!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    I think eurolink are elimiated from selection?? can anybody confirm..? Ascon and Wills Consortium (gastro??) are selected, word on the ground anyhow..

    That is what I have heard as well. BAM Balfour Beaty and Gasta Roads are the two shortlisted candidates.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    There even used to be bus stop put right in front of the Left turning lane to join the N7 SB.. I used this bus, and the bus would be park adjacent to the slip for five minutes and one or two cars may pass. That is it.

    OK, now you're demented. That slip can back up to CRH or further for 90mins every evening. There is ALWAYS a stream of cars using it.
    mysterious wrote: »
    I don't understand why you can't seem to understand that most people here want the NX junction future proofed to 4x4 and your just putting more of a personal belief system to swing to your argument.

    Do they? On the old thread you didn't have a single person agreeing with you.
    mysterious wrote: »
    I passed the NX yesterday and traffic was backed up to the Geenisle hotel inbound and there was not one car turning right for Tallaght. You have 2 lanes there.

    You're lying. Simple as.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    mysterious wrote: »
    There is very little left off traffic, since the N7 traffic has turn more than 120 degrees back up the Fonthill road towards Clondalkin, most left off traffic would use ORR or the R road just before NX. There is a small left off lane at NX (adjacent to the car sale room), and there is hardly any traffic using it because of the sharp degree turn back up the Fonthill road and it makes no sense for much traffic to use it. The Right off for Tallaght is used a lot, but still is only a few thousand a day (if even that).

    After the NX traffic is well over 85,000, since Clondalkin Catchment connects to the N7 and onto the M50.

    Either way 3x3 is almost at capacity. It needs to be future proofed.

    You are aware that for the purposes of calculating the AADT that will use the bridge any traffic turning onto/off the N7 are excluded.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I think at this stage everyone's point has been well and truly made. Some feel that three lanes are sufficient, some favour more. Points have been made in support of both positions. Good! But the discussion is getting to the stage where it's becoming frustrating and annoying and where it's turning casual readers and newcomers off the forum.

    This forum cannot afford to have any more threads go the way of the Athlone Bypass redesignation discussion or the previous NX thread. There is an anti-soapboxing rule in the charter, and believe me, I put it in there for a reason. If you are labouring under the delusion that you can say whatever you want here, then let me disabuse you of that error right now: YOU CAN'T.

    In my judgement this discussion has become a soapboxing spree. It stops now, or I will issue a permaban.

    /MOD


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,098 ✭✭✭rameire


    mysterious wrote: »
    What figures?

    Figures I have compiled.

    As regards the upgrade of the junction.
    I think it would be better off spending the extra hundred million to build a few more lanes as this junction is going to cause a hell of a lot of nuisance, it will be in comparison to the port tunnel being built at Whitehall and the M50 upgrade.
    The problem i see is.
    Heading towards Dublin along the N7, the traffic currently is jamming from the Mad cow roundabout and further on in.
    If we add an extra lane inbound to make four at Newlands Cross, we will then have an extra lane of traffic heading at the same time towards a stand still.
    this traffic will cause more weaving and more hassel in the long run.
    If we keep it at three lanes inbound, there will be less of a sudden shock to the traffic.

    If we add an extra either side going away from Dublin, it is going to be hard to find the extra space for most of the route outbound.

    🌞 3.8kwp, 🌞 Split 2.28S, 1.52E. 🌞 Clonee, Dub.🌞



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    rameire wrote: »
    Figures I have compiled.

    As regards the upgrade of the junction.
    I think it would be better off spending the extra hundred million to build a few more lanes as this junction is going to cause a hell of a lot of nuisance, it will be in comparison to the port tunnel being built at Whitehall and the M50 upgrade.
    The problem i see is.
    Heading towards Dublin along the N7, the traffic currently is jamming from the Mad cow roundabout and further on in.
    If we add an extra lane inbound to make four at Newlands Cross, we will then have an extra lane of traffic heading at the same time towards a stand still.
    this traffic will cause more weaving and more hassel in the long run.
    If we keep it at three lanes inbound, there will be less of a sudden shock to the traffic.

    If we add an extra either side going away from Dublin, it is going to be hard to find the extra space for most of the route outbound.
    No it won't. It simply means a job better done.

    A an extra lane is 3.5 metres either side. There is plenty of room there as it is to have a wider bridge. The NX upgrade is a cheap crappy design and it is trying to take as little land as it possibly can to upgrade the road.

    It's just another futile Irish attempt of making a half job fit a full job.

    Making the overbridge wider been compared to the Port Tunnel is just like comparing the size of USA to Hong Kong.

    You have shown no figures to back up your points.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    mysterious wrote: »

    You have shown no figures to back up your points.

    :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,098 ✭✭✭rameire


    mysterious wrote: »
    No it won't. It simply means a job better done.

    A an extra lane is 3.5 metres either side. There is plenty of room there as it is to have a wider bridge. The NX upgrade is a cheap crappy design and it is trying to take as little land as it possibly can to upgrade the road.

    It's just another futile Irish attempt of making a half job fit a full job.

    Making the overbridge wider been compared to the Port Tunnel is just like comparing the size of USA to Hong Kong.

    You have shown no figures to back up your points.

    do you even read before you reply.
    read it again calmly, please just read again and read what i said.

    in simples.
    i said
    build it properly now.
    the reason i said this is because the disruption will be in comparison to what i said.
    i didnt say adding an extra lane will be the major disruption.
    i also never said there was no room for the extra lane on the bridge
    what i meant to describe was that there is not much room heading away from newlands cross away from dublin

    id like to see your figures.

    as regards mine.
    im not here to teach you
    do your own research, i have done mine and it has given me the insight i have.

    🌞 3.8kwp, 🌞 Split 2.28S, 1.52E. 🌞 Clonee, Dub.🌞



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Mysterious has been permabanned for being a constant disruption on the forum. That is all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭emfifty


    about time!:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Can't say I'll miss him. Thanks mods. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭popebenny16


    is there any news about newlands cross?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I cant conceive why Newlands was left out of the Naas Road Widening. What else did they think would happen when they removed every other traffic light?


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