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Undertaking in bus lanes.

13567

Comments

  • #62
    LFCFan
    Moderators Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭LFCFan


    Try driving on the M1 any weekday morning in rush hour and see just how ridiculous the 'undertaking' law could potentially be if the interpretation of slow moving traffic was around 30kph. I try my best to always drive in the inner most lane I can and only use the middle and outer lane (in a 3 lane road) and outer lane (in a 2 lane road) to overtake. If I am on the M1 doing 120kph on the inside lane and I come across a queue of traffic in the overtaking lane doing 100kph, am I supposed to:

    1. Drop to 100kph and stay in the inside lane
    2. Move in to the overtaking lane and join the queue of traffic doing 100kph
    3. Continue driving at 120kph in the inside lane, meaning I am 'undertaking' the slow(er) moving traffic in the overtaking lane

    For me the only option that makes sense is option 3. Otherwise you either end up with me blocking the inside lane for any traffic that may want to undertake whether it's legal or not (I'm not on the road to police others) or I just join an every increasing queue of traffic on the overtaking lane because some idiot at the head of said queue doesn't realize the overtaking lane is just that, an 'OVERTAKING' lane, not a driving lane.

    Irish roads are the reason I love driving in America. The freedom to drive like a responsible driver, using indicators and mirrors, is a breath of fresh air.


  • #63
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    LFCFan wrote: »
    Try driving on the M1 any weekday morning in rush hour and see just how ridiculous the 'undertaking' law could potentially be if the interpretation of slow moving traffic was around 30kph. I try my best to always drive in the inner most lane I can and only use the middle and outer lane (in a 3 lane road) and outer lane (in a 2 lane road) to overtake. If I am on the M1 doing 120kph on the inside lane and I come across a queue of traffic in the overtaking lane doing 100kph, am I supposed to:

    1. Drop to 100kph and stay in the inside lane
    2. Move in to the overtaking lane and join the queue of traffic doing 100kph
    3. Continue driving at 120kph in the inside lane, meaning I am 'undertaking' the slow(er) moving traffic in the overtaking lane

    For me the only option that makes sense is option 3. Otherwise you either end up with me blocking the inside lane for any traffic that may want to undertake whether it's legal or not (I'm not on the road to police others) or I just join an every increasing queue of traffic on the overtaking lane because some idiot at the head of said queue doesn't realize the overtaking lane is just that, an 'OVERTAKING' lane, not a driving lane.

    Irish roads are the reason I love driving in America. The freedom to drive like a responsible driver, using indicators and mirrors, is a breath of fresh air.

    Sadly...under Irish law 1 and 2 are your options and 3 is illegal...not right..but is not allowed.


  • #64
    LFCFan
    Moderators Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭LFCFan


    whomitconcerns wrote: »
    Sadly...under Irish law 1 and 2 are your options and 3 is illegal...not right..but is not allowed.

    Option 1 would mean I am not allowing the flow of traffic and is illegal and option 2 is just beyond ridiculous and makes an ass of the law. The only way the undertaking law could ever make sense is if people actually knew how to drive in motorways in the first place.

    Why can't they use those 'time to junction' electronic signs to tell drivers to get the fcuk out of the overtaking lane unless you are overtaking.

    As for the whole bus lane argument. Of course buses can drive in them faster than the regular traffic. That's the whole reason for them in the first place. Otherwise, what's the point in them at all?


  • #65
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    LFCFan wrote: »
    Option 1 would mean I am not allowing the flow of traffic and is illegal and option 2 is just beyond ridiculous and makes an ass of the law. The only way the undertaking law could ever make sense is if people actually knew how to drive in motorways in the first place.

    Why can't they use those 'time to junction' electronic signs to tell drivers to get the fcuk out of the overtaking lane unless you are overtaking.

    As for the whole bus lane argument. Of course buses can drive in them faster than the regular traffic. That's the whole reason for them in the first place. Otherwise, what's the point in them at all?

    I agree completely. I drive M1, M50, N7 regularly...The N7 90% of the time you can do full speed on left lane while right 2 lanes are doing 70-90kph

    M50 I have given up changing lanes twice every time...its just a pita. I saw someone on this forum argue the other day that they always droive in middle lane as left lane is for slow drivers only and why should they have to be constantly overtaking...

    The lack of enforcement of the law is the problem...


  • #66
    cormac_byrne
    Registered Users Posts: 487 ✭✭cormac_byrne


    corktina wrote: »
    I thought the bus lane was treated as a separate road and you join at the start and leave at the end, not crossing the solid white line in between. When the lane is not in use, the white line "disappears" and the lane becomes the driving lane and you may not undertake

    Yes that's exactly how it works, but must people don't know it.
    The RSA could clarify this but for some reason they won't.


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  • #67
    LFCFan
    Moderators Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭LFCFan


    whomitconcerns wrote: »
    M50 I have given up changing lanes twice every time...its just a pita. I saw someone on this forum argue the other day that they always droive in middle lane as left lane is for slow drivers only and why should they have to be constantly overtaking....

    I've had drivers beep me out of it or give me the finger because I've moved in and out of the driving lane to overtake when they were sitting in the overtaking lane 5 or 6 car lengths back not even attempting to overtake. The amount of cars you see joining the M50 from slip roads and going straight in to the middle lane when there is nothing in the inside lane is unreal. The biggest problem with Irish motorways is that they are a relatively new thing and there is nothing in our driving lessons that prepare us so most people just haven't a clue what way they are supposed to drive on them.


  • #68
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    yep i had a car try box me in out of anger as I pulled into overtaking lane with a LOT of space, as soon as I indicated and moved into lane he put foot to the floor and was probably 4 car lengths behind as i pulled back to driving lane. He then proceeded to gesture at me out the window and block the middle lane so i was stuck behind another slowbie in front of me in lane...I wasnt realy interested in engaging so i switched to S on gearbox and flew away from him...some people..


  • #69
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,088 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Skittlebrau wrote: »
    Exactly.. I would agree 30kph is slow in a 50kph zone. I also think 80kph is slow (and more dangerous) in a 100 or 120 kph zone.

    But the problem is... that's just my opinion.

    How can 80km/h be slow in 100 or 120km/h zones, even though this 80km/h is maximum allowed speed for many vehicles?


  • #70
    Holsten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,971 ✭✭✭Holsten


    I undertake in the bus lanes all the time as most people are too stupid to use them.

    You're meant to keep left when driving, and when the lanes are open they are the left lane so you should be in them unless overtaking.


  • #71
    Skittlebrau
    Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭Skittlebrau


    CiniO wrote: »
    How can 80km/h be slow in 100 or 120km/h zones, even though this 80km/h is maximum allowed speed for many vehicles?

    ???

    If a car is sitting in the middle lane (of 3) on a 120k motorway and only doing 80k, I'd say its going slow. Don't think I'd be the only one either.


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  • #72
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,088 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Well seeing as I have been driving on Irish and European roads with a full clean driving licence for over 32 years and I have never been pulled by the Garda for my manner of driving or ever received a fine for it, I imagine my interpretation of the RotR and how to apply them must be just fine.

    See over last 7 years in Ireland I've been speeding everyday, and guess what - I've never been pulled by Garda for my manner of driving or ever received a fine for it.
    Does it make speeding legal?

    Your interpretation of law and RotR is incorrect.
    Fact that you weren't fined for driving like it, is another matter.


  • #73
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,088 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Skittlebrau wrote: »
    ???

    If a car is sitting in the middle lane (of 3) on a 120k motorway and only doing 80k, I'd say its going slow. Don't think I'd be the only one either.

    Every car or van towing a trailer is limited by law to 80km/h (also on motorways).
    So if that's their maximum permitted speed, that can't be considered as slow or dangerous.


  • #74
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,088 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    djimi wrote: »
    You sure about that?
    I wouldn't bet my house on it, but I'm pretty sure that's what the law says.
    Im pretty sure that buses can go any speed they want (within the limits obviously) irrespective of what the cars in the driving lanes are doing. While bus lanes are operational they are not part of the main driving carraigeway (ie private cars are not allowed to use them), so I have no idea why normal rules of undertaking would apply? If anything, a bus lane would follow the same rules as a slip road (seperate carraigeway on which its perfectly legal to pass cars that are on your right).

    All that would be true, if - as you say - bus lanes would be treated as separate carriageway.

    But it isn't.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html
    "carriageway" means that part of a roadway on which traffic proceeds in a single direction;
    "roadway" has the meaning assigned to it by section 2(1) of the Act of 1993;

    From Act of 1993
    “roadway” means that portion of a road which is provided primarily for the use of vehicles;

    My understanding of it, is that bus lane is definitely part of carriageway.
    I also can't see anything indicating what you said that slip roads would be separate carriageway. Unless there is anything separately defined somewhere else, I think they are also part of carriageway, and therefore undertaking on slipways is also illegal.


    And returning to bus lanes here's the definition:

    "bus lane" and "contra flow bus lane" have the meanings assigned to them in article 32;
    32. (1) A bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 028 or traffic sign number RUS 029 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024, and a contra flow bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 030 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024.

    (2) A person shall not enter a bus lane with a vehicle other than an omnibus or a pedal cycle during the period of operation of the bus lane which shall be indicated on an information plate.

    (3) A person shall not enter a contra flow bus lane with a vehicle other than an omnibus.

    (4) A person shall not enter a bus only street with a vehicle other than an omnibus except for the purpose of access.

    (5) ( a ) Sub-articles (1) and (2) shall not apply to a vehicle crossing a with flow bus lane or a contra flow bus lane solely for the purpose—
    (i) of entering or leaving premises or property adjacent to such a bus lane, or
    (ii) of entering or leaving a road inset adjacent to such a bus lane in order to load or unload goods.
    ( b ) Sub-article (2) shall not apply to a taxi or a wheelchair accessible taxi which is being used in the course of business.


  • #75
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    CiniO wrote: »
    See over last 7 years in Ireland I've been speeding everyday, and guess what - I've never been pulled by Garda for my manner of driving or ever received a fine for it.
    Does it make speeding legal?

    Your interpretation of law and RotR is incorrect.
    Fact that you weren't fined for driving like it, is another matter.

    Do you not think telling people what they should or should not be doing while they are driving, while you admit to "speeding every day" just a tad hypocritical.


  • #76
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,088 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Do you not think telling people what they should or should not be doing while they are driving, while you admit to "speeding every day" somewhat hypocritical.

    We are discussing the law here.
    I'm not telling anyone what to do or not do. And I never did. Everyone has their own brain to decide what to do.
    I'm just telling you, that your understanding of undertaking is incorrect.


  • #77
    Skittlebrau
    Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭Skittlebrau


    CiniO wrote: »
    Every car or van towing a trailer is limited by law to 80km/h (also on motorways).
    So if that's their maximum permitted speed, that can't be considered as slow or dangerous.

    You asked for an example of when 80k can be slow and I gave you one.

    I get your point but a car towing a trailer is doing 80k in the overtaking lane on a motorway is possibly one of the most dangerous things I've ever heard of. And I would also argue still constitute 'slow' notwithstanding the fact that its the max that its permitted. It's the speed of the traffic in the lane that's relevant not an individual vehicle.


  • #78
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,088 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Skittlebrau wrote: »
    You asked for an example of when 80k can be slow and I gave you one.

    I get your point but a car towing a trailer is doing 80k in the overtaking lane on a motorway is possibly one of the most dangerous things I've ever heard of. And I would also argue still constitute 'slow' notwithstanding the fact that its the max that its permitted. It's the speed of the traffic in the lane that's relevant not an individual vehicle.

    You said that 80km/h on 120km/h roads were slow and dangerous, and used it as example what slow moving traffic is.

    I disagree.
    On motorways limits are:
    -car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
    -trucks (rigid and artic) - 90km/h
    -buses - 100km/h.
    -everything else - 120km/h

    On double carriageways:
    -car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
    -trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
    -buses - 100km/h.
    -everything else - 100km/h

    On national roads:
    -car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
    -trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
    -buses - 80km/h.
    -everything else - 100km/h

    On regional and local roads:
    -car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
    -trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
    -buses - 80km/h.
    -everything else - 80km/h

    So my point is, that speeds of 80km/h can't be treated as slow moving traffic, even on motorways.

    Indeed - cars and vans towing trailers and trucks are prohibited to use most right lane of motorways, which effectively prohibits them to overtake on 2 lane motorways.
    But on 3 lane motorways they can use middle lane for overtaking.
    If someone after overtaking fails to return to left driving lane at 80km/h, then undertaking him just because he is doing 80km/h is not legal, as that vehicle can't be considered to be "slow moving traffic".


  • #79
    Skittlebrau
    Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭Skittlebrau


    CiniO wrote: »
    You said that 80km/h on 120km/h roads were slow and dangerous, and used it as example what slow moving traffic is.

    I disagree.
    On motorways limits are:
    -car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
    -trucks (rigid and artic) - 90km/h
    -buses - 100km/h.
    -everything else - 120km/h

    On double carriageways:
    -car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
    -trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
    -buses - 100km/h.
    -everything else - 100km/h

    On national roads:
    -car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
    -trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
    -buses - 80km/h.
    -everything else - 100km/h

    On regional and local roads:
    -car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
    -trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
    -buses - 80km/h.
    -everything else - 80km/h

    So my point is, that speeds of 80km/h can't be treated as slow moving traffic, even on motorways.

    Indeed - cars and vans towing trailers and trucks are prohibited to use most right lane of motorways, which effectively prohibits them to overtake on 2 lane motorways.
    But on 3 lane motorways they can use middle lane for overtaking.
    If someone after overtaking fails to return to left driving lane at 80km/h, then undertaking him just because he is doing 80km/h is not legal, as that vehicle can't be considered to be "slow moving traffic".

    You're really being impressively obtuse at this stage. I never said that all instances of 80k on a motorway is slow but gave an example of when it can be.

    I also disagree with your last sentence. I think it can still be considered to be slow moving notwithstanding that it isn't permitted to go any faster. If you can point me to some caselaw that says otherwise please do. Otherwise it's just your interpretation.


  • #80
    enda1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭enda1


    In my opinion slow is anything below the posted speed limit. So vroom vroom see ye if yer in the RH lane.


  • #81
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,088 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Skittlebrau wrote: »
    You're really being impressively obtuse at this stage. I never said that all instances of 80k on a motorway is slow but gave an example of when it can be.

    I also disagree with your last sentence. I think it can still be considered to be slow moving notwithstanding that it isn't permitted to go any faster. If you can point me to some caselaw that says otherwise please do. Otherwise it's just your interpretation.

    Of course it's just my own interpretation, but hardly anyone is going to classify 80km/h on motorway as slow moving traffic.


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  • #82
    enda1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭enda1


    CiniO wrote: »
    Of course it's just my own interpretation, but hardly anyone is going to classify 80km/h on motorway as slow moving traffic.

    Speed is relative. If it's slower than me it's slow.

    Vroom vroom


  • #83
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,787 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    Skittlebrau wrote: »
    You're really being impressively obtuse at this stage. I never said that all instances of 80k on a motorway is slow but gave an example of when it can be.

    I also disagree with your last sentence. I think it can still be considered to be slow moving notwithstanding that it isn't permitted to go any faster. If you can point me to some caselaw that says otherwise please do. Otherwise it's just your interpretation.

    SI 294/964 defines a "slow vehicle" as
    (a) a vehicle which is not mechanically propelled,
    (b) a mechanically propelled vehicle to which an ordinary speed limit of not more than twenty miles per hour applies, and
    (c) a mechanically propelled vehicle so constructed or adapted as to be incapable of exceeding 24 miles per hour on a level road ;

    While that is not a definition of "slow moving traffic" I suggest it's a good indicator that the law considers "slow" as being at the lower end of the speed scale.


  • #84
    visual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,268 ✭✭✭visual


    CiniO wrote: »
    Of course it's just my own interpretation, but hardly anyone is going to classify 80km/h on motorway as slow moving traffic.

    Its slow enough that if they aren't in the driving lane that I give them a flash of the lights as I approch and a beep of the horn if they wont yeild


  • #85
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    slimjimmc wrote: »
    SI 294/964 defines a "slow vehicle" as


    While that is not a definition of "slow moving traffic" I suggest it's a good indicator that the law considers "slow" as being at the lower end of the speed scale.

    out of date though. Miles per hour is no longer a valid unit so unless there is a km/h update I'd consider that redundant and hence irrelevant.
    CiniO wrote: »
    Of course it's just my own interpretation, but hardly anyone is going to classify 80km/h on motorway as slow moving traffic.

    everyone is going to consider that slow, relatively speaking. On a motorway 80 is certainly slow.
    On a national road where you're likely to find cyclists or tractors etc 20 would be considered slow but I'd no longer consider 80 slow in comparison to what you could expect on the road.


  • #86
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    CiniO wrote: »
    All that would be true, if - as you say - bus lanes would be treated as separate carriageway.

    But it isn't.

    My understanding of it, is that bus lane is definitely part of carriageway.
    I also can't see anything indicating what you said that slip roads would be separate carriageway. Unless there is anything separately defined somewhere else, I think they are also part of carriageway, and therefore undertaking on slipways is also illegal.


    And returning to bus lanes here's the definition:

    From your definitions, a roadway is a portion of the road that is provided for the use of vehicles, and seeing as how general traffic is not permitted to use an active buslane, I think its fair enough to say that it is a sepereate roadway/carraigeway (I might have the terminology wrong) from the main driving lanes.

    I cant remember where I have seen it written and I dont have time/inclination to go searching through the traffic act, but I am 99% certain that it is not illegal to "undertake" on a slip road.


  • #87
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    CiniO wrote: »
    Of course it's just my own interpretation, but hardly anyone is going to classify 80km/h on motorway as slow moving traffic.

    The key to the defintion is slow moving traffic. If there is a line of cars in the right hand lane doing 80km/h and a line of cars in the left hand lane doing 85km/h then I have no doubt that for the purpose of this definition that would be considered to be slow moving traffic on a motorway, and as such nobody in the left lane is going to be prosecuted for passing out those in the right hand lane.

    Maybe thats just my interpretation, but its clear as day in my head what slow moving traffic means, and Im pretty sure anyone who drives on any kind of regular basis also knows what it means!


  • #88
    Yakuza
    Registered Users Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭Yakuza


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    out of date though. Miles per hour is no longer a valid unit so unless there is a km/h update I'd consider that redundant and hence irrelevant.

    Another deliberately obtuse comment. Unless that statute has been replaced by a more modern version, it's still on the books. The law is still the law regardless of whether the units are miles per hour, feet per second or astronomical units per solar year.


  • #89
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Yakuza wrote: »
    Another deliberately obtuse comment. Unless that statute has been replaced by a more modern version, it's still on the books. The law is still the law regardless of whether the units are miles per hour, feet per second or astronomical units per solar year.

    That definition is of a slow vehicle, not slow moving traffic. Its not the same thing.


  • #90
    degsie
    Registered Users Posts: 8,727 ✭✭✭degsie


    I love bus lanes and always use then outside the posted hours. I find it gets me from A to B much faster :)


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  • #91
    greenflash
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    degsie wrote: »
    I love bus lanes and always use then outside the posted hours. I find it gets me from A to B much faster :)

    Yep. You can't beat the feeling of hopping into the bus lane on the Malahide Road at 19.00.01 and cruising past untold amount of stop start stress heads.

    What bugs the crap out of me though is when impatient, selfish little bastards pop into the bus lane 300 metres before it changes into a turn left lane and speed past other cars further up with their indicators on, just about to move left. This happens approx every 2.4 seconds at Clarehall.


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