France to double TGV network, switch funding from roads

OTK · 30-10-2007 1:54pm #1

Sarkozy announced last thursday that the TGV network would be doubled in length with 2,000km of new high speed lines and paid for with reductions in road building. Trans-national truck cargo is to be moved to rail and water freight. He also announced an extra 1,500km of regional light rail but I think this figure may include bike and bus lanes. Maybe Calina could translate?
http://www.elysee.fr/documents/index.php?cat_id=7

murphaph · 30-10-2007 2:28pm

It roughly translates as "we've got balls in this government and won't let the French Road Haulage Association stamp on us".

Seriously though-we're being left behind by continental Europe. They have pretty much built their roads and now they can afford to look at massive expansions of HSR. Germany's ICE is expanding also. We will be left on an island with very high costs to air travel prohibiting many aspects of trade whilst the continentals (and even possibly british) whizz between cities on HSR.

paulm17781 · 30-10-2007 2:39pm

The thing is though, as you said, they've already built their roads. We need to be pumping money in to our rail network but our road network should also be upgraded. The problem is the 80 / 20 split (is that still the case?).

murphaph · 30-10-2007 2:42pm

Totally agree, we need our roads to be up to scratch too, which they aren't by any stretch of the imagination.

The problem often goes back to a hysterical media response to any any and all transport projects that extend beyond putting tar in a pothole.

The govt could build 100 specialist cancer centres, 200 new hospitals and 1000 new schools with one-to-one tuition and it wouldn't be questioned, but ask to lay a few miles of new tramline and..........

penexpers · 30-10-2007 2:52pm

How much of what was announced has been previously announced though? There's quite a few TGV projects underway already.

ardmacha · 30-10-2007 3:48pm

How much of what was announced has been previously announced though? There's quite a few TGV projects underway already.

A politician announce the same project more than once. Surely not.

Calina · 30-10-2007 4:27pm

OTK wrote: »

Sarkozy announced last thursday that the TGV network would be doubled in length with 2,000km of new high speed lines and paid for with reductions in road building. Trans-national truck cargo is to be moved to rail and water freight. He also announced an extra 1,500km of regional light rail but I think this figure may include bike and bus lanes. Maybe Calina could translate?
http://www.elysee.fr/documents/index.php?cat_id=7

This is the key paragraph:

rough translation of what Sarkozy said wrote:

I say that the State was wrong to withdraw from the development of urban transport. The result today is of course, congestion in our town and city centres. I will re-introduce funding from the State to construct bus lanes, bicycle lanes and tram ways. Outside the Paris regions more 1500km of these routes will be built.

The TGV is a major benefit. We will construct more than 2000km of new line. I will also look into using rail as a conduit for freight more which should see 2 million trucks removed from French roads by 2020.

We are going to rehabilitate river and sea transport. France has excellent resources in this area. I am proposing an investment programme in the area of river transport which will take one million trucks from the roads between here and 2020. And I also undertake work in our ports so that more trade comes in via ports and not via road. This will need to be discussed with various trade union organisations.

Ultimately given the plans for TGV in various parts of France that have not yet been implemented due funding reasons, I'd be wondering what 2000km he's talking about too.

Incidentally, didn't have a dictionary to hand, sorry.

OTK · 30-10-2007 5:47pm

Thanks, so the 1500km is probably not just light rail but may include bus and bike lanes. I'm not sure if "2000km of new line" means new rail routes or line upgrades to LGV from conventional track. Maybe these ambiguities are intentional.

If these are projects being re-announced, then at least it makes them more likely to happen.

E92 · 30-10-2007 7:35pm

While I've nothing against what Sarkozy did(I think its a great idea actually and as someone who has used the superb train services in both France and Germany, I wish them the best of luck with the additional TGV links), its very important to remember that they're doing all of this after building an extensive Motorway network.

We can't even consider doing any of this until such time as our country has such an extensive Motorway network.

When/if that time comes, I fully agree with the notion that we should have some sort of high speed TGV style network, along the lines of the inter urban Motorways-Dual Carriageways being built.

Like a high speed link connecting the 5 biggest cities in the Republic (i.e Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Galway and Waterford) and also to Belfast

spacetweek · 30-10-2007 9:01pm

This year, it reached 50:50 for the first time.

Zoney · 30-10-2007 10:02pm

E92 wrote: »

We can't even consider doing any of this until such time as our country has such an extensive Motorway network.

When/if that time comes, I fully agree with the notion that we should have some sort of high speed TGV style network, along the lines of the inter urban Motorways-Dual Carriageways being built.

Actually, there are a limited number of routes in this country for which motorway can be justified. Currently, even the Dublin-Cork route can't solely justify motorway in the middle section (south of M7/Portlaoise) just going by traffic volumes. Realistically, once the interurbans are finished (N1, N4/N6, N7, N8, N9) - and the N18 will probably be finished around the same time, M3 is underway and won't need extended - there are only a few more motorway/DC candidates: the missing N11 bit, N17 to Tuam, N20 (Limerick-Cork), N21 past Adare (actually needed due to traffic volume), possibly some/all of N25 Cork-Waterford. Possibly something will happen re: N33/N2 from M1/Ardee to the Border and the A5 up North.

Of course, we do need upgrades to 2+1 or decent standard carriageway across a lot of the rest of the network. But really, by 2010, the bulk of the effort on motorways should be done.

E92 · 30-10-2007 11:42pm

Zoney wrote: »

Actually, there are a limited number of routes in this country for which motorway can be justified. Currently, even the Dublin-Cork route can't solely justify motorway in the middle section (south of M7/Portlaoise) just going by traffic volumes. Realistically, once the interurbans are finished (N1, N4/N6, N7, N8, N9) - and the N18 will probably be finished around the same time, M3 is underway and won't need extended - there are only a few more motorway/DC candidates: the missing N11 bit, N17 to Tuam, N20 (Limerick-Cork), N21 past Adare (actually needed due to traffic volume), possibly some/all of N25 Cork-Waterford. Possibly something will happen re: N33/N2 from M1/Ardee to the Border and the A5 up North.

Of course, we do need upgrades to 2+1 or decent standard carriageway across a lot of the rest of the network. But really, by 2010, the bulk of the effort on motorways should be done.

No good in being short sighted IMO. We might as well have them while they are under capacity, rather than leaving them and discovering in a few years time that actually we should have done it all along. I accept that we mightn't need them now, but surley better to do it right now rather than having the usual 'Irish solution to an Irish problem' idea.

And 2+1 was introduced for rural country roads, so as to prevent collisions when turning righht to cross the other side of carriageway and so you could overtake one the sameside of the road as the difrection in which traffic is coming.

Of course we've decided that what we should do is build it for the main roads in the country, which is not what it was designed for.

And since M-way/HQDC is up to 10 times safer than single carriageway, thats a very good reason to do it too.

bk · 31-10-2007 1:26am

The future major roads projects will be the completion of the Eastern Bypass, possibly an outer ring road and the Northern Bypass in Cork.

There will also be many 2+1 and dual carriage ways to do around the country, however most of the Motorway network will be done and emphasis will definitely shift more to public transport, rail, trams, etc.

In fact T21 very much reflects that, nearly all the road projects are completed in the first half of T21, with no firm plans for road plans in the second half of T21, but almost all the rail/tram plans are for completion in the second half of T21.

Zoney · 31-10-2007 11:28am

E92 wrote: »

No good in being short sighted IMO. We might as well have them while they are under capacity, rather than leaving them and discovering in a few years time that actually we should have done it all along. I accept that we mightn't need them now, but surley better to do it right now rather than having the usual 'Irish solution to an Irish problem' idea.

Actually, I think even the likes of the N9 being replaced with motorway/DC *is* justified on the grounds of quickly and easily getting between main destinations in the country (besides, as far as the N10 junction the N9 needs DC just for capacity). My point in the previous post was merely to illustrate that even the main route in the Republic, between Cork and Dublin, doesn't have motorway levels of traffic in the middle of it. Thus, you can extrapolate that even being generous with where DC is rolled out (e.g. N18 - which I also think is merited for facilitation of commerce), we will soon enough, say in 5 years time, be mostly finished with motorways.

penexpers · 31-10-2007 11:48am

E92 wrote: »

While I've nothing against what Sarkozy did(I think its a great idea actually and as someone who has used the superb train services in both France and Germany, I wish them the best of luck with the additional TGV links), its very important to remember that they're doing all of this after building an extensive Motorway network.

The extensive Motorway network was built on the back of higher taxes and public-private partnership, two things that Irish people in general are allergic to.

Ham'nd'egger · 31-10-2007 3:29pm

penexpers wrote: »

The extensive Motorway network was built on the back of higher taxes and public-private partnership, two things that Irish people in general are allergic to.

France also has 64 million people to move places, against our 4 million. France is 674,000KM squared, we are 84,000KM. France has far far more industry than Ireland. France is also bordered by half of the EU; we have but one land border.

In short, France can justify and is able to make this spend given the long distances to move masses of people and produce; Ireland has not got this problem.

France to double TGV network, switch funding from roads

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