Are all irish people to blame for the abuse in the Catholic Church?

seraphimvc · 27-11-2009 3:49am

dustyrip wrote: »

Is that the place with the really hard toilets to find. The Grand Central on O'Connell street is impossible also!!

yup:D awesome toilet tho - you can walk straight into wimmin's toilet from the gents.

no,i didnt try that.

jackthekipper · 27-11-2009 3:56am

Why should we, as the great Bertie said "it's a grand wee country"

dustyrip · 27-11-2009 3:57am

seraphimvc wrote: »

yup:D awesome toilet tho - you can walk straight into wimmin's toilet from the gents.

no,i didnt try that.

The Church has the reputation as the hardest toilets to find in Dublin. I have more problems in the Grand Central though, they should have an arrow pointing like in IKEA.

Four-Too · 27-11-2009 4:01am

CliffHuxtabel wrote: »

being over 18 years old, how exactly could I have changed things?

By taking personal responsibility for what was happening, by not being in denial of truth if the evil that was happening, by thinking outside the small box that was Irish Catholic society at that time, by uniting with others, by refusing to have a fear of death or ridicule, fear can be used to control any society, once the population is no longer afraid the powers that be lose their control, in this case it was the church.

Son Of A Vidic · 27-11-2009 4:07am

Me to blame - no way, however there may be a point here. Older generations may have been guilty of 'bowing the knee' and 'dipping the hat' to men who deserved nothing more than a prison cell.

jackthekipper · 27-11-2009 4:39am

medicman2009 wrote: »

Me to blame - no way, however there may be a point here. Older generations may have been guilty of 'bowing the knee' and 'dipping the hat' to men who deserved nothing more than a prison cell.

Well said, don't the guards have alot to answer for?

fergalr · 27-11-2009 4:47am

No. Of course not.

We Irish people aren't to blame for anything. Ever. Didn't you know that?
Its always someone elses fault.

It's just like those politicians we all hate that are messing up the economy.
How the hell did they get into power, anyway? Its not like anyone voted for them!

No - we the people of Ireland are never to blame for anything.

No matter how bad, or widespread, or systemic the failure is, it is always the sole and total fault of a small group of individuals, who we all used to like, but now hate.

Saying otherwise is like saying that the emperor has no clothes on - people are going to get angry!

- - - - -

Look - like many of you, I wasn't around in the time the abuse occurred. So, sure, its not reasonable to say I'm directly responsible.
And maybe its not even that helpful to spend all our energy trying to point the finger...

BUT:

In Ireland, whenever a scandal finally breaks, and shows us that there has been a SYSTEMIC FAILURE - everyone's first reaction is 'It wasn't me - its those guys fault!'
This has got to stop if we want things to improve.

No, we aren't all responsible for the abuse in the church. But very many of the people of Ireland bear some responsibility - much more of us than just the priests in question.

And that means we have to stand up and take responsibility for what happened, all of us, as a nation. That doesn't mean just the Taoiseach, or the Minisiter for Justice - those guys will be out of politics soon. Its all of us as citizens of Ireland.

You might be proud of your Irish heritage - the culture, maybe the music, the craic - well, good for you, but you can't be proud of that aspect of your Irishness and just gloss over our past failings as a nation.

Until we all stand up and pay attention each time we have a systemic failure, and until we all try - each of us, a little - to make sure it won't happen again, then we will continue to have such failures, and we will all continue to bear some share in the responsibility for them.

Its not good enough to just lay into the small group, and wash our hands of responsibility - we have to fix the system so that it doesn't happen again. We have to all engage with these problems, see what caused them, and try and make sure they don't reoccur.

This is true of our economic woes, our political system, our states relationship with the church and a range of other issues we'd rather all just blame on someone else.

- If you are angry with the way the country has been run, then inform yourself politically before you vote. Most of us haven't been doing this, and we all share the blame.

- Maybe you know the health service is messed up and people are dying unnecessarily. Its been falling apart this last while - we all sort of know it - but who is doing anything to fix it? Make it an election issue. Demand it be fixed. Stop caring more about the pothole outside our house, the street light, the change in car tax.

- If you are upset with the special treatment the church got from the state and the gardai in the past, then you should be thinking about whether you want the church in a privileged position in the Irish Constitution. That might seem a very abstract thing - but its the foundation of the rules of our state and it underpins a lot of the states behaviour. If we were a more secular state in the past, then the gardai might not have given the priests such special treatment.

Nobody gives a toss about this sort of thing though - we care a lot more about the price of a pint. Its for someone else to deal with - and as long as thats the case, then we are all a bit to blame the next thing something bad happens.

This is a democracy.
We get a vote.
We all bear some of the responsibility when things go wrong.

When we take ownership of the problems, and trying to fix them, then things might get better.

This rant is not directed at any of the posters in this thread... I'm not trying to lecture, just raise the issue... Its just something I feel sometimes when I see the response to these scandals.

There are so many people willing to be part of the lynch mob - but what we need is people that will nip the problems in the bud...

jackthekipper · 27-11-2009 5:02am

fergalr wrote: »

No. Of course not.

We Irish people aren't to blame for anything. Ever. Didn't you know that?
Its always someone elses fault.

It's just like those politicians we all hate that are messing up the economy.
How the hell did they get into power, anyway? Its not like anyone voted for them!

No - we the people of Ireland are never to blame for anything.

No matter how bad, or widespread, or systemic the failure is, it is always the sole and total fault of a small group of individuals, who we all used to like, but now hate.

Saying otherwise is like saying that the emperor has no clothes on - people are going to get angry!

- - - - -

Look - like many of you, I wasn't around in the time the abuse occurred. So, sure, its not reasonable to say I'm directly responsible.
And maybe its not even that helpful to spend all our energy trying to point the finger...

BUT:

In Ireland, whenever a scandal finally breaks, and shows us that there has been a SYSTEMIC FAILURE - everyone's first reaction is 'It wasn't me - its those guys fault!'
This has got to stop if we want things to improve.

No, we aren't all responsible for the abuse in the church. But very many of the people of Ireland bear some responsibility - much more of us than just the priests in question.

And that means we have to stand up and take responsibility for what happened, all of us, as a nation. That doesn't mean just the Taoiseach, or the Minisiter for Justice - those guys will be out of politics soon. Its all of us as citizens of Ireland.

You might be proud of your Irish heritage - the culture, maybe the music, the craic - well, good for you, but you can't be proud of that aspect of your Irishness and just gloss over our past failings as a nation.

Until we all stand up and pay attention each time we have a systemic failure, and until we all try - each of us, a little - to make sure it won't happen again, then we will continue to have such failures, and we will all continue to bear some share in the responsibility for them.

Its not good enough to just lay into the small group, and wash our hands of responsibility - we have to fix the system so that it doesn't happen again. We have to all engage with these problems, see what caused them, and try and make sure they don't reoccur.

This is true of our economic woes, our political system, our states relationship with the church and a range of other issues we'd rather all just blame on someone else.

- If you are angry with the way the country has been run, then inform yourself politically before you vote. Most of us haven't been doing this, and we all share the blame.

- Maybe you know the health service is messed up and people are dying unnecessarily. Its been falling apart this last while - we all sort of know it - but who is doing anything to fix it? Make it an election issue. Demand it be fixed. Stop caring more about the pothole outside our house, the street light, the change in car tax.

- If you are upset with the special treatment the church got from the state and the gardai in the past, then you should be thinking about whether you want the church in a privileged position in the Irish Constitution. That might seem a very abstract thing - but its the foundation of the rules of our state and it underpins a lot of the states behaviour. If we were a more secular state in the past, then the gardai might not have given the priests such special treatment.

Nobody gives a toss about this sort of thing though - we care a lot more about the price of a pint. Its for someone else to deal with - and as long as thats the case, then we are all a bit to blame the next thing something bad happens.

This is a democracy.
We get a vote.
We all bear some of the responsibility when things go wrong.

When we take ownership of the problems, and trying to fix them, then things might get better.

This rant is not directed at any of the posters in this thread... I'm not trying to lecture, just raise the issue... Its just something I feel sometimes when I see the response to these scandals.

There are so many people willing to be part of the lynch mob - but what we need is people that will nip the problems in the bud...

+1

Morzadec · 27-11-2009 5:33am

Taking the question very literally then I would have to agree with the no's. I'm 23 and I don't feel in any way responsible. But that's not to say that the poster doesn't raise a valid point and the thread doesn't merit discussion as some have suggested.

There was an awful lot of complicity for this to be allowed to happen and state services were involved in this. I think that the State should apologise to the victims of this abuse. Brown and the Australian PM are apologising to the young children sent to Australia from Britain who were subsequently abused or mistreated. It's not going to do anything practical, but I feel it is an apology that is owed to them, and it would be an important symbolic gesture.

It's shocking stuff to read. As a young guy from the Dublin suburbs with absolutely no connection with the Catholic Church or any religion for all my life, and very little knowledge of rural life at this time it's so hard to imagine the type of community described by Baalthor a few pages back. It's completely alien to me. None of my older relatives are Irish, so this is something that I really have no personal history or connection with. It's a part of our history have little knowledge of and no experience of.

In this respect I feel it's hard to judge others unless you were in their shoes. From what other posters have described it might've been very difficult for many to do anything at all, especially women (they were very patriarcal societies I assume?). What about that poster's father whose life was destroyed when he reported something and wouldn't allow it to be swept under the carpet, and was sent to a psycriatric hospital for questioning the system? I was shocked to hear that, it's unbelievably tragic but it's also unbelievable how much power these people had. Many people's livlihoods could have been put at risk by questioning them (if not their life). If you saw what had happened to that man would you have the courage to say something? It's easy to say Yes in front of your keyboard in a largely secular and completely liberal country.

The world in which these people functioned is completely different to the world we function in today. It was a completely fcuked up place to live. I wouldn't want to pass comment on people's responsibility when I know nothing of what that world is like.

Also completely agree with the poster above about removing the Church's special place in the Constitution. They are a stain on our country and our reputation, and removing them would send a clear message that Ireland does not of approve of this and does not tolerate it.

If there was a referendum on it I know which way I'd be voting. Do people think they would be removed from the constitution if people were put to the polls?

Nodin · 27-11-2009 9:32am

The "special position" was removed in 1972/73......

Squiggle · 27-11-2009 9:58am

No and most clergy are not to blame either.

Handsome Bob · 27-11-2009 10:13am

Not all Irish people are responsible, that goes without saying. However, it is time for the people of this country to step up and take responsibility of how we forward within this society. You want change? You want the catholic church's grip around such issues as education broken? Well then get up and take action, show this government that the majority of you demand change.

prinz · 27-11-2009 10:23am

jackthekipper wrote: »

Well said, don't the guards have alot to answer for?

If you read the report I think you'd find they have less to answer for than most other people involved; psychiatists, a certain 'institute', even parents and family members who refused to believe what their children were telling them at the time, and others who refused to follow up on the matter at the time. Yes some members of the gardaí acted appallingly, however in the majority of cases they discharged their obligations satisfactorily as confirmed by the Commission. Also if you read the biography of JC McQuaid you would read that back in the day two young gardaí began an investigation into abuse, and somewhat mysteriously were posted to opposite ends of the country and had their files confiscated. They weren't all bad.

Vasco · 27-11-2009 1:03pm

As terribly distressing as it is to read another report of the systemic abuse of children at the hands of the men of cloth, it reminds me of an horrific fact.

These men were all Irish. ..... Well the report was about the Dublin parish so of course these animals would be Irish, but.......

This country has been awfully betrayed by the clergy and if you look into the cases of child sexual abuse by the Catholic church abroad you will find that the Priests that carried out these heinous acts were practically all Irish.

In America, Canada, Australia and The U.K. all the most high profile pedophile Priests were/are all Irish nationals.

I find this fact extremely distressing.

It appears that one of Irelands biggest exports over the years has been pedophiles. In all the previous mentioned countries there has been uproar about the conduct of these animals and the church that protected them but nothing has been said about the fact that all these men were Irish!!!

Are these countries being polite and not wishing to offend Ireland?? To me, it is a huge elephant in the room.

I am ashamed.

27-11-2009 1:05pm

I'm not but I'm also not a Roman Catholic!

Wazdakka · 27-11-2009 1:07pm

Please can we stop with the church / religion / pedophile priests threads..
Been way too many of them recently...

There have got to be better forums to put them in than here.

[EDIT]
This post used to be in another thread..
I'm not just being a complete untolerant prick

Instant Karma · 27-11-2009 1:08pm

have you somehow missed the 3 or 4 other threads on this subject on this very page?

douglashyde · 27-11-2009 1:10pm

Ireland really has a lot of stressful things going on right now, flooding, economy, unemployment, overpaid yet still striking public sector, pedo priests, crime rate up.

I do sometimes wonder......... are we better of somewhere else.

genericguy · 27-11-2009 1:11pm

Wazdakka wrote: »

Please can we stop with the church / religion / pedophile priests threads..
Been way too many of them recently...

There have got to be better forums to put them in than here.

at the rate these revelations are occurring, i'd say we need a pedo forum.

Long Onion · 27-11-2009 1:11pm

Vasco wrote: »

As terribly distressing as it is to read another report of the systemic abuse of children at the hands of the men of cloth, it reminds me of an horrific fact.

These men were all Irish. ..... Well the report was about the Dublin parish so of course these animals would be Irish, but.......

This country has been awfully betrayed by the clergy and if you look into the cases of child sexual abuse by the Catholic church abroad you will find that the Priests that carried out these heinous acts were practically all Irish.

In America, Canada, Australia and The U.K. all the most high profile pedophile Priests were/are all Irish nationals.

I find this fact extremely distressing.

It appears that one of Irelands biggest exports over the years has been pedophiles. In all the previous mentioned countries there has been uproar about the conduct of these animals and the church that protected them but nothing has been said about the fact that all these men were Irish!!!

Are these countries being polite and not wishing to offend Ireland?? To me, it is a huge elephant in the room.

I am ashamed.

Frizl
/thread

Wazdakka · 27-11-2009 1:13pm

genericguy wrote: »

at the rate these revelations are occurring, i'd say we need a pedo forum.

There is one..

Link

Vasco · 27-11-2009 1:15pm

I am trying to discuss the link between these men all being Irish.

And considering what has being revealed recently I believe that this is a very topical subject.

Bobeagleburger · 27-11-2009 1:15pm

These threads are brain-washing

genericguy · 27-11-2009 1:16pm

Wazdakka wrote: »

There is one..

Link

Lord Trollington · 27-11-2009 1:19pm

Wazdakka wrote: »

Please can we stop with the church / religion / pedophile priests threads..
Been way too many of them recently...

There have got to be better forums to put them in than here.

There is nothing as bad as want to be moderators.
If the thread annoys you dont post in it.

The OP is pointing out the fact that most paedo abuse by a preist abroad has been carried out by an Irish priest.

Wazdakka · 27-11-2009 1:22pm

whycliff wrote: »

There is nothing as bad as want to be moderators.
If the thread annoys you dont post in it.

The OP is pointing out the fact that most paedo abuse by a preist abroad has been carried out by an Irish priest.

I'm not trying to be a moderator..
To be brutally honest I would rather fúck a belt sander than be a mod of AH.

What I am trying to do is get people to realise that just because they have a new point on a topic already being discussed in several different places it does not require making a new thread.

It's cluttering up the place with religious serious crap.
And AH is not necessary the best place for it..

amacachi · 27-11-2009 1:22pm

Not all but a lot of people are to blame collectively. It was widely known for years and years what went on in Churches, schools and in a lot worse places than that. All anyone did was turn a blind eye. Would I have done any differently? I doubt it.

Lord Trollington · 27-11-2009 1:46pm

Wazdakka wrote: »

I'm not trying to be a moderator..
To be brutally honest I would rather fúck a belt sander than be a mod of AH.

What I am trying to do is get people to realise that just because they have a new point on a topic already being discussed in several different places it does not require making a new thread.

It's cluttering up the place with religious serious crap.
And AH is not necessary the best place for it..

Should the moderators not decide that though??

I'm not really having a go at you but so many people come on particularly in AH and like to be a back seat mod, which grates at me big time.. Any how rant over.

Back to the Paedos.........

ArthurDent · 27-11-2009 1:47pm

MementoMori wrote: »

Sickeningly in a legal sense this still holds true today, although thankfully it seldom (if ever) occurs.

if only - in every primary school the Chairperson sits on the interview board. In many cases this is still the PP and every appointment must be approved by the patron (in denominational schools this is the Bishop)

bleg · 27-11-2009 1:47pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Not all Irish people are responsible, that goes without saying. However, it is time for the people of this country to step up and take responsibility of how we forward within this society. You want change? You want the catholic church's grip around such issues as education broken? Well then get up and take action, show this government that the majority of you demand change.

Show the government?

Show the church. Stop going to mass. Stop donating money. Do this to start. If you feel like going further then defect.

Are all irish people to blame for the abuse in the Catholic Church?

Comments