What powers do the Luas ticket inspectors actually have?

monument · 08-02-2012 2:20pm

Agreed that it is not forbidden in the bylaws -- was just pointing out that they stop people and act as if it is.

KD345 · 08-02-2012 2:35pm

monument wrote: »

Agreed that it is not forbidden in the bylaws -- was just pointing out that they stop people and act as if it is.

Considering the amount of bylaws being broken every day regarding fares/alcohol/smoking/drugs/litter, you would hope that photography is far down on their list of priorities.

An Udaras · 08-02-2012 8:41pm

5 pages in and we still haven't discovered if the LUAS staff have anymore power then to simply demand your name & address? And if you don't provide they have no power then to simple follow you and call guards...

Am I missing something here?

Losty Dublin · 09-02-2012 12:30pm

An Udaras wrote: »

5 pages in and we still haven't discovered if the LUAS staff have anymore power then to simply demand your name & address? And if you don't provide they have no power then to simple follow you and call guards...

Am I missing something here?

Have you actually read any of the replies on the thread yet? This has been covered already and on numerous similar threads on here over time.

2005 Railway Safety Act is the most recent act that covers ticket fines and the legal obligations of railway staff and passengers.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0129.html

Luas Bylaws for your information, once again. A link to same can be found on www.luas.ie

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/si/0100.html

An Udaras · 09-02-2012 1:48pm

An Udaras wrote: »

Interesting point.. Are LUAS/Veolia staff appointed solely as Authorised Persons under the Byelaws? Or are they empowered as Authorised Officers per Railway Safety Act 2005. Other wise I can't see any powers to detain?

Please read post 41 above Losty before saying I haven't read the thread fully..

Just because a member of Veolia is considered a Authorised Person under the LUAS Byelaws does not mean they arevappointed or empowered as Authorised Officers under railway safety act of 2005.

If you can show evidence or knowledge that a LUAS Authorised person is also an Authorised officer with statute powers to detain an individual then you will have answered my question other then that your post just sounds arrogant Losty.

Losty Dublin · 09-02-2012 4:13pm

An Udaras wrote: »

Please read post 41 above Losty before saying I haven't read the thread fully..

Just because a member of Veolia is considered a Authorised Person under the LUAS Byelaws does not mean they arevappointed or empowered as Authorised Officers under railway safety act of 2005.

If you can show evidence or knowledge that a LUAS Authorised person is also an Authorised officer with statute powers to detain an individual then you will have answered my question other then that your post just sounds arrogant Losty.

But it is there; read the 2005 act and the 2004 SI and you have have your answer. From the Bylaws...

2. In these Bye-laws -
“authorised person” means any officer, employee or agent of an operator acting in the execution of his or her duty upon or in connection with a light railway or any member of the Garda Síochána whose attendance is requested on a light railway by an authorised person;

In the 2005 act, sections 129 and 133 describe just who can be considered authorised officers, as they refer to them. Bear in mind that they are different acts and fines can be issued under one or other act so some terms will be slightly different.

foggy_lad · 09-02-2012 6:27pm

So does an authorised person as per the luas bye-laws have the same powers to detain a person as a guard or an authorised officer as per the light railways order? As far as I can see the luas authorised person does not have any right to touch or detain anyone even on a tram or platform while the light railways order authorised officer has the power to detain any person who has committed an offense. But I could be wrong!

To clarify further, STT and other Veolia staff can detain you if you damage property or attack other passengers etc by effecting a citizens arrest which could leave them "personally liable" but only a person authorised under the provisions of the light railways order has powers to detain you for fare evasion but they are in fact detaining you for trespassing on the light railway as you have no right to be on the platforms or trams without a ticket.

An Udaras · 09-02-2012 10:04pm

I am of the same opinion as foggy.

There is specific requirements set down for the appointment of Authourised Officers under the Act of 2005. This differs greatly from a definition of a Authorised person under LUAS Byelaws.

It is my understanding that an officer of a company does not mean Authorised Officer under an act.

It would be great if LUAS had these empowered,trained and supported Autorised Officers with specific statute powers of arrest & detention for a heap of Railway Offences including byelaw enforcement and I am sure regular LUAS users would benefit from their existence instead uniformed security guards.

Regular arrests & proactive enforcement of Byelaws could be a godsend, but with the exception of Garda patrols it does not seem to happen on the LUAS which would lead me to believe they that LUAS staff are not Authorised officers by virtue of the act of 2005 only empowered to enact/enforce parts of Byelaws mainly relating to tickets.

foggy_lad · 09-02-2012 10:15pm

There is also the distinction of those authorised under Luas Bye-Laws being called "authorised persons" and those authorised under the light railways order being called "authorised officers"

I would imagine that the reason Luas and other transport companies don't use more trained and authorised "officers" is to avoid personal injury and wrongful arrest claims which would be brought against the company whereas now if detained wrongfully or injured by an authorised person you bring your personal injury case against the individual who could also face charges for kidnap and assault.

Losty Dublin · 10-02-2012 1:57am

An Udaras wrote: »

I am of the same opinion as foggy.

There is specific requirements set down for the appointment of Authourised Officers under the Act of 2005. This differs greatly from a definition of a Authorised person under LUAS Byelaws.

It is my understanding that an officer of a company does not mean Authorised Officer under an act.

It would be great if LUAS had these empowered,trained and supported Autorised Officers with specific statute powers of arrest & detention for a heap of Railway Offences including byelaw enforcement and I am sure regular LUAS users would benefit from their existence instead uniformed security guards.

Regular arrests & proactive enforcement of Byelaws could be a godsend, but with the exception of Garda patrols it does not seem to happen on the LUAS which would lead me to believe they that LUAS staff are not Authorised officers by virtue of the act of 2005 only empowered to enact/enforce parts of Byelaws mainly relating to tickets.

Well if you are that worried about this all perhaps you should consult a solicitor for their opinion. Luas and Irish Rail get court convictions based on the relevant laws and bylaws and the powers legally bestowed on them so judges and solicitors seem to be happy with them as they are

markpb · 10-02-2012 2:19am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Luas and Irish Rail get court convictions based on the relevant laws and bylaws and the powers legally bestowed on them so judges and solicitors seem to be happy with them as they are

Depsite the smug answer, it's not really answering the question that's being asked.

mydiscworld wrote: »

Q1. Does he have the power either way to issue you a fine on the spot?

Q2. If you are outside of the tram when inspected, can you say you had a ticket and left it on the tram?

Q3. And how does he know you will give him a correct name & address anyway?

Q4. If you do not cooperate, such as giving no details or trying to just walk off, can they do a sort of citizen's arrest, similar to what a security guard would do to a shoplifter, and wait for the Gardaí to arrive?

The first one is unequivocally yes, the second one was found (and admitted by RPA) to be false because the SIs don't yet give them that authority, the third is a fair question and has nothing to do with court cases or judges and the fourth hasn't yet been answered, not even by you.

AlekSmart · 10-02-2012 7:42am

markpb wrote: »

Depsite the smug answer, it's not really answering the question that's being asked.

At this point in proceedings I would suggest that the question is unanswerable on these forums.

It is obvious,to me at least,that it now needs to be robustly decided in a Court of Law.

Whether this actually occurs or not is another matter ?

An Udaras · 10-02-2012 11:41am

An Udaras wrote: »

5 pages in and we still haven't discovered if the LUAS staff have anymore power then to simply demand your name & address? And if you don't provide they have no power then to simple follow you and call guards...

Am I missing something here?

So Losty my post still stands? Nobody really knows..

KD345 · 10-02-2012 12:18pm

And we're still no clearer on how public streets are property of RPA.

SerialComplaint · 10-02-2012 1:15pm

KD345 wrote: »

And we're still no clearer on how public streets are property of RPA.

I was told by an RPA head that they CPO'd the station area, including the public pavements at Jervis and Abbey - so it is actually their property now.

An Udaras · 10-02-2012 1:24pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Well if you are that worried about this all perhaps you should consult a solicitor for their opinion. Luas and Irish Rail get court convictions based on the relevant laws and bylaws and the powers legally bestowed on them so judges and solicitors seem to be happy with them as they are

I have no need to contact a solicitor I was curious to debate the differences on this forum with regular user/interested parties which by the past few pages people are clearly unsure about.

My contributions have been relating to if a LUAS employee asks for your name and address and person fails and/or refuses and simply walks off what can they do bar following the offender and calling the guards (unlikely for €2 ticket fare) which may go against the company health & safety policy if they end up being separated from colleagues or are assaulted away from the LUAS

KD345 · 10-02-2012 2:35pm

SerialComplaint wrote: »

I was told by an RPA head that they CPO'd the station area, including the public pavements at Jervis and Abbey - so it is actually their property now.

What is a "station area"?

There are no signs or markings whatsoever on Abbey Street to inform passengers that they have left the general footpath and entered a "station area". The flow of the pavement on Abbey Street goes past some ticket machines (complete with resident junkie beggars) and continues beyond.

There are also no signs at Spencer Dock, Mayor Square, Georges Dock, Chancery Street (Four Courts), Hammond Lane (Smithfield) and Benburb Street (Museum) that it is private property.

cson · 10-02-2012 7:17pm

Standard Fares seem to be issued based upon whether you look like you can pay the fine or not. In my experience issuance of Standard Fares are far more prevalent on the Green Line. I've really lost count of the number of times they just don't bother/just kick off individuals of a certain disposition on the Red Line.

Interestingly this did occur to me yesterday while I was taking a Tallaght-City Centre trip. I'd didn't have a phone at the time as it had been nicked and I'd left my wallet at home and just had a small sum of cash. Basically nothing to prove who I was other than my word. Now I did pay the €2.40 into town but I genuinely think I probably could have decided not to and got away with it if I wanted because;

[1] I could just give any name and address - obviously had nothing on me to prove it.

[2] I infrequently travel the Luas either direction. I wouldn't be 'known' in the same way people who dodge it the whole time would be

[3] I've a little bit of French; could have just started reaming it off and boom we have a language barrier difficulty.

For [1] and [3] I just can't see any Inspector going to the effort required to issue the notice. I mean it would effectively involve getting the STT guys to either **** me off the train or detain me til the Gardai got there [if I refused] or to accompany me to my house to get my ID. I mean I could lead him a merry dance of the City and do a runner at some stage.

From what I can see; if you don't do it often and travel without a phone or ID [or can conceal these - I assume they have no power to search you and would have to wait for Gardai and even then they have certain rules pertaining to when they can search you] then if you play it right you'll get away with it. Not that I condone it though.

Btw; I'm in two minds as to the STT guys. Its good to see a security presence on public transport but from what I've seen they're gonna get into trouble one of the days by the way they carry on. And by trouble I mean massive civil litigation suit.

An Udaras · 10-02-2012 7:27pm

What way do STT guys act CSON?

Why do the ticket inspectors need your phone for?

cson · 10-02-2012 8:08pm

An Udaras wrote: »

What way do STT guys act CSON?

They act with more authority than their station confers. Point in case being where I've seen them physically remove a kid for having his feet on the seat in front of him; kid ignores STT guy, he just literally picks him up and throws him off the tram.

Do that to the wrong kid and you've a massive assault civil suit in the making. Be that as it may the STT guy has the power to remove someone from the tram, exercising it in this way is unlikely to be viewed favourably by the judiciary.

An Udaras wrote: »

Why do the ticket inspectors need your phone for?

See earlier in the thread. Can apparently be used as a means of identifying you.

MadsL · 13-02-2012 7:00am

cson wrote: »

They act with more authority than their station confers. Point in case being where I've seen them physically remove a kid for having his feet on the seat in front of him; kid ignores STT guy, he just literally picks him up and throws him off the tram.

Do that to the wrong kid and you've a massive assault civil suit in the making. Be that as it may the STT guy has the power to remove someone from the tram, exercising it in this way is unlikely to be viewed favourably by the judiciary.

Why not form a transit police force?

In 1993, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani took office and quickly enlisted the transit police (which merged with the NYPD in 1996) to use innovative means to get the vandals and the punks out of the subway. The basic idea, based on what is known as the "Broken Windows" theory, was to crack down hard on petty crimes -- defacement of property and turnstile jumping, for instance -- to create an appearance of order that would gradually deter more serious would-be criminals. The approach was remarkably successful, and in 1999 Mayor Giuliani reported some impressive statistics: "Crime in our subway system has declined dramatically in the first four months of this year, continuing a multi-year decline that is even steeper than the City's overall crime decline. Robberies declined 17 percent from last year to this year… grand larcenies by 12 percent… assaults by 18 percent. Reported robbery in the subways has now declined by 68 percent over the last six years."

bk · 13-02-2012 10:05am

Yup, in New York, not having a ticket is considered a serious crime. People who are caught are often handcuffed and made stand in front of the ticket gates as people pas by until the police van arrives to take them for processing.

That is what we need here. Too many people here in Ireland don't seem to think it is a real crime, while in reality it is just as bad as stealing some jewellery from a store.

If you did this, entitled people who can actually afford the ticket, but just chance their arm, would completely stop doing it, because they would fear being arrested and embarrassed standing there as people pass.

While scumbags wouldn't fear being arrested or embarrassed, they don't want their time wasted either. They want to get to their next drug deal, etc. as quickly as possible too. Have them stand at the station for an hour until the police van arrives, then have the van slowly go from station to station picking more people up, so you could waste a scumbags whole day.

Policing is very much about psychology, unfortunately in Ireland the Irish police are very bad at that.

foggy_lad · 13-02-2012 11:22am

MadsL wrote: »

Why not form a transit police force?

The country is broke, we can't afford the police force we already have and due to ineffective legislation the Gardai are not able to do much anyway so you think throwing money at it like sugar will cure the rot? That was the old Celtic tiger way and it never worked!

AlekSmart · 13-02-2012 1:22pm

bk wrote: »

Yup, in New York, not having a ticket is considered a serious crime. People who are caught are often handcuffed and made stand in front of the ticket gates as people pas by until the police van arrives to take them for processing.

That is what we need here. Too many people here in Ireland don't seem to think it is a real crime, while in reality it is just as bad as stealing some jewellery from a store.

If you did this, entitled people who can actually afford the ticket, but just chance their arm, would completely stop doing it, because they would fear being arrested and embarrassed standing there as people pass.

While scumbags wouldn't fear being arrested or embarrassed, they don't want their time wasted either. They want to get to their next drug deal, etc. as quickly as possible too. Have them stand at the station for an hour until the police van arrives, then have the van slowly go from station to station picking more people up, so you could waste a scumbags whole day.

Policing is very much about psychology, unfortunately in Ireland the Irish police are very bad at that.

Well spotted bk.

Anybody who watches the daily tableau on Luas or any of Dublins Public Transport services will fairly rapidly note that the hard-core regular transgressor is ALWAYS in a hurry.

There are a whole bunch of reasons for this,but most of them centre around illegality of some sort.

Quite a bit of a drug/substance abusers time is spent on the phone arranging a pick-up or an onward deal-drop,often quite openly via mobile phone,other reasons can be connected with accquiring/disposing stolen property or other crime related aspects of the day to day life of the great-unwashed.

It has been my experience that there are Two elements which most of the usual-suspects find VERY undesireable (Ergo:Very Desireable for the rest of us).

These are:

Being Photographed,particularly a full-face with hoodie/baseball cap off.

Being delayed.

It's more than obvious that the "punishments" which we in the normal world think to be fitting,simply hold no deterrent factor for the committed non-complier.

Therefore,a degree of out-of-box thinking could achieve some worthwhile results IMO.

I was quite impressed by the sentence handed down to one young rebellious gentleman at Athlone District Court in October 2011 by Judge Seamus Hughes.

http://www.herald.ie/news/teenager-who-spat-on-garda-car-now-has-to-wash-it-for-six-months-2914876.html

Now,if I were a Minister for Justice who presided over an essentially dysfunctional Prison and Parole system which regularly sees individuals with 100+ convictions subsequently appearing on ever more serious charges,I'd be very keen to get this type of sentencing added to or replacing some of the totally inneffective elements we currently apply.

MadsL · 13-02-2012 7:25pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

The country is broke, we can't afford the police force we already have and due to ineffective legislation the Gardai are not able to do much anyway so you think throwing money at it like sugar will cure the rot? That was the old Celtic tiger way and it never worked!

We throw away money by making crime pay. Did it occur that we could subside this by making fines hefty and payable on the stop. Here is the process in the Czech Republic who run an honour system but heavily penalise offenders. They operate on all forms of public transport. Inspectors operate in teams of 2 - 8 people and are plainclothed and show a small badge to identify themselves or pull on an armband once in position at an exit.

Public transport tickets must be purchased before travelling. Tickets must be validated at the start of the journey. You will be fined on the spot if you are travelling with an invalid ticket. The fine, usually 800 crowns (around £26.00), is paid directly to the ticket inspector and a receipt should be issued. Ticket inspectors will not normally excuse passengers who claim not to have known that tickets must be validated before travel. If you cannot pay the fine on the spot, ticket inspectors will often call the Police and you may be arrested; the fine increases to 1000 Crowns (around £33.00) if you do not pay immediately.

Isn't this preferable to the 'Celtic Tiger' system of 'Don't be doing that, off you go?'

foggy_lad · 13-02-2012 7:33pm

MadsL wrote: »

We throw away money by making crime pay. Did it occur that we could subside this by making fines hefty and payable on the stop. Here is the process in the Czech Republic who run an honour system but heavily penalise offenders. They operate on all forms of public transport. Inspectors operate in teams of 2 - 8 people and are plainclothed and show a small badge to identify themselves or pull on an armband once in position at an exit.

Isn't this preferable to the 'Celtic Tiger' system of 'Don't be doing that, off you go?'

Very honourable of the Czech republic but here in Ireland there would be too much temptation for the inspectors to pocket the cash rather than hand it in. There would be fake receipt books all over the place possibly more than even the fake social welfare passes!

ProudDUB · 13-02-2012 10:09pm

bk wrote: »

Yup, in New York, not having a ticket is considered a serious crime. People who are caught are often handcuffed and made stand in front of the ticket gates as people pas by until the police van arrives to take them for processing.

That is what we need here. Too many people here in Ireland don't seem to think it is a real crime, while in reality it is just as bad as stealing some jewellery from a store.

If you did this, entitled people who can actually afford the ticket, but just chance their arm, would completely stop doing it, because they would fear being arrested and embarrassed standing there as people pass.

While scumbags wouldn't fear being arrested or embarrassed, they don't want their time wasted either. They want to get to their next drug deal, etc. as quickly as possible too. Have them stand at the station for an hour until the police van arrives, then have the van slowly go from station to station picking more people up, so you could waste a scumbags whole day.

Policing is very much about psychology, unfortunately in Ireland the Irish police are very bad at that.

Great post.

For the past few weeks I have been taking the DART that gets into Howth Junction/Donaghmeade at around 6.10pm. This is the height of rush hour. You would think that an inspector would be there to check that passengers have tickets wouldn't you? Nope. Have not seen one yet in the 3 weeks that I have been riding this route. The amount of scumbags (with their hoodies pulled up over their faces to avoid the CCTV cameras naturally) who just jump over the barrier, easy as you please, has to be seen to be believed. The barriers are waist high and very easy to leap over. Utterly crazy set up imo.

The funny thing is that the station property and tracks are surrounded by 10 ft high metal fences with spikes on top of the railings. It would be a very brave and stupid fare dodger that would try to scale them. Yet the official entrance to the station itself has ticket barriers that a 2 year old could climb over. WTF? These ticket barriers should be 10 ft high imo & with spikes that would make Ghengis Khan himself drool.

I also think that the ticket turnstiles themselves should be constructed in such a way that people can not rush through behind someone else. Just one body at a time should be able to fit thru the turnstile. The brains behind the Aviva and Croke Park have such systems in place & they are able to get 40,000-80,000 punters into their stadia without much drama. There is no way that an unticketed person could squeeze in behind me at Croker or the Aviva. It happens all the time to me at DART stations. Why on earth can the DART powers that be not come up with a similar system?

If it takes a wee bit longer to enter and exit a train station as a result, I am totally, totally ok with that if it means that everyone who rides the Dart has to buy a ticket. The DART is a very, very expensive transport system to run. If EVERYONE who rode it bought an actual ticket to do so then perhaps those of us who play by the rules wouldn't then be saddled with those shaggin' fare increases every shaggin' year !

MadsL · 13-02-2012 10:40pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Very honourable of the Czech republic but here in Ireland there would be too much temptation for the inspectors to pocket the cash rather than hand it in. There would be fake receipt books all over the place possibly more than even the fake social welfare passes!

Nice to see how much faith you put in people. There are lots of solutions to corruption in the fines system, I can think of ten off the top of my head.

1. Behind the ear cameras
2. patrol in teams
3. Full search coming off-shift (no money allowed on your person during working hours)
4. Online receipts (click to confirm required or the fine doubles) - tracks multiple offenders
5. Working in teams with whole team sacked if pocketing occurs
6. Receipt books are Laser, Credit Card machines not paper or escorted to Payzone to lodge money.
7. Random bribary checks by other plainclothes checkers.
8. CCTV on Luas checked regularly
9. receipt posted to address given by 'finee'
10. Atari Jaguar

Your move.

foggy_lad · 13-02-2012 11:11pm

MadsL wrote: »

Nice to see how much faith you put in people. There are lots of solutions to corruption in the fines system, I can think of ten off the top of my head.

1. Behind the ear cameras
2. patrol in teams
3. Full search coming off-shift (no money allowed on your person during working hours)
4. Online receipts (click to confirm required or the fine doubles) - tracks multiple offenders
5. Working in teams with whole team sacked if pocketing occurs
6. Receipt books are Laser, Credit Card machines not paper or escorted to Payzone to lodge money.
7. Random bribary checks by other plainclothes checkers.
8. CCTV on Luas checked regularly
9. receipt posted to address given by 'finee'
10. Atari Jaguar

Your move.

How much is all this going to cost a country that is broke?

MadsL · 13-02-2012 11:55pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

How much is all this going to cost a country that is broke?

You are asking the wrong question, the questions "how much does fare evasion cost now?" Followed by "how much do we need to make the fine to pay for the cost of policing it?"

By your logic, we should stop enforcing the law full stop as the country is 'broke'.

What powers do the Luas ticket inspectors actually have?

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