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Zero tolerance policing.

245

Comments

  • #32
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    There is no "winning" an argument with some people. Fighting crime is not something you can "win". This isn't a Batman movie. You do what you can when you can with what you have.
    Or your car might be facing the wrong way so you don't have to bother. It's that kind of attitude that has Irish criminals living in such fear, isn't it.
    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    A speeding ticket? There's people being murdered out there.
    It's OK, we heard this lame excuse the first time! All law enforcement is "discretionary" if you couldn't be bothered.
    Now only murders get investigated? Better make sure you get killed then if you are assaulted!


  • #33
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Zambia wrote: »
    Do you believe a Garda has to go after every offence regardless of risk to public or distraction from the primary task they are assigned
    .
    I was told here they don't bother if the traffic is a bit heavy. Note to criminals: rush hour has just been declared crime AOK hour by the Gardai.


  • #34
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Fighting crime is not something you can "win".
    What a pity I wasn't talking about all crime eh?
    I was talking about the crime you are ignoring, i.e. you are aware of and not doing nothing. Ah well, maybe you'll say something relevant next time.


  • #35
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I was told here they don't bother if the traffic is a bit heavy. Note to criminals: rush hour has just been declared crime AOK hour by the Gardai.

    That's not what your were told.

    All Gardai are held to account for their actions. It's up to them who they stop and who they don't so deal with it.


  • #36
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,781 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Wow. Are there any possible circumstances where you will arrest somebody for dangerous driving? If they come over, knock on your windows and ask you to arrest them do you still tell them to move along?

    What the poster is telling you - I think - and apologies to the poster if im wrong - is that situations are not as black and white as normal members of the public like you and I would consider them.

    There is a reality - that sometimes - trying to chase the dangerous driver ACTUALLY raises the danger to a higher level then the original dangerous driver

    Sad - but this is the reality - and who gets the blame if things go wrong - yes that's right the normal member of An Garda Siochana trying his or her best to do a difficult job. :(

    Obviously if you just go by the media - then the Gardaí are in crisis and sure we might as well just shut the whole thing down.

    Meanwhile back in the real world - everyday there are Men and Women of An Garda Siochana doing their best to do a difficult job - with very poor resources behind them - understaffed, lack of vehicles and so many other issues WHICH GARDAI did not cause

    Sorry for ranting on


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  • #37
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Zambia wrote: »
    That's not what your were told.

    All Gardai are held to account for their actions. It's up to them who they stop and who they don't so deal with it.
    Deal with it? LOL. Gardai do what they like so deal with it. :rolleyes:
    That's kind of the problem, the law-abiding Irish public DO have to deal with it.
    And you said it mate, Gardai are held to account for their ACTIONS. Not their INACTIONS. Couldn't put it better myself.


  • #38
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Old diesel wrote: »
    What the poster is telling you - I think - and apologies to the poster if im wrong - is that situations are not as black and white as normal members of the public like you and I would consider them.

    There is a reality - that sometimes - trying to chase the dangerous driver ACTUALLY raises the danger to a higher level then the original dangerous driver

    Sad - but this is the reality - and who gets the blame if things go wrong - yes that's right the normal member of An Garda Siochana trying his or her best to do a difficult job. :(

    Obviously if you just go by the media - then the Gardaí are in crisis and sure we might as well just shut the whole thing down.

    Meanwhile back in the real world - everyday there are Men and Women of An Garda Siochana doing their best to do a difficult job - with very poor resources behind them - understaffed, lack of vehicles and so many other issues WHICH GARDAI did not cause

    Sorry for ranting on
    That's fair enough. I agree 100% they are not adequately resourced. This "discretion" is marvellous if you're the one being let off sure. Try asking outside the force though and you won't get the same response as you're getting here from an Emergency Services crowd.


  • #39
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Deal with it? LOL. Gardai do what they like so deal with it. :rolleyes:
    That's kind of the problem, the law-abiding Irish public DO have to deal with it.
    And you said it mate, Gardai are held to account for their ACTIONS. Not their INACTIONS. Couldn't put it better myself.

    How do you know they are not held to account for inaction?


  • #40
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Deal with it? LOL. Gardai do what they like so deal with it. :rolleyes:
    That's kind of the problem, the law-abiding Irish public DO have to deal with it.
    And you said it mate, Gardai are held to account for their ACTIONS. Not their INACTIONS. Couldn't put it better myself.

    Let me ask you a simple question. If a Garda is stopped on the side of the road giving someone a speeding ticket and spots a person going by on the phone what should they do? Abandon the original ticket or leave off the guy on the phone? Which of those two options make them not bothered?


  • #41
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Zambia wrote: »
    How do you know they are not held to account for inaction?
    So when they ignore a crime they are later investigated for the crime they refused to admit existed? How does that work now?


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  • #42
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Let me ask you a simple question. If a Garda is stopped on the side of the road giving someone a speeding ticket and spots a person going by on the phone what should they do? Abandon the original ticket or leave off the guy on the phone? Which of those two options make them not bothered?
    The scenario we were presented with was the Garda not bothering as he might have to turn the car around. Do keep up. He wasn't making another intervention.


  • #43
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So when they ignore a crime they are later investigated for the crime they refused to admit existed? How does that work now?

    I asked you how you knew? The fact you don't know does not mean they don't monitor inaction.


  • #44
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The scenario we were presented with was the Garda not bothering as he might have to turn the car around. Do keep up. He wasn't making another intervention.

    You've clearly never been in a patrol car driving at let's say 80km/h when from the other direction a car with a mucky licence plate approaches also at 80km/h. If this is in rather busy traffic and the driving Garda decides to do a u-turn there and then stick on the lights and siren and race up the road after the car with the mucky numberplate I'd wonder about his/her sound judgement.

    The cars are effectively getting away from eachother at 160km/h thus covering more than a mile in minute. Now calculate the time to do a safe U-turn and get going again in busy traffic, if you can do it in about 40 seconds you're doing grand. Now the mucky number plate is at least a mile up the road, a mile that has to be gained while both cars are still moving.

    This will require the type of driving that can only be justified to pursue/prevent or respond to serious incidents/crime with substantial risk to propery or persons involved.

    Would you for example deem it justifiable to drive at the limit of one's capacity to go to a €10 shoplifting incident where the thief has left, the goods are recovered and CCTV is available ? Didn't think so.....well minor traffic offences in my book fall into a similar category; not worth putting anyone at even more risk on the road as there already is.


  • #45
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Wow. Just wow. Prepare to make the jump to hyperbole captain.
    So you are really going to compare Garda in a bit of traffic who's car is "going against him" ignoring a guy driving on the phone to two cars doing 80 in opposite directions neither of which have any issues with the actual quality of driving, just the dirty number plate?
    LOL is the only sane reply to your nonsense totally unrelated scenario.


  • #46
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Zambia wrote: »
    I asked you how you knew? The fact you don't know does not mean they don't monitor inaction.
    The suspense is killing me. Are you going to tell us or not?
    Is this inaction over reported crimes they bothered to log or all reported crimes, before you astound us?


  • #47
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The suspense is killing me. Are you going to tell us or not?
    Is this inaction over reported crimes they bothered to log or all reported crimes, before you astound us?

    So you don't know. If you don't know why prattle on like you do.

    You know nothing about what crimes are acted on or not. You fart on claiming some great malaise in the force when you have no clue of accountability. Within it.

    I'm not a garda never have been but simple common sense would back up the posters trying to enlighten you.

    You have no clue what you are talking about and no amount of capitals and sighs of despair can hide it.


  • #48
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Harry Bosch. wrote: »
    I ask you this, would a zero tolerance policy work in Ireland,

    Discretion may be overused, but with zero tolerance you'd never get to your beat or wherever it is you're supposed to be going. Most members would have the notebook out for the yellow box junction at the station entrance. In general you would make very slow progress if you were applying the letter of the law.

    That said, I'd very much like to see a less tolerant approach to minor offences. The whole idea of not hounding people over minor offences in order to retain "respect of the public" has led to a culture of entitlement among some members of the public and has failed miserably as a policy. I'd be all for a complete clamp-down.
    There are a lot of people out there who don't realise that they have benefited from discretion who would get a wake-up call, and not before time.


  • #49
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Zambia wrote: »
    So you don't know. If you don't know why prattle on like you do.

    You know nothing about what crimes are acted on or not. You fart on claiming some great malaise in the force when you have no clue of accountability. Within it.

    I'm not a garda never have been but simple common sense would back up the posters trying to enlighten you.

    You have no clue what you are talking about and no amount of capitals and sighs of despair can hide it.
    Ah, so you know loads and loads about this but, what a coincidence, have no information whatsoever to provide to us on it. Almost as if you're just talking waffle there. Wait, no doubt about that really.
    Have you ever even accidentally used facts, data or evidence to back up your opinions? Because that's all you have. Opinions.

    PS: This is what "evidence" (look it up, it's in the dictionary) would look like.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-massaging-crime-statistics-for-years-new-cso-report-shows-26441540.html


  • #50
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Ah, so you know loads and loads about this but, what a coincidence, have no information whatsoever to provide to us on it. Almost as if you're just talking waffle there. Wait, no doubt about that really.
    Have you ever even accidentally used facts, data or evidence to back up your opinions? Because that's all you have. Opinions.

    PS: This is what "evidence" (look it up, it's in the dictionary) would look like.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-massaging-crime-statistics-for-years-new-cso-report-shows-26441540.html

    Luckily I am playing the role of defender here. So I don't need to have evidence to prove my case.

    You need to prove yours. The article you provided proves convictions are occurring. Now I contend that to achieve those figures individual garda are flat out working.

    There may be a few members with their feet up but no job is exempt from those individuals.

    So please continue with your assumptions


  • #51
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Zambia wrote: »
    Luckily I am playing the role of defender here. So I don't need to have evidence to prove my case.
    You don't have a case. Otherwise you would have to prove it. Pretty basic stuff. Glad you're not on my court team.
    Zambia wrote: »
    You need to prove yours. The article you provided proves convictions are occurring. Now I contend that to achieve those figures individual garda are flat out working.
    OMG he didn't. That's like those Telegraph readers who say the Birmingham Six or second Hillsborough enquiry are proof of how good the British justice system is. Justice delayed is justice denied ring a bell? Any evidence that Gardai are "flat out"? You know you have to prove this, right? (PS. you just said so yourself two lines ago!)
    Zambia wrote: »
    There may be a few members with their feet up but no job is exempt from those individuals.
    Prove it. Remember you were saying earlier something about making a claim and providing evidence? You have thus far provided zero evidence of Garda competence or application to duty.
    Here's another example of "evidence". (did you look that word up yet?)
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rural-gardai-taking-twice-as-many-sick-days-as-city-officers-26630039.html
    Good on ye Dublin Gardai. Some of those rural Gardai pull more sickies in one year than I've had in ten.


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  • #52
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    http://www.northernsound.ie/news/garda-whistleblower-alleges-hundreds-of-records-of-criminal-offences-were-changed-or-falsified/

    "up to 40 offences a month were ignored"

    Discretion, eh?


  • #53
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    http://www.northernsound.ie/news/garda-whistleblower-alleges-hundreds-of-records-of-criminal-offences-were-changed-or-falsified/

    "up to 40 offences a month were ignored"

    Discretion, eh?

    Allegation, eh?
    While it may turn out to have substance, or it may not, it's no more than an allegation at the moment. Quoting it as if it's an absolute truth to people used to proof beyond reasonable doubt is a bit silly if you want to be taken seriously. Of course it makes more sense if you're just sniping.


  • #54
    B_Rabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭B_Rabbit


    What about zero tolerance on certain aspects of crime, for example anti-social behaviour, theft, burglary, assault.


  • #55
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dermot Illogical wrote: »
    Allegation, eh?
    While it may turn out to have substance, or it may not, it's no more than an allegation at the moment. Quoting it as if it's an absolute truth to people used to proof beyond reasonable doubt is a bit silly if you want to be taken seriously. Of course it makes more sense if you're just sniping.
    Your response makes perfect sense if you are a blind defender of the Gardai too.
    It has to be asked where would I even go to look up the required statistics when the Gardai investigate themselves, are exempt from Freedom of Information legislation and whistleblowing is effectively witch hunted out of existence.
    If we were in AH instead of playing to the cheap applause crowd here in Emergency Services you wouldn't see so much support I can guarantee you that.


  • #56
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    If we were in AH instead of playing to the cheap applause crowd here in Emergency Services you wouldn't see so much support I can guarantee you that.

    There's a lower burden of proof in AH?


  • #57
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dermot Illogical wrote: »
    There's a lower burden of proof in AH?
    So you have no proof or even evidence that the Gardai are either competent or diligent? OK. Thanks for your non-input.
    There's a lower number of Gardai at AH than here. And if there's one thing the Gardai are legendary for in Ireland it's closing ranks.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056604204
    There's an example from outside the homer brigade. Why have we no stats on reported and investigates crime? Because the Gardai refuse to provide it.
    Nothing suspicious there, eh?


  • #58
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So you have no proof or even evidence that the Gardai are either competent or diligent? OK. Thanks for your non-input.
    There's a lower number of Gardai at AH than here. And if there's one thing the Gardai are legendary for in Ireland it's closing ranks.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056604204
    There's an example from outside the homer brigade. Why have we no stats on reported and investigates crime? Because the Gardai refuse to provide it.
    Nothing suspicious there, eh?

    Holy moving goalposts Batman!
    Answer one of your posts and I've to answer them all? You don't ask much.


  • #59
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dermot Illogical wrote: »
    Holy moving goalposts Batman!
    Answer one of your posts and I've to answer them all? You don't ask much.
    A bit like answer one 999 and you expect me to answer them all, eh? ;-)
    So no evidence presented by defence? Noted!


  • #60
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So no evidence presented by defence? Noted!

    Defence? I simply responded to your post #52. I'm not sure what it is exactly you think I'm supposed to be defending?


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  • #61
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    http://www.northernsound.ie/news/garda-whistleblower-alleges-hundreds-of-records-of-criminal-offences-were-changed-or-falsified/

    "up to 40 offences a month were ignored"

    Discretion, eh?

    That's about one per Garda stationed there. So you'd have an issue with a Garda letting 12 people off per year? You know, I don't think you understand what discretion is past penalty points. I'm assuming it's because you got some yourself. It goes far beyond traffic enforcement. It's not always necessary to punish the local drunk because you know he's down on his luck. It's not always necessary to prosecute the fella who left his key in the car and got it stolen. It's not always necessary to charge the two friends who got into a shoving match because they had a few too many. Or the publican who had trouble clearing the bar on time. Or the recently unemployed person who was late getting his NCT because he couldn't afford it. The world is not black and white. If prosecuting those people is the kind of policing you want then I suggest it's you that needs the attitude change.


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