More in hope than expectation!

Jimmy Iovine · 24-06-2010 12:55am #1

Judging by the severe lack of recent activity I can only hope that someone will be able to answer this question.

I've noticed recently that American journalists refer to a sports team as if they are a person eg. "USA scores late, moves on". Whereas their trans-Atlantic counterparts would say "USA score late, move on".

I was wondering if there is a reason behind either phrases and are both of them "correct".

I'll check back in 2 months for an answer

sceptre · 24-06-2010 1:24am

Country names are singular nouns. End. Ditto companies, organisations etc.

Hence, it should be "USA scores" "USA invades", "USA annoys Iraq (or Iraqis)".

There's no sane rationale behind using "USA score" in a proper sentence unless someone wants to make a case for an invisible noun in between "USA" and "score". But even then it'd be "USA (team) scores late" or "USA (player) scores late" (ignore the lack of "American" rather than "USA" as that's two different kettles of fish). "USA" isn't a collective noun so I rather hope there aren't all that many people on either side of the Atlantic treating it as such.

Of course, there could be some old-time Republicans who still regard "USA" as collective in that it technically stands for "United States of America" but most of those are happily dead and I'm assuming you meant it as a general "USA score(s)", "France score(s)" question rather than a specific one about the rebellious colonies. If you were being specific about the US, then that's why and it bothers these people at night that people correctly use "United Nations" as a singular noun rather than a collective one.

I've occasionally seen newspapers use country/organisation names as plurals - just as you said "<organisation> approve regulations" and giggled as I find it funny when headlines are grammatically assways.

Jimmy Iovine · 25-06-2010 1:18am

I only used the US as an example because I was just reading an article about them. I am referring to the more general "France scores" as you said. I'm still not sure why it differs so much though between countries.

I did a quick search there and I found two articles about the German football team in South Africa. The first is from USA Today and the second is from The Guardian. Taking "Germany" to be a singular noun this would mean that the headline used by The Guardian is completely wrong and I can't imagine they would repeat this mistake considering it is the heading of an article.

USA Today:
Germany shuts out Ghana; result places them 1-2 in Group D

The Guardian:
Germany fret over the fitness of Schweinsteiger

Sorry if this is repetitive but it's something that has bugged me for years now and would be handy to know for future reference.

sceptre · 25-06-2010 1:13pm

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Sorry if this is repetitive but it's something that has bugged me for years now and would be handy to know for future reference.

In my head, that's precisely what the Linguistics & Etymology board is for so that's no problem at all:)

The BBC has a confusing policy on it. BBC Online regards collective nouns as singular. BBC Radio regards them as plural. BBC TV News doesn't have a policy and uses whichever they think sounds better in context. (that's from page 30 of the BBC News styleguide). The Guardian has a stylesheet as well and I have it here somewhere but can't remember where I filed it.

It's definitely more local than a west-east divide then, though as you say, there might be more of a tendency for American publications/broadcasters to go one way and British ones to go the other way. Your observations aren't a science experiment, of course, but they're good enough for me.

I even noticed above that I initially typed "The BBC have" but then continued with "regards". Seems there's a little battle going on even in my head then. I would say though that sometimes one particular use or the other just sounds wrong and then whatever rule a person or an editor has could be relaxed for convenience. Really though, there should at least be consistency within the same article where possible.

There isn't a definitive answer though, at least at the moment, and that's the trouble. I suspect that in the end the singular rule will win so I've decided to be on the winning side early.

Krusader · 17-07-2010 12:09am

shouldn't the USA Today be "Germany shut out Ghana" as the game is over and the result final, so you would need the past tense

for the Guardian maybe we regard countries as being in the 3rd person pluaral

they fret -> germany fret

deman · 18-07-2010 11:43am

sceptre wrote: »

I find it funny when headlines are grammatically assways.

Headlines are more often grammatically assways than they are grammatically correct. Headlines are written so that people take notice and often have inaccurate grammar because of this.

sceptre · 18-07-2010 9:34pm

deman wrote: »

Headlines are more often grammatically assways than they are grammatically correct. Headlines are written so that people take notice and often have inaccurate grammar because of this.

As someone who writes my own headlines for my own stuff, I'm quite aware of this:) Journo speak is an obnoxious affair at times but unfortunately part of the way things are written.

But it helps if the singular / plural thing is consistent between article and headline at the very least...

Donkey Oaty · 27-07-2010 3:37am

The Grauniad style guide is online here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide

teams sports teams take plural verbs: Wednesday were relegated again, Australia have won by an innings, etc; but note that in a business context, they are singular like other companies, eg Manchester United reported its biggest loss to date

tolosenc · 19-11-2010 12:55am

sceptre wrote: »

There's no sane rationale behind using "USA score" in a proper sentence unless someone wants to make a case for an invisible noun in between "USA" and "score".

What does the S stand for, again? :P

I follow the NHL (my team is the Vancouver Canucks) and I hear it all the time: "Vancouver is on the attack", "Vancouver gains possesion", but then they come out with "the Canucks has the puck" which is just wrong.

JuliusCaesar · 19-11-2010 1:00am

Ah, but the S are U.

My pet hate: 'Ireland v New Zealand' being read out on TV as 'Ireland vee New Zealand', instead of 'versus'.

More in hope than expectation!

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