Can I haz job?

Elessar · 22-10-2014 8:41am #1

So I want to be a developer and start a career as soon as possible, and I'd really appreciate some advice. I've read previous threads and put together what seems to be good steps to take to get into the industry:

1. Start a blog, write about your coding projects
2. Create apps at home, write about said apps
3. Learn a few different languages, create apps with said languages

Is there anything else I should add? More importantly, is there a way to specifically increase my chances of getting employment considering most places just hire experienced devs?

My background is that I am studying an IT degree in the evenings and I work in App Support (previously Finance). During the summer I created a desktop finance application in Java for a charity and I am currently learning Objective-C. The plan is to build a small app for iOS and Android and get it published to the app stores.

I did have an interview with a software house a few months back and while they said I interviewed well I just lacked slightly the knowledge necessary in Web development, which is what they were doing (a fair enough assessment as I'm still wet around the ears!). The owner did say to come back in a year or so.

However that was a lucky break. Most places (even startups that I've seen) are only hiring senior people, with a few offering intern positions. As I pay for college privately and have other commitments I'm not in a position to quit my job to intern.

Any advice? Am I on the right track at least?

red_bairn · 22-10-2014 9:10am

Well I would tend to disagree about there only being Senior roles available. There are entry level roles out there. I know that because the majority of MSc students from my conversion course has got a job or have begun internships.

If you haven't already, add your code to your Github account (make one if you don't have one) and add your Github account name below in your contact details section of your CV.

L.Jenkins · 22-10-2014 10:05am

Join LinkedIn. Chat with industry professionals, hiring managers and recruiters about what is expected of a Developer in the real world. As it was said before, set up a github account and upload your work, and contribute to existing projects. Outline any contributions to open source projects in your experience. <== This has a 2 prong effect, you gain experience and shows you have an interest in the industry you plan on working in. Continue to work on your blog and your own projects.

I continue to work on my own projects, even in my current role. I've since brushed up on C/C++ and learned Python and Perl. I'm now aiming for an LPIC L1 Linux System Administrator Certification and when I have the temperament for it, complete the exams for Oracle Java Associate and Professional Certifications with a view to completing the Expert exam, while studying for additional Certifications as an RHSE/RHCA and MSCD (Microsoft Certified Developer).

As a Developer, you need to keep learning, otherwise you'll get left behind. So, keep learning, working and keeping in contact with those who work in the industry.

D Hayes · 22-10-2014 1:11pm

Read up on source control (or version control). Git would be a good starting point. What it is, how to use it etc.

If you're interested in the Microsoft technology stack, check out Team Foundation Server (TFS), which takes care of source control (amongst other things) in a Microsoft environment.

c_man · 22-10-2014 9:14pm

Elessar wrote: »

3. Learn a few different languages, create apps with said languages

Sure but please know one well, and be able to talk about it. Like you mention Objective-C, if I'm interviewing you I might ask you about ARC.

Creamy Goodness · 22-10-2014 11:18pm

Go to meetups, not to find a job but to listen and learn from people who have been around the block.

Having code on GitHub/writing on a blog/having apps put you in the top 10% tbh.

mstester · 23-10-2014 10:57am

Agreed with Creamy Goodness, start writing blogs and have some code to show off on github.

I'm an Dev manager and one of things I hate seeing is people who have no online presence in terms of blogs or code to show off.

To me that usually shows a sign of they just want a pay check and don't love being in software.

In saying that I don't look for people to have massive amounts of posts or the most fantastic code. It could be as simple as a hello world program all i care about is that you have something.

Good luck in the search dude!

Graham · 23-10-2014 11:51am

mstester wrote: »

I'm an Dev manager and one of things I hate seeing is people who have no online presence in terms of blogs or code to show off.

To me that usually shows a sign of they just want a pay check and don't love being in software.

FWIW I know plenty of great developers that wouldn't feel the urge to blog about it. I can see the benefit for someone that's starting out though.

Beano · 23-10-2014 12:56pm

mstester wrote: »

Agreed with Creamy Goodness, start writing blogs and have some code to show off on github.

I'm an Dev manager and one of things I hate seeing is people who have no online presence in terms of blogs or code to show off.

To me that usually shows a sign of they just want a pay check and don't love being in software.

In saying that I don't look for people to have massive amounts of posts or the most fantastic code. It could be as simple as a hello world program all i care about is that you have something.

Good luck in the search dude!

What about those of us who have been writing software since before the word blog even existed

L.Jenkins · 23-10-2014 1:18pm

What would be even better than showcasing ones abilities through the use of Github and Wordpress is online coding tests and challenges.

Graham · 23-10-2014 1:24pm

Beano wrote: »

What about those of us who have been writing software since before the word blog even existed

Upload your punched card and ticker tape to Github

Creamy Goodness · 23-10-2014 2:01pm

Graham wrote: »

FWIW I know plenty of great developers that wouldn't feel the urge to blog about it. I can see the benefit for someone that's starting out though.

Totally, but if you're great you'll generally come off as being great from the interview and from your employment history and not have to rely on a online presence

But if the employer is has any reservations at all no matter how slight having a blog/source on GitHub etc can be a deciding factor.

On the flip side you could be the best damn developer in the country but you are an insufferable arsehole and piss off the 3 developers around you. No amount of blogs/spare time work will fix that :pac:

Generally what managers are looking for is not people who'll code 24/7, know 50% in seven language (rather than 80% of one and 50% in 2/3 others) is , willing to learn, will they fit in with the existing team.

Graham · 23-10-2014 2:34pm

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Totally, but if you're great you'll generally come off as being great from the interview and from your employment history and not have to rely on a online presence

But if the employer is has any reservations at all no matter how slight having a blog/source on GitHub etc can be a deciding factor.

On the flip side you could be the best damn developer in the country but you are an insufferable arsehole and piss off the 3 developers around you. No amount of blogs/spare time work will fix that :pac:

Generally what managers are looking for is not people who'll code 24/7, know 50% in seven language (rather than 80% of one and 50% in 2/3 others) is , willing to learn, will they fit in with the existing team.

+1 to all of that

My post was to directly counter the suggestion that 'no blog/github' equates to 'only in it for the money'.

Beano · 23-10-2014 4:14pm

Graham wrote: »

+1 to all of that

My post was to directly counter the suggestion that 'no blog/github' equates to 'only in it for the money'.

What about those of us who are only in it for the money? Whats wrong with just wanting a pay check? Doesnt mean we dont do a good job. I like to think I earn my money. Do brickies build walls for their own amusement?

Graham · 23-10-2014 4:40pm

Beano wrote: »

What about those of us who are only in it for the money? Whats wrong with just wanting a pay check?

I didn't suggest there was anything wrong with that.

Beano wrote: »

Doesnt mean we dont do a good job. I like to think I earn my money.

The big difference I can see is I.T. is a rapidly changing environment and as such it's easier to keep pace with change if you're passionate about the 'subject', I'm sure the same applies to any profession. Some might find it hard work when pushed to learn a new language or framework, someone else might be 'playing' with the same language/framework as a hobby most evenings/weekends.

None of that suggests you don't do a good job or you don't earn your money though.

Beano wrote: »

Do brickies build walls for their own amusement?

You'll probably find bricks and mortar are largely the same now as they were when the brickie graduated from 'Brickie U' 10, 20, 30 years ago. That will probably still be the case for the next 20 years until Bricks 2.0 Next Gen are released, at which time you will spot passionate brickies building Beta walls in gardens across the country.

I.T. does appear to be turning into the modern day equivalent of 'get a job in the civil service' or 'get a job in a bank'. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that but it does bring along it's own set of challenges that 'the management' will need to address.

Beano · 23-10-2014 4:55pm

Graham wrote: »

I didn't suggest there was anything wrong with that.

The big difference I can see is I.T. is a rapidly changing environment and as such it's easier to keep pace with change if you're passionate about the 'subject', I'm sure the same applies to any profession. You might find it hard work when you're pushed to learn a new language or framework, someone else might be 'playing' with the same language/framework as a hobby most evenings/weekends.
.

I've gone through 3 complete technology changes in the last 10 years. You dont need to be passionate to learn something new. Its part of the job. In fact i would say that you dont really get to understand a technology until you have to use it to meet some customer requirement.

rozeboosje · 23-10-2014 4:57pm

Beano wrote: »

What about those of us who are only in it for the money? Whats wrong with just wanting a pay check? Doesnt mean we dont do a good job. I like to think I earn my money. Do brickies build walls for their own amusement?

There's nothing that says "you're appreciated" quite as much as a big, juicy pay check.

moycullen14 · 23-10-2014 5:06pm

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Go to meetups, not to find a job but to listen and learn from people who have been around the block.

Having code on GitHub/writing on a blog/having apps put you in the top 10% tbh.

It doesn't.

What puts you in the top 10% is a) being smart b) being willing to learn c) getting a job done and d) being able to work well with other people.

If you have all of the above, you'll have a fine career in IT (or anything else for that matter).

moycullen14 · 23-10-2014 5:12pm

mstester wrote: »

Agreed with Creamy Goodness, start writing blogs and have some code to show off on github.

I'm an Dev manager and one of things I hate seeing is people who have no online presence in terms of blogs or code to show off.

To me that usually shows a sign of they just want a pay check and don't love being in software.

In saying that I don't look for people to have massive amounts of posts or the most fantastic code. It could be as simple as a hello world program all i care about is that you have something.

Why? What does having a hello world program in a blog prove? Except, maybe, that you're a bit of a narcissist?

On your other point, there is a 'contract' between employee and employer. Each party brings something to the table. Money, career progression, opportunity on the employer side. Skill, experience, ability to get a job done on the employee side. I'm not sure where 'love' comes into it. What is the company providing in exchange for my 'love' of software? How does it help me satisfy your needs as an employer?

I'm not having a go. I hear this sort of thing a lot and I'm genuinely interested in why people think it's important.

Graham · 23-10-2014 5:20pm

Beano wrote: »

I've gone through 3 complete technology changes in the last 10 years. You dont need to be passionate to learn something new. Its part of the job.

Like I said "might find it hard work when pushed to learn".

You obviously get the changing technology aspect of the job but there's plenty of developers out there that don't. I've been party to many conversations where a developer is genuinely put out when he/she learns the platform/language they've always worked on is no longer going to be used for new development.

Beano wrote: »

In fact i would say that you don't really get to understand a technology until you have to use it to meet some customer requirement.

I would largely agree with that sentiment. It's the application of technology in real-world, every-day use that makes the difference in what we do.

I say largely agree because the pioneers and early-adopters generally pave the way for the guys and gals at the coal face of meeting customer requirements.

CentimoSal · 23-10-2014 5:59pm

If they mention any frameworks in the job spec - don't apply. You should be comfortable with a blank text editor and then be able to start coding straight away. (It also helps to deliberately disable the public internet, and code from memory). Also - ask them if they allow you to bring your own machine for working on; as many devs have their own bespoke setup and can get things done possibly 1000% faster with their own machine.

In terms of whether this is the right path, and whether you should pursue this path. Old sage wisdom here:

stilldrinking․org/programming-sucks
youtube․com/watch?v=csyL9EC0S0c
daedtech․com/have-a-cigar
youtube․com/watch?v=lKXe3HUG2l4

Be careful - it's a bit mental if you haven't done your homework on it...It's hard to be a sane developer these days, unless you 'specialize' - which you dont want to do when you're young - believe me!

Graham · 23-10-2014 6:10pm

CentimoSal wrote: »

If they mention any frameworks in the job spec - don't apply. You should be comfortable with a blank text editor and then be able to start coding straight away. (It also helps to deliberately disable the public internet, and code from memory). Also - ask them if they allow you to bring your own machine for working on; as many devs have their own bespoke setup and can get things done possibly 1000% faster with their own machine.

I'm not sure I'd agree with each of those specifics for someone starting their career.

You've ruled out huge swathes of potential employers with a single stroke and a freshly minted developer is more likely to have a ropey laptop than their own turbo-powered coding powerhouse with bespoke configuration.

If you wake up in the middle of silicon valley each morning, ignore the previous paragraph.

Elessar · 23-10-2014 6:16pm

Thanks all for the replies. I'm approaching my 30s and after many years wafting about I've decided I want to get started in development as soon as possible. If only I had done this years ago! I love my course and despite having reservations about programming it's now my favourite thing about IT.

As I said I work in support but I'm unhappy in it and the company I work for and want to code for a living. I'm going to start applying for junior positions and see where I get. Even a Java support+junior dev role would be great (I see a few of these). I'll do up a website with a blog and get a github a/c and upload my code there. I have at least one project (the finance app) to show off, I know it isn't much but it's something!

L.Jenkins · 24-10-2014 9:47am

Do you have much experience in Java at the moment?

Elessar · 24-10-2014 9:55am

Itzy wrote: »

Do you have much experience in Java at the moment?

No work experience unfortunately, just the app I've created and my coursework. I'm comfortable with using the language but I'm always learning more.

Edit: I'm thinking I'll have more luck getting into another support role around java or other languages, and moving on from there?

John_Mc · 24-10-2014 12:19pm

CentimoSal wrote: »

If they mention any frameworks in the job spec - don't apply. You should be comfortable with a blank text editor and then be able to start coding straight away. (It also helps to deliberately disable the public internet, and code from memory). Also - ask them if they allow you to bring your own machine for working on; as many devs have their own bespoke setup and can get things done possibly 1000% faster with their own machine.

You've clearly never been on the hiring end if you're suggesting this. There's no point in not being clear about the frameworks and technologies required for a role because it saves everyone time. If I'm looking for a .NET developer with experience in MVC 4+, C#, and entity framework then there's no point in someone without these skills applying for the job. Clearly stating what is required is a must, and you'd be a fool to disregard a job just because it does this.

Also, about bringing your own computer to work - this is not always possible for a number of reasons. It's s security risk for a start and requires infrastructure to mitigate the risk.

I think it's more important that the equipment supplied has a high spec and there aren't any local permissions restricted which don't allow full control. That's far more important in my opinion.

Can I haz job?

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