Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

Beasty · 19-02-2015 12:26am

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

It's not up to the Garda to make the judgement on this however. That is what the court system is for. A Garda presents evidence in support of a suspected breach of ...

I had suggested previously that a legal opinion was obtained by the club in respect of the situation. I wonder was that ever done. I'm sure there must be case law and precedent out there.

The issue is though, even if such an opinion was obtained (and I fully understand the technical arguments that s74 is not actually relevant as no races have ever, to my knowledge, been prescribed in line with s74(i)), the Gardai may (and indeed do) take an alternative view.

Of course clubs could then run races based on that legal opinion, but subject to the CI rules requiring them to notify the Gardai of the race

So the race is run. The Gardai turn up and simply observe. They see riders 3 abreast. They see riders crossing unbroken white lines. They see riders failing to stop or yield at junctions. Do you think those riders are immune from prosecution? Do you think the organisers who have effectively encouraged the riders to break various provisions within the road traffic legislation are immune from prosecution?

Lusk_Doyle · 19-02-2015 12:30am

Beasty wrote: »

The issue is though, even if such an opinion was obtained (and I fully understand the technical arguments that s74 is not actually relevant as no races have ever, to my knowledge, been prescribed in line with s74(i)), the Gardai may (and indeed do) take an alternative view.

Of course clubs could then run races based on that legal opinion, but subject to the CI rules requiring them to notify the Gardai of the race

So the race is run. The Gardai turn up and simply observe. They see riders 3 abreast. They see riders crossing unbroken white lines. They see riders failing to stop or yield at junctions. Do you think those riders are immune from prosecution? Do you think the organisers who have effectively encouraged the riders to break various provisions within the road traffic legislation are immune from prosecution?

No, and I'm not suggesting that they are. I'm just interested in a legal opinion on the matter backed up with case law.

Lusk_Doyle · 19-02-2015 12:34am

Raam wrote: »

He will make judgement on whether or not he wants to prosecute you. Do you want to be the race organiser to test this?

I'm not a race organiser. I'm also not suggesting that one flounts the law with respect to the matter being discussed. My previous posts are quite clear in this regard. I simply wondered had a legal opinion been given.

Beasty · 19-02-2015 12:35am

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

No, and I'm not suggesting that they are. I'm just interested in a legal opinion on the matter backed up with case law.

But what is the use of that opinion if you are then left with the basic rules of the road which it's pretty much impossible to comply with in a road race situation? Yes you can even present that opinion to the Gardai. They may even agree with it, but they still have the power to stop any road race under existing legislation. For that reason it is critical to keep them onboard and not wind them up by presenting legal opinions that don't address all the relevant issues

Beasty · 19-02-2015 12:40am

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

I'm not a race organiser. I'm also not suggesting that one flounts the law with respect to the matter being discussed. My previous posts are quite clear in this regard. I simply wondered had a legal opinion been given.

I am not aware of any legal opinion, although I personally do believe that s74 cannot be applied as no races (again AFAIK) have been prescribed. I am questioning the value of such an opinion given the points I have made about the general road traffic legislation. My concern is attempting to present such an opinion to the Gardai (in Fingal or indeed elsewhere) may spectacularly backfire as they can prevent racing by applying much more starightforward legislation

Raam · 19-02-2015 12:49am

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

I'm not a race organiser. I'm also not suggesting that one flounts the law with respect to the matter being discussed. My previous posts are quite clear in this regard. I simply wondered had a legal opinion been given.

The question isn't for you personally. It is to show the rock/hard-place situation in NCD. Some folk say that the legislation allows road races to take place, but others (Fingal, Garda) say no. Who wants to be the one to test that?

Beasty · 19-02-2015 12:58am

Raam wrote: »

The question isn't for you personally. It is to show the rock/hard-place situation in NCD. Some folk say that the legislation allows road races to take place, but others (Fingal, Garda) say no. Who wants to be the one to test that?

Certainly not our club, particularly as we have now received the OK to run TTs (100% within road traffic legislation), and also have found the local authority very co-operative when it comes to running CX races (the recent CX nationals were run on Fingal CoCo property for example). The last thing we want to do at present is raise the stakes with the local authorities and risk losiing the goodwill we do have. In my view this whole issue is much better dealt with at national level (and I am aware of discussions taking place involving government departments and CI)

wav1 · 19-02-2015 8:07am

I feel it needs to be tested,and worse case scenario is they stop it,but test it.

Lusk_Doyle · 19-02-2015 9:02am

Raam wrote: »

The question isn't for you personally. It is to show the rock/hard-place situation in NCD. Some folk say that the legislation allows road races to take place, but others (Fingal, Garda) say no. Who wants to be the one to test that?

What is wrong with testing it though? The current situation is that no road races are allowed on open roads. This is despite any fact based evidence (to my knowledge) from the coco and gardai as to the point that it is not possible to run a race within the rotr.

Even when a closed road is given you are not guaranteed gardai presence.

The cx stuff takes place in parks so that's not relevant to the discussion re the road.

We are being precluded from doing an activity without it actually having been demonstrated how we have/will have breached the law.

Beasty · 19-02-2015 10:25am

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

What is wrong with testing it though?

How are you proposing to test it? Turn up, run a race, get the organisers and/or racers arrested, start a campaign here to "Free the Lusk One"?

Raam · 19-02-2015 10:39am

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

What is wrong with testing it though? The current situation is that no road races are allowed on open roads. This is despite any fact based evidence (to my knowledge) from the coco and gardai as to the point that it is not possible to run a race within the rotr.

Even when a closed road is given you are not guaranteed gardai presence.

The cx stuff takes place in parks so that's not relevant to the discussion re the road.

We are being precluded from doing an activity without it actually having been demonstrated how we have/will have breached the law.

What is wrong with testing it? Nothing, but that person then has to deal with whatever is thrown at them. As long as the race organiser is happy to do that, no problem, but I wouldn't be doing it.

niceonetom · 19-02-2015 10:40am

desertcircus wrote: »

If a race cannot operate without riders violating the rules of the road ... then it shouldn't go ahead. Full stop.

I'm quoting this mostly for the benefit of those who thanked this post, some of whom I know to be racers themselves.

Strictly interpreted, the law states that cyclists may ride no more than two-abreast with a third allowed to overtake on the right. That's it. Does anyone here want to argue that a race could be run on that basis? That any group of riders following that strict interpretation of this legislation could really race each other meaningfully? It would be a farce.

By thanking this post, and by implication agreeing with this statement, you are effectively calling for an end to racing in Ireland (with the possible exception of the Rás, which has the clout to be run with rolling closures).

Now it's clear that there are some sportive cyclists (am I allowed to call them that or is it pejorative now?) who would be absolutely fine with an end to racing, but I'm actually a bit shocked to see racers agreeing with them.

I hope you just haven't thought about properly.

As for those calling for ever more cameras and publication of the misdemeanors that take place in every single race (and always have) - maybe you argue that'll lead to reform but that seems naive to me. Much more likely it'll lead directly to the same destination as above - no more races. There won't be anything left to reform.

Lots of high minded ideals here. Hands-on-hips, swaggering certainty and righteousness. But I think you'll miss racing.

07Lapierre · 19-02-2015 11:07am

niceonetom wrote: »

I'm quoting this mostly for the benefit of those who thanked this post, some of whom I know to be racers themselves.

Strictly interpreted, the law states that cyclists may ride no more than two-abreast with a third allowed to overtake on the right. That's it. Does anyone here want to argue that a race could be run on that basis? That any group of riders following that strict interpretation of this legislation could really race each other meaningfully? It would be a farce.

.

Not quite... road racing is legal as long as the Local authority are notified and do not object to the "Race".

The Local authority can:

a: refuse approval to run the race. in which case your scenario is correct...cycle over 2 abreast and your breaking the law

or

b: allow the race but implement certain conditions.

So once you have approval from your local authority, your good to go..But it really depends on what conditions they insist on. if they dont insist on any conditions, fine, but in Fingal they have insisted on fully closed roads.

mcgratheoin · 19-02-2015 11:25am

GMCI wrote: »

If a rider feels aggrieved by the fact that he was suspended, he will investigate the circumstances and realise that CI Tech Regulations give no permission for recording devices in the peloton and as such may attempt to have the case thrown out or even take the legal avenue against the Provincial Executive based on the fact that the evidence used to suspend should not have been active in the first place. Its one thing saying suspend them all, its another in making the Disciplinary cases stick. Much more difficult than you think .

Just wondering - why does there have to be camera footage? Surely if a marshall observes cyclist x flouting the rules of the road (and of the race) then that should be sufficient to initiate whatever disciplinary proceedings exist, be that disqualification or suspension. Only at the top top level of sport is camera footage a regular feature of disciplinary cases, there are plenty of football, gaa, rugby players sent off and suspended every week without an argument over whether there is or is not illegally filmed footage.

Chips Lovell · 19-02-2015 11:39am

Stuff that isn't conducive to constructive debate:

1. Hyberbole, e.g. "omerta" etc.

2. Strawman arguments, e.g. "saying we shouldn't care about safety is outrageous".

3. Rushing in and condemning what you think the other person is saying, rather than what they were actually saying, the unintentional strawman as it were

4. Proposing unrealistic or unworkable solutions, such as assuming that race organisers, commissaires or Cycling Ireland have unlimited money and manpower at their disposal. Or that people without the power to make rule changes or issue penalties should do so

5. Misinformation/misinterpretation of the law.

Plastik · 19-02-2015 11:39am

I observed a moto marshal riding for prolonged stretches on the wrong side of the road at the weekend. Can I report him to someone?

CramCycle · 19-02-2015 12:33pm

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Just wondering - why does there have to be camera footage? Surely if a marshall observes cyclist x flouting the rules of the road (and of the race) then that should be sufficient to initiate whatever disciplinary proceedings exist, be that disqualification or suspension. Only at the top top level of sport is camera footage a regular feature of disciplinary cases, there are plenty of football, gaa, rugby players sent off and suspended every week without an argument over whether there is or is not illegally filmed footage.

As far as I know, a marshall can report a rider they perceive as dangerous to the comms, not sure if its regularly done but the comms at the national 2 or 3 years ago told us to do so. Nothing happened.

I presume that the camera footage is so that the rider has no comeback, most of the marshalls maybe riders themselves, and you could have someone argue that it was intentional reporting to get them DQd, although I can only see this as an overpowering issue if the rider reported got points.

Beasty · 19-02-2015 1:04pm

CramCycle wrote: »

As far as I know, a marshall can report a rider they perceive as dangerous to the comms, not sure if its regularly done but the comms at the national 2 or 3 years ago told us to do so. Nothing happened.

I suspect this largely allows them to then look out for specifics from that individual going forward, and possibly have a word about future behaviour

However it is a fundamental problem with Road racing that the Comms simply cannot be everywhere and they will get a very limited view of what goes on (and I'll contrast this with the track where the coaches can see pretty much everything that's going on, and act accordingly, making it in my view a much safer racing environment)

Interestingly the IVCA do have a process where riders get reported by other riders/committee members/marshals. Last year there were quite a number of suspensions following reports of racers riding on the wrong side of the road or otherwise riding dangerously. Although that sort of discipline can also be applied at club league level I don't think it's possible/feasible to apply anything like that within open races.

NeedMoreGears · 19-02-2015 1:29pm

I don't race but I do enjoy the occasional sportif. Hence I have to say I wasn't overjoyed at the earlier exhortation to go try a sportif if you're not up to real man stuff like racing. The assertion that different parts of the RTA applied to non-racing prompted me to wonder whether or not there is a full understanding that the primary purpose of the road network and the regulations governing their use relates to transport and not racing. The ability to race, which so many clearly enjoy and benefit from, is not a right.

As I mentioned above, I enjoy sportifs. They seem to me to feature some (perhaps all) of the illegal/dangerous riding described above. You get gangs rolling down the wrong side, dangerous driving (bikes are vehicles that are driven - they're just not mechanically propelled) etc. Sportifs are parhaps even harder to marshall and the potential for sanction is quite limited. There is no CI number to revoke (the practicalities of such revocation notwithstanding).

So what do we want the future to look like?

I'd like to be able to continue to enter sportifs. Many others would like to continue racing.

To me, that means we need to behave like grown ups on the road and not endanger members of the public or our fellow cyclists (at least as far as cyclists are concerned not beyond what is considered normal in the particular event). Ergo obey the provisions of the RTA (with maybe a bit of "flexibility" re the two abreast/one pass rule in races).

In an increasingly camera filled world, we need to be concious that there will be plenty of evidence of bad behaviour by cyclists if we choose to behave that way. So let's not.

FrankGrimes · 19-02-2015 1:36pm

niceonetom wrote: »

Lots of high minded ideals here. Hands-on-hips, swaggering certainty and righteousness. But I think you'll miss racing.

Fair point and I used to be one of those guys. The level of danger in A4 races arising from unnecessary wrong-siding had me pretty freaked out and I would rant about it. I can deal with the dangers inherent in racing a bike: there will be slips and comings together, that's inevitable. But 10 guys being taken out by a muppet on the wrong side swerving in when a car came around a corner (as I've witnessed) should not be regarded as an acceptable part of the sport.

But I agree with the essence of the point that we don't want the medicine to kill the patient. Hey, if I get taken out of it by wrong-siding behaviour, I'll break bones. But if racing were to get shut down, that'd break my heart. No beer and no racing make Homer go something something.

I think pretty much everyone has positive and similar intentions - they want to ensure we can continue racing and to make it safer if possible. So I'd also prefer to see more emphasis on things that can be done that are within the cycling community's control rather than worrying about potential external intervention.

GMCI, thanks for sharing your thoughts and I understand where you're coming from. And it's very encouraging to hear that you and CI have some ideas that are being worked through. Great to hear that and would love to learn more about it when the time is right.

For my own part, I've resolved to accept that wrong-siding isn't going away anytime soon so to put it out of my mind and, as GMCI suggested, focus on breakaways to try get away from it. I've attacked in every race I've been in, but now realise I wasn't doing it right due to my fitness and tactical limitations. I'll stay away until late April/May when I hope to be fit enough and wise enough to form more effective breakaways. So my hands are off my hips and I'm off the high horse, but it still does seem like it'd be a missed opportunity if at least some form of change doesn't come out of all this.

But what I would ask you to consider GMCI is if you're really comfortable with the position (personal, not CI, as it may be) that you have put across? I'd suggest it would seem a little similar to someone saying a few years back "rugby is a tough sport and there are dangers which must be accepted". It strikes me as a little facile and too passive. For example, rugby outlawed spear tackles and tackles in the air quite effectively and thereby mitigated some risks. It's still a risky sport, but players know that best efforts will be made to mitigate unreasonable risks.

Not being able to do everything does not mean we should not do something.

I feel if CI were seen to be taking a proactive approach clearly demonstrating that while they can't solve everything, here's some specific things they are doing that are within their control, that'd be very well received, and all that anyone can reasonably ask in my opinion.

One thing the thread has done is give me a much better appreciation on the level of effort, and to some extent, risk, that race organisers undertake. I for one haven't given them enough thanks for that - fair play to them for their dedication that enables all of us to go out there and race our bikes. Long may it continue, hopefully with a few positive tweaks here and there along the way.

lennymc · 19-02-2015 4:06pm

Plastik wrote: »

I observed a moto marshal riding for prolonged stretches on the wrong side of the road at the weekend. Can I report him to someone?

bl00dy motorcyclists....

Just in relation to the IVCA - are there any steps being taken (apart from the ones listed above by beasty) to address the issues here? Joe Public isn't going to be able to distinguish an IVCA race from a CI race.

Beasty · 19-02-2015 4:28pm

lennymc wrote: »

Just in relation to the IVCA - are there any steps being taken (apart from the ones listed above by beasty) to address the issues here? Joe Public isn't going to be able to distinguish an IVCA race from a CI race.

The IVCA have cut their races going through Batterstown and tend to use quiet roads mainly on Sunday mornings/Tuesday evenings. They now do an official marshal briefing session pre-season and lay down the law to any racers caught "offending" including white line offences with regular suspensions being invoked. In addition they have pretty much done away with CPs as the fields were simply getting too big. They will usually run 3 separate races on the same circuit on a DMS basis (the do the occasional limited Age-related CP still)

I think I can safely say the IVCA really has upped it's game on safety matters over the past couple of years

lennymc · 19-02-2015 4:40pm

remind me what CPs and DMS are again?

(Brain fart day)

Beasty · 19-02-2015 4:46pm

CP = handicapped race with the slowest group off first, fastest last, risking it being a very big bunch at the end if/when it all comes together

DMS = Divided Mass Start - separate races, fastest off first, slowest off last, on a circuit that (ideally!) prevents the races ever meeting, meaning you keep the groups small

Lusk_Doyle · 19-02-2015 9:17pm

Beasty wrote: »

How are you proposing to test it? Turn up, run a race, get the organisers and/or racers arrested, start a campaign here to "Free the Lusk One"?

No, no, not at all. In my mind it's more to do with the discussion with the coco and the Gardai. These organisations should be approaching the matter with a "what can we do to facilitate this" attitude rather than what appears to have been a straight up negative "you are not allowed / we will not allow" approach. they should be doing everything in their power to facilitate, help and encourage sporting events.

Take the Swords club league. You get say 20 - 30 riders at any one race in the past few years. That's approx 4 - 5 groups of max 6 riders on the road. They ride in single file, with a pace line moving up and over. When the slower groups are caught, they don't spread out and fill the road. The same single line with the pace line, often one rider at a time, continues. I have not seen a mass finish with more than two / three riders abreast recently either. The third rider obviously coming past the others. The finishes in these races are predominately a one after the other affair rather than a large group.

What is the objection to this? It works. It's within the law.

Why can't or won't a rep from the coco and the Gardai come along to one of these to witness it in practice? Again, it needs to be a work together approach as opposed to what we have now.

This is what I mean by testing. Not going out alone and see what happens.

ROK ON · 19-02-2015 10:25pm

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Stuff that isn't conducive to constructive debate:

1. Hyberbole, e.g. "omerta"

Et al et al

Absolutely. I certainly meant no offence nor hyperbole and withdraw the ott use of the word.
I was annoyed that some posters felt this is not an issue worthy of debate in a public forum. I withdraw that remark.

On a related issue I see significant merit in LuskDoyles suggestions. Cycling is all the weaker for operating in a grey area and it is a grey area if one side says racing is illegal and another said says it is not. Grey and unacceptable for those involved in promoting and volunteering.

Beasty · 19-02-2015 11:42pm

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Why can't or won't a rep from the coco and the Gardai come along to one of these to witness it in practice? Again, it needs to be a work together approach as opposed to what we have now.

Strenuous efforts have been made over recent years toi get the buy-in of the authorities. The Council have actually been very co-operative and made themselves available for a number of meetings involving the club and representatives of CI (and I have attanded one of those meetings). I am aware of one other club in the area that has had similar support when seeking meetings with the Council

Unfortunately getting Gardai attendance at such meetings has been a little more challenging although I think they did turn up to one. The message though has been consistent throughout. The Council will not support (club league) racing on their roads without the Gardai also supporting such racing. The Gardai have stated that such racing can only take place on closed roads and the Council have made it very clear they would seek to co-operate in getting road closures in place. I have though already alluded to the issues of getting full road closures on appropriate roads in the area. Trying to do so for a 20 week club league is very impractical

Let's also be clear on another thing. The Gardai have been in attendance at a number of open races in the area over the past couple of years. Unfortunately the racing they have witnessed in those races has certainly coloured their views on road racing and resulted in them essentially pulling down the shutters on any racing on open roads within Fingal. They see a race as a race whether there are 30 or 130 participants (and again it is not that long ago that the club league was seeing field approaching 100)

wav1 · 19-02-2015 11:55pm

Beasty wrote: »

Strenuous efforts have been made over recent years toi get the buy-in of the authorities. The Council have actually been very co-operative and made themselves available for a number of meetings involving the club and representatives of CI (and I have attanded one of those meetings). I am aware of one other club in the area that has had similar support when seeking meetings with the Council

Unfortunately getting Gardai attendance at such meetings has been a little more challenging although I think they did turn up to one. The message though has been consistent throughout. The Council will not support (club league) racing on their roads without the Gardai also supporting such racing. The Gardai have stated that such racing can only take place on closed roads and the Council have made it very clear they would seek to co-operate in getting road closures in place. I have though already alluded to the issues of getting full road closures on appropriate roads in the area. Trying to do so for a 20 week club league is very impractical

Let's also be clear on another thing. The Gardai have been in attendance at a number of open races in the area over the past couple of years. Unfortunately the racing they have witnessed in those races has certainly coloured their views on road racing and resulted in them essentially pulling down the shutters on any racing on open roads within Fingal. They see a race as a race whether there are 30 or 130 participants (and again it is not that long ago that the club league was seeing field approaching 100)

As a once of trial how much do you reckon and how much hassle would be involved,in getting a one off 4 hr road closure?

Beasty · 20-02-2015 12:11am

wav1 wrote: »

As a once of trial how much do you reckon and how much hassle would be involved,in getting a one off 4 hr road closure?

The local tri club did it last year (including the road outside my house). They used a very short circuit though. I went out to see what was happening and witnessed a bit of grief from motorists whenever they got held up (no-where near as bad as I've seen iun Skerries during the Ras, but I normally have a Guard on my corner to help out!)

We were thinking about it for the Grand Prix, but that uses the Old N1 and is a 20+km circuit, making diversions very difficult and requiring a lot of marshals at the road intersections. I think getting it for a very short circuit as a one-off will certainly be possible, but we took the view that for club league races it was a lot less hassle to run a few TTs entirely within the RoTR, a few races at Corkagh Park, and a few more in Co Meath (where some of our regular circuits were anyway)

EDIT - just to add there are some advertising costs associated with road closures, but the Council did offer to help out on that front

J Madone · 20-02-2015 10:02am

wav1 wrote: »

As a once of trial how much do you reckon and how much hassle would be involved,in getting a one off 4 hr road closure?

Exactly Wav,
Gardai want 80 an hour afaik per officer. It amuses me, the guys who have the strongest opinions have probably never organised a race.
Im not talking about waving a flag.
Was on a committee for a few years that ran club and the biggest oneday race in Ireland.
The ammount of work involved barely justifies the end result. A lot of headaches for all.
The guys with the least success do the most shouting around here.

Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

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