M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

neddynasty · 27-09-2017 4:26pm

Will a successful bid for the Rugby World Cup 2023 have any bearing on the M20?
Could a successful bid expedite the planning/building of the M20?
Thomand and Pairc Ui Chaoimh are on the list to host games if the WRC bid is successful. The M7 widening was completed for the Ryder Cup in The K Club.

fonzy951 · 27-09-2017 4:37pm

grogi wrote: »

But it is political.

A road infrastructure influences where direct investments go (you would like to build your factory in a place, where products can be shipped from).

Investments bring jobs and prosperity.

I know its political but it shouldn't be, that's my point. Deciding on which roads get upgraded first should be based on a clear set of criteria such as safety, traffic levels, ROI etc.. (pretty obvious stuff you would think) and not on political favouritism and influence.
The M20/NRR should have been much higher up the list than other projects.

Aontachtoir · 27-09-2017 4:38pm

marno21 wrote: »

fonzy951 wrote: »

The NRR (atleast eastern part) will have to be done in parallel with the M20, I can't understand why this has been omitted from planning. All road building projects should be completely removed from politics and an independent FAIR body should be setup immediately (TII are incompetent) which prioritize on criteria such as safety, traffic levels etc.. and not on where the minister comes from or they got their planning first nonsense. The M20 and NRR should have been built away ahead of some completed projects around the country and its a real scandal tbh.

TII have had the M20 as their top priority with near on 10 years, but they have been told not to build it and build other schemes instead

The current plans for roads are the result of political interference, not the TII.

TII have had many roads that they did not receive funding to build, many in areas as poorly or more poorly served than the Cork-Limerick corridor. The M20 is projected to be extremely expensive, and you can't pull the trigger on a project like this without being pretty certain that funding will be available. A choice has to be made - send funding to other areas of the country and invest in smaller desperately-needed roads, or sit on the pile for several years of zero investment and wait for it to grow enough to build the M20?
Cork are not victims of a conspiracy.

nordydan · 27-09-2017 4:41pm

neddynasty wrote: »

Will a successful bid for the Rugby World Cup 2023 have any bearing on the M20?
Could a successful bid expedite the planning/building of the M20?
Thomand and Pairc Ui Chaoimh are on the list to host games if the WRC bid is successful. The M7 widening was completed for the Ryder Cup in The K Club.

It could well do, remember the Ryder Cup and the N7 upgrade...

boardsuser1 · 27-09-2017 4:41pm

I know this article isn't about the M20, but the comments are heavily M20 related.

http://www.thejournal.ie/new-motorway-3617551-Sep2017/?utm_source=shortlink

fonzy951 · 27-09-2017 4:52pm

marno21 wrote: »

TII have had the M20 as their top priority with near on 10 years, but they have been told not to build it and build other schemes instead

The current plans for roads are the result of political interference, not the TII.

The TII should have pushed back on political interference, and made more noise about which projects should get priority, in my book that's incompetence. If you look at some of the projects which got built ahead of M20 and NRR, it's a scandal.

Aontachtoir · 27-09-2017 5:02pm

Creating a political ruckus is absolutely not the job of TII. They set out the road options and the costs, with recommendations for how the money available is best spent. Politicians then approve one project or another based on how much money is available to their departments.

The fact that other desperately-needed roads which cost less were done before another desperately-needed road which was unaffordably expensive is neither incompetence nor malice. It's just making the best of a bad situation.

fonzy951 · 27-09-2017 5:12pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Creating a political ruckus is absolutely not the job of TII. They set out the road options and the costs, with recommendations for how the money available is best spent. Politicians then approve one project or another based on how much money is available to their departments.

The fact that other desperately-needed roads which cost less were done before another desperately-needed road which was unaffordably expensive is neither incompetence nor malice. It's just making the best of a bad situation.

Politicians SHOULD not be deciding on which projects get funded first (for obvious reasons) imo, the TII or another independent expert body should be allocated funds from government and they should decide what goes ahead.

AugustusMinimus · 27-09-2017 5:23pm

There is no way this can be built in time for the 2023 World Cup.

If anything this is the infrastructural deficit that will lose us the tournament. There’s isn’t even a bloody train between both cities at present.

Water John · 27-09-2017 6:34pm

We'll fly the journalists from Cork to Shannon, in order they don't see the quaint road.
It doesn't matter about the teams.

Aontachtoir · 27-09-2017 7:26pm

fonzy951 wrote: »

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Creating a political ruckus is absolutely not the job of TII. They set out the road options and the costs, with recommendations for how the money available is best spent. Politicians then approve one project or another based on how much money is available to their departments.

The fact that other desperately-needed roads which cost less were done before another desperately-needed road which was unaffordably expensive is neither incompetence nor malice. It's just making the best of a bad situation.

Politicians SHOULD not be deciding on which projects get funded first (for obvious reasons) imo, the TII or another independent expert body should be allocated funds from government and they should decide what goes ahead.

That sounds great. However, you and I both know that if this was to go ahead, the same people would be complaining about "unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats" deciding where to invest in our infrastructure - especially when they find out that certain projects are still going to be prioritized ahead of their own preferred projects.

There just isn't enough money for everything to happen at once. Someone has to make the call on which projects get approved and which get postponed, and there is no perfect model for doing this. In a country like this one, the most sustainable model is to have an elected official acting on the advice of an expert panel, taking the wishes of citizens into account too.

bk · 27-09-2017 8:10pm

fonzy951 wrote: »

Politicians SHOULD not be deciding on which projects get funded first (for obvious reasons) imo, the TII or another independent expert body should be allocated funds from government and they should decide what goes ahead.

As much as I hate our political parish pump, I think it is only right that our elected representatives get to make the final call on how billions of tax payers money gets spent.

If we aren't happy with their decisions then it is up to us to elect politicians who make better decisions.

This is how it works pretty much all over the world. I'm not aware of any country where politicians don't have the final say on major projects.

What TII brings, is a level of professionalism that we previously lacked. They do detailed studies into various projects, show the usage levels, etc. and push certain projects. This stops the politicians going off on complete flights of fancy.

TII might not have gotten the projects in the priority they would have preferred, but at least the projects they did get through, were badly needed too.

Truth is the M20 at 1 billion was simply too expensive to fly under the radar in the middle of a recession. People would have been up in arms. That in the end is democracy for you.

fonzy951 · 27-09-2017 8:40pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

That sounds great. However, you and I both know that if this was to go ahead, the same people would be complaining about "unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats" deciding where to invest in our infrastructure - especially when they find out that certain projects are still going to be prioritized ahead of their own preferred projects.

There just isn't enough money for everything to happen at once. Someone has to make the call on which projects get approved and which get postponed, and there is no perfect model for doing this. In a country like this one, the most sustainable model is to have an elected official acting on the advice of an expert panel, taking the wishes of citizens into account too.

I think you mean taking the interest's of their own VOTERS into account when making the final decision

I know we don't have the money to build everything at once, that's why you start with projects with greatest need first surely.

The TII or another independent expert body should decide where the funds are allocated based on set criteria, projects with greatest requirements should be built first, this would take political interference out of the equation. No wonder Waterford have better roads than Cork, I'm sure the previous Minister Cullen pondered long and hard over the NRA reports on deciding where funds should be allocated.

Aontachtoir · 27-09-2017 9:21pm

fonzy951 wrote: »

Aontachtoir wrote: »

That sounds great. However, you and I both know that if this was to go ahead, the same people would be complaining about "unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats" deciding where to invest in our infrastructure - especially when they find out that certain projects are still going to be prioritized ahead of their own preferred projects.

There just isn't enough money for everything to happen at once. Someone has to make the call on which projects get approved and which get postponed, and there is no perfect model for doing this. In a country like this one, the most sustainable model is to have an elected official acting on the advice of an expert panel, taking the wishes of citizens into account too.

I think you mean taking the interest's of their own VOTERS into account when making the final decision

I know we don't have the money to build everything at once, that's why you start with projects with greatest need first surely.

The TII or another independent expert body should decide where the funds are allocated based on set criteria, projects with greatest requirements should be built first, this would take political interference out of the equation. No wonder Waterford have better roads than Cork, I'm sure the previous Minister Cullen pondered long and hard over the NRA reports on deciding where funds should be allocated.

There will always be political pressure, and citizens in a democracy will not be any happier if they see road projects being prioritized or postponed by people they have no vote over.

I don't agree that County Waterford has better roads than we do in Cork. Waterford city has a lovely new bypass, but it's about 6 km long. The N25 is nothing to boast about, and the N72 is in shocking state. Same with the N24 (although that goes through County Kilkenny). Furthermore, Cork is set to get the Dunkettle upgrade, the M28, the N22 bypass, and increasingly looks likely to get the long-awaited M20. All with a Dublin Taoiseach and Minister for Transport.

Doltanian · 27-09-2017 10:18pm

500m to 1 billion is small change, I can't see why they don't borrow the money and open a temporary toll plaza with a countdown timer @ €2 per journey and it wouldn't take that long before it would be paid back, this idea of long 30 year concessions is a joke and the tolls should be lifted when the thing is paid for. There isn't a huge amount of money for building new motorways but they would pay for themselves with increased economic output, and economic growth, use a temporary toll to help pay them. If there was a nationwide network of motorways built costing say €10bn it would give the country a huge economic boost and I'd happily pay the toll each time.

Kevwoody · 27-09-2017 11:14pm

Doltanian wrote: »

500m to 1 billion is small change, I can't see why they don't borrow the money and open a temporary toll plaza with a countdown timer @ €2 per journey and it wouldn't take that long before it would be paid back, this idea of long 30 year concessions is a joke and the tolls should be lifted when the thing is paid for. There isn't a huge amount of money for building new motorways but they would pay for themselves with increased economic output, and economic growth, use a temporary toll to help pay them. If there was a nationwide network of motorways built costing say €10bn it would give the country a huge economic boost and I'd happily pay the toll each time.

Ok.
So say a road costs 1 Billion and you want to charge 2 euro per car.
It would take 45,000 cars per day 30 years to pay that back. Not exactly a "temporary Toll". And that doesn't take into account maintenance and toll plaza running costs.

marno21 · 28-09-2017 12:37am

https://twitter.com/FineGael/status/913057443067912192

So Leo has once again told us he is all for the M20. This is encouraging, a big difference from the attitude of our last "leader" towards the project.

The opening of 54km of motorway and 4km of dual carriageway between Tuam and Gort today means we now have an Atlantic Corridor from south of Milltown to Patrickswell. The gaping hole between Patrickswell and Blarney will now be clear for all to see, and will become a major issue come election time as the opening of the M17/M18 has been fairly well publicised and yet again Cork gets left in the 1980s.

Aontachtoir · 28-09-2017 4:38am

marno21 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/FineGael/status/913057443067912192

So Leo has once again told us he is all for the M20. This is encouraging, a big difference from the attitude of our last "leader" towards the project.

The opening of 54km of motorway and 4km of dual carriageway between Tuam and Gort today means we now have an Atlantic Corridor from south of Milltown to Patrickswell. The gaping hole between Patrickswell and Blarney will now be clear for all to see, and will become a major issue come election time as the opening of the M17/M18 has been fairly well publicised and yet again Cork gets left in the 1980s.

Leo does seem to be more keen to splash out on infrastructure than Enda. That's a sign of the times. The recession is over, the Troika has gone home, and we're much freer to spend and invest as we see fit. Of course, while Enda was calling the shots he had to deal with a crippling recession and our loss of economic sovereignty, which rendered the M20 essentially impossible to build.
Times have changed. The M17 (built under the last Taoiseach, don't forget) is open, so let's complete the southern half of the Atlantic Corridor. Roll on the M20.

lucernarian · 28-09-2017 7:22am

Aontachtoir wrote: »

TII have had many roads that they did not receive funding to build, many in areas as poorly or more poorly served than the Cork-Limerick corridor. The M20 is projected to be extremely expensive, and you can't pull the trigger on a project like this without being pretty certain that funding will be available. A choice has to be made - send funding to other areas of the country and invest in smaller desperately-needed roads, or sit on the pile for several years of zero investment and wait for it to grow enough to build the M20?
Cork are not victims of a conspiracy.

There are two salient points this doesn't address in my mind.

Why was the existing scheme not carried on to planning permission granting and CPO? That doesn't require 800 million euro.

In the meantime, the M17/M18 was built. This 500 million euro wasn't a strategic intercity route and doesn't really serve Galway City itself (which still needs a lot of urgent road attention). It seems crazy that such an amount of money was available when the Macroom bypass and Dunkettle and perhaps the N/M28 also could have been done in a PPP of that value. I'm not from Cork but I could start understanding why they'd feel aggrieved by now.

AugustusMinimus · 28-09-2017 8:08am

lucernarian wrote: »

Aontachtoir wrote: »

TII have had many roads that they did not receive funding to build, many in areas as poorly or more poorly served than the Cork-Limerick corridor. The M20 is projected to be extremely expensive, and you can't pull the trigger on a project like this without being pretty certain that funding will be available. A choice has to be made - send funding to other areas of the country and invest in smaller desperately-needed roads, or sit on the pile for several years of zero investment and wait for it to grow enough to build the M20?
Cork are not victims of a conspiracy.

There are two salient points this doesn't address in my mind.

Why was the existing scheme not carried on to planning permission granting and CPO? That doesn't require 800 million euro.

In the meantime, the M17/M18 was built. This 500 million euro wasn't a strategic intercity route and doesn't really serve Galway City itself (which still needs a lot of urgent road attention). It seems crazy that such an amount of money was available when the Macroom bypass and Dunkettle and perhaps the N/M28 also could have been done in a PPP of that value. I'm not from Cork but I could start understanding why they'd feel aggrieved by now.

There’s questions and points to note.

1. Why was planning cancelled and now having to start all over again.
2. What is the delay in the Dunkettle scheme. This should have been prioritised over basically every scheme except M7 widening.
3. M28 is only being done due to European funding IMO
4. We are getting a macroom bypass but the Ovens to Macroom section is canned.
5. No word on the NRR
6. The N25 east of Midleton is a disgrace and nothing is being done to advance any scheme here.

It’s bloody infuriating. All the time, Kenny and Noonan were having a great laugh at Corks expense. Coveney is a minister and he’s bloody useless for the city. If there was a sod turning for the M20 I still wouldn’t believe it’s going ahead.

marno21 · 28-09-2017 9:23am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

There’s questions and points to note.

1. Why was planning cancelled and now having to start all over again.
2. What is the delay in the Dunkettle scheme. This should have been prioritised over basically every scheme except M7 widening.
3. M28 is only being done due to European funding IMO
4. We are getting a macroom bypass but the Ovens to Macroom section is canned.
5. No word on the NRR
6. The N25 east of Midleton is a disgrace and nothing is being done to advance any scheme here.

It’s bloody infuriating. All the time, Kenny and Noonan were having a great laugh at Corks expense. Coveney is a minister and he’s bloody useless for the city. If there was a sod turning for the M20 I still wouldn’t believe it’s going ahead.

1. The requirements for project appraisal for schemes of this size have changed and require a new scheme to be designed with current traffic figures in mind
2. No funding. Been ready to go since 2015. At tender stage now.
3. Correct, would be in the suspended pile otherwise
4. As you say, on the suspended pile. Will require a total restart after being in planning for 9 years.
5. TII are protecting the corridor but still suspended
6. No movement. 2 ridiculous bottlenecks getting no treatment whatsoever

Buttimer was out yesterday saying how great motorways are for the economy and safety with the M17 opening. Meanwhile he is objecting to the M28. This is the level we are operating at here in Cork

Reputable Rog · 28-09-2017 9:25am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

There’s questions and points to note.

1. Why was planning cancelled and now having to start all over again.
2. What is the delay in the Dunkettle scheme. This should have been prioritised over basically every scheme except M7 widening.
3. M28 is only being done due to European funding IMO [European Insistence]
4. We are getting a macroom bypass but the Ovens to Macroom section is canned.
5. No word on the NRR
6. The N25 east of Midleton is a disgrace and nothing is being done to advance any scheme here.

It’s bloody infuriating. All the time, Kenny and Noonan were having a great laugh at Corks expense. Coveney is a minister and he’s bloody useless for the city. If there was a sod turning for the M20 I still wouldn’t believe it’s going ahead.

Corrected that for you.

AugustusMinimus · 28-09-2017 11:05am

Talks of a Limerick - Clare - Galway axis in the M18/17 thread as a counter balance to Dublin.

I have no doubt that the downturn in public finances have a Mayo Taoiseach and a Limerick Finance Minister the perfect opportunity to under invest in Cork whole at the same time, advancing the 2 most costly schemes in the state, both in the west.

marno21 · 28-09-2017 11:11am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Talks of a Limerick - Clare - Galway axis in the M18/17 thread as a counter balance to Dublin.

I have no doubt that the downturn in public finances have a Mayo Taoiseach and a Limerick Finance Minister the perfect opportunity to under invest in Cork whole at the same time, advancing the 2 most costly schemes in the state, both in the west.

Cork seem to be taking the bull by the horns and developing new areas of the city centr - they're not waiting around for empty infrastructure promises like Sean Canney waiting for his Intel campus at Annagh Hill beside the M17 or Citibank's new 6 storey EMEA HQ beside Kiltimagh railway station

Reputable Rog · 28-09-2017 11:18am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Talks of a Limerick - Clare - Galway axis in the M18/17 thread as a counter balance to Dublin.

I have no doubt that the downturn in public finances have a Mayo Taoiseach and a Limerick Finance Minister the perfect opportunity to under invest in Cork whole at the same time, advancing the 2 most costly schemes in the state, both in the west.

His niece is the City Manager/CE, I would have thought he would have looked after her.

fonzy951 · 28-09-2017 11:19am

Why is the NRR east still canned, when the M20 is built this road is vital. NRR is far more necessary in economic terms and with regards to traffic levels than the New Ross bypass or M17/M18 motorway. Who's decision was it to push these projects ahead of the M20/NRR, scandalous.

fonzy951 · 28-09-2017 11:54am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Talks of a Limerick - Clare - Galway axis in the M18/17 thread as a counter balance to Dublin.

I have no doubt that the downturn in public finances have a Mayo Taoiseach and a Limerick Finance Minister the perfect opportunity to under invest in Cork whole at the same time, advancing the 2 most costly schemes in the state, both in the west.

I'm sure the M18/17 will really sway it for investors, lol

Aontachtoir · 28-09-2017 12:19pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Talks of a Limerick - Clare - Galway axis in the M18/17 thread as a counter balance to Dublin.

I have no doubt that the downturn in public finances have a Mayo Taoiseach and a Limerick Finance Minister the perfect opportunity to under invest in Cork whole at the same time, advancing the 2 most costly schemes in the state, both in the west.

Be careful when you turn your head, mate, that chip on your shoulder is big enough to take your eye out.
Looking forward to getting all the road upgrades in Cork approved by that Mayo Taoiseach and Limerick Minister for Finance. Especially looking forward to the M20 approved by that Dublin Taoiseach.

marno21 · 28-09-2017 12:44pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Be careful when you turn your head, mate, that chip on your shoulder is big enough to take your eye out.
Looking forward to getting all the road upgrades in Cork approved by that Mayo Taoiseach and Limerick Minister for Finance. Especially looking forward to the M20 approved by that Dublin Taoiseach.

Plans and talk are great - Enda repeatedly told Cork who had to repeatedly watch people get killed on the N20 not to be greedy because they got their motorway to Cork. Meanwhile N5/M17/M18 all got built even though non greedy Galwegians got their M6 to Dublin.

Mayo Taoiseach and Limerick Minister for Finance published a fairly unambiguous Capital Investment Plan and built a sum total of 3.5km of national secondary road in Donegal out of it while they were in charge, in 2 years out of 6 of said Capital investment Plan. Don't know how Cork residents who are watching the city grind to a halt are to be happy with that

You also have a Minster for Transport who is happy to watch people die on the roads as long as he gets his local Garda station reopened meanwhile he pontificates about speeding and speeding.

Is it any wonder we have had so many barren years ? Perhaps Leo will change some of this but it will take time given all the years of neglect and as much as Leo is trying to talk infrastructure but this will go down like a lead balloon with the Sinn Fein and the other lefties who have no interest in any form of infrastructure.

Water John · 28-09-2017 12:47pm

I have no problem with a Cork-Lim-Galway axis to counterbalance Dublin.
It would be good for all.

Of course I am not niave and a strong politician in Govn't does sway things.

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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