Ten Years After Decriminalization, Drug Abuse Down by Half in Portugal

Auvers · 15-02-2012 12:10pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Awesome. In which case, you'll have no problem if I continue my end of day routine of murder and theft. After all, "I don't think any among you has the right to tell another person what they can or can't do".

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

hold on a sec smoking a joint of your own homegrown which only effects you and doesn't interfere with anybody's else's life

where as murder and robbery is definitely effecting someone

so enough with the silly roll eyes and use of the word Awesome

PogMoThoin · 15-02-2012 12:47pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Awesome. In which case, you'll have no problem if I continue my end of day routine of murder and theft. After all, "I don't think any among you has the right to tell another person what they can or can't do".

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Wow, just Wow :eek:

Lord TSC · 15-02-2012 12:48pm

I know it's a case of being extreme examples, but since when has "I'll do what I like" formed the basis of a decent argument?

If anything, it's the very definition of a losing argument; "I can't win, but I don't care what you think, I'll do it anyway".

gosuckonalemon · 15-02-2012 12:52pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Awesome. In which case, you'll have no problem if I continue my end of day routine of murder and theft. After all, "I don't think any among you has the right to tell another person what they can or can't do".

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Troll or retarded? I'm still trying to figure this out but will go for a bit of both.

PogMoThoin · 15-02-2012 12:53pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I know it's a case of being extreme examples, but since when has "I'll do what I like" formed the basis of a decent argument?

If anything, it's the very definition of a losing argument; "I can't win, but I don't care what you think, I'll do it anyway".

If it's not harming anybody else what harm is it doing? My brother is slightly disabled after an accident 14 years ago, he smokes 1 joint every evening to chill. The alternative for him is the 6 Difene the doctor perscribes. Is he harming you?

He should be allowed grow a plant for consumption in his own house

gosuckonalemon · 15-02-2012 12:54pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I know it's a case of being extreme examples, but since when has "I'll do what I like" formed the basis of a decent argument?

If anything, it's the very definition of a losing argument; "I can't win, but I don't care what you think, I'll do it anyway".

You compared smoking a joint with murder, I think it's time you bowed out and went to school or at least some special needs centre for the day.

Seachmall · 15-02-2012 1:07pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I know it's a case of being extreme examples, but since when has "I'll do what I like" formed the basis of a decent argument?

If anything, it's the very definition of a losing argument; "I can't win, but I don't care what you think, I'll do it anyway".

I think the "as long as it doesn't affect anyone else" is typically implied when that argument is brought up in these discussions.

You're not technically wrong in your point but it's a bit absurd to assume that his argument was comparable to arguing that murder is fine.

Dyr · 15-02-2012 1:07pm

What about the drug barons, lads?

What about the garda's, lads?

This is an industry we're talking about here

No drug wars, no big drug seizures, shoplifting, mugging and burlaries all dropping drastically, Armed scumbags having to find new sources of revenue. No more Paul Williams best sellers.

All for what, just to make this country a better place to live in? I mean we all want that but surely not at any cost :mad:

lugha · 15-02-2012 1:16pm

PogMoThoin wrote: »

If it's not harming anybody else what harm is it doing?

If it were legal you could make that argument. But it isn't and the harm is that it supports an illegal and at times pretty ruthless illegal industry.

At best, that means our valuable tax euro are being spent, largely fruitlessly IMO, combating this . At worst, one of us could be unlucky and get caught in one of their regular shoot outs.

The only credible argument is for legalisation, not decriminalisation.

Tomk1 · 15-02-2012 1:24pm

Einhard wrote: »

That may be because of where you are. Would heroin be as easily available in the rural Laois as it is in parts of Dublin?

google laois+heroin
Survey: Sharp rise in heroin use in midlands
By Cormac O’Keeffe
Monday, May 24, 2010
www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfcwauojgbql/rss2/

Midland Regional Drugs Task Force
www.mrdtf.ie/

Heroin needle demand doubles in Portlaoise
Published: 20 August 2011
www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/local/heroin_needle_demand_doubles_in_portlaoise_1_2979902

WILD IN THE COUNTRY; RURAL IRISH GIRLS ARE CHOOSING HEROIN FOR THEIR TEENAGE KICKS.
''Byline: STEWART MacLEAN

GIRLS in rural Ireland as young as 15 are becoming heroin addicts, it was revealed yesterday.

The shock findings were announced after a study into the nation's drug problem showed more youngsters than ever are turning to hard substances in country areas.''
www.thefreelibrary.com/WILD+IN+THE+COUNTRY%3B+RURAL+IRISH+GIRLS+ARE+CHOOSING+HEROIN+FOR+THEIR...-a0127180794

I won't list all the results, as that's google's job.

If legalisation or criminalisation lead to reduction in drug use, or even was beneficial to society, I'd be behind it 100%. I simply don't think that that's necessarily the case.

I'll just reply to that with a simular dismissive reply from you to me.
Just because you think that doesn't make it so.

Mr. Presentable · 15-02-2012 1:30pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

A very, very tiny percentage.

.

Re % of illegal or smuggled cigarettes. Recent reports say 25% are duty unpaid. Hardly tiny

Wattle · 15-02-2012 1:44pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I always look at the arguement of "Other countries have done it" and think "True, but Ireland isn't other countries."

We have a culture of abusing alcohol as it is, whereby we don't know how to "drink responsibily"; everything is about getting as plastered as possible. Alcohol as it is controls most of Irish society. We are a society of abuse.

So why should I think the same isn't going to happen with drugs? Why should I believe Ireland wouldn't simply follow the same path of abuse with drugs as well, and let them engulf our society? I get it worked in portugal, but they don't have the same fixation on abusing mind-altering substances as we do....

We're Irish. We can't handle it. Sure look at the way we drink :rolleyes:

Triangla · 15-02-2012 1:53pm

Can't see the harm in trying out a programme like that.

Drug related crime is related to getting money to buy the stuff the addict is addicted to.

Looks like a win-win really.

Will I decide to try heroin if it's legal - hell no! If it could reduce the amount of addicts and associated crime out there then as a society we would be ignorant not to try it out.

AeoNGriM · 15-02-2012 2:07pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I know it's a case of being extreme examples, but since when has "I'll do what I like" formed the basis of a decent argument?

If anything, it's the very definition of a losing argument; "I can't win, but I don't care what you think, I'll do it anyway".

The point being, "I'll do what I like" means I'm not going to engage in a debate with you as I don't give a fiddlers what you think, thus there is no debate for you to engage in. If there's no debate for you to engage in, then there's no chance of you making a valid point which might alter my position. Thus, there is nothing for you to win, or for me to lose

Therefore, it's not an argument. For it to be an argument, I would have to value what you think. Which I don't as evidenced by the statement 'I'll do what I like'.

Would have thought this was fairly obvious.....:rolleyes:

ScumLord · 15-02-2012 2:16pm

Father Damo wrote: »

Take cannabis. From what I have heard back home hash is now rare as its all weed. I love hash. I hate weed.

You can still get hash, pretty decent hash too.

The gangs switched to delaing weed because it cuts out the risk of importing hash through the ports.

I'm off the opinion weed didn't become popular in Ireland until the Polish came here. They wouldn't smoke the crap we had here. It's not until fairly recently that Irish weed came on the scene, a big proportion of weed in Ireland is import which is quite clearly much easier to do that grow it yourself. Right now Irish weed is in short supply because the season is out, all that I'm seeing around is imported muck that's sprayed.

Therefore if I was at home government prohibition would have killed off my usage of cannabis, because the only product now available is overpriced and crap.

I only smoke good quality stuff now, if it's not around I don't bother smoking anything.

Bottom line- the Irish government does not want me to use cannabis or cocaine. Enforcement of said laws means that if I were at home I would seldom if ever use cannabis or cocaine, because the enforcement of the law has led to both products being sold at poor quality.

That's nonsense the majority of Irish people will take what ever's available, that's why the quality is so bad in Ireland because the crims know we'll take whatever muck they happen to have around, they don't need to put any effort into quality.

Lord TSC · 15-02-2012 2:26pm

Wow, the murder point didn't go down well.

I'll apologise then, cause in my bid to make a point, I seemed to go overboard a tad.

PogMoThoin wrote: »

If it's not harming anybody else what harm is it doing? My brother is slightly disabled after an accident 14 years ago, he smokes 1 joint every evening to chill. The alternative for him is the 6 Difene the doctor perscribes. Is he harming you?

He should be allowed grow a plant for consumption in his own house

If we're talking about for medical purposes, I've got no problems.

But let's face it; a lot of the time, the people who are fighting for the legilisation or decriminalisation are not people with family members seeking the medical benefits of certain drugs. There's a lot who only want to benefit from the recreational aspect of the drugs, and that's who I have a problem with. In your example, yes, there should be a facilitation of something which can ease your brother's suffering, but it should be with doctor's consent and with a special permit then.

I'd have no problem with you wanting your brother to have permission to use the drug. It's people who want to abuse it for recreational purposes I'd have a problem with.

Seachmall · 15-02-2012 2:31pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's people who want to abuse it for recreational purposes I'd have a problem with.

Why do you have a problem with that?

Auvers · 15-02-2012 2:33pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

There's a lot who only want to benefit from the recreational aspect of the drugs, and that's who I have a problem with.

that's me,

why do you have a problem with me?

I work and pay taxes but I prefer a smoke in the evening as opposed to a glass of wine, so where's the problem? how is this interfering with your choices in life?

AeoNGriM · 15-02-2012 2:33pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Wow, the murder point didn't go down well. I'll apologise then, cause in my bid to make a point, I seemed to go overboard a tad.

If we're talking about for medical purposes, I've got no problems.

But let's face it; a lot of the time, the people who are fighting for the legilisation or decriminalisation are not people with family members seeking the medical benefits of certain drugs. There's a lot who only want to benefit from the recreational aspect of the drugs, and that's who I have a problem with. In your example, yes, there should be a facilitation of something which can ease your brother's suffering, but it should be with doctor's consent and with a special permit then.

I'd have no problem with you wanting your brother to have permission to use the drug. It's people who want to abuse it for recreational purposes I'd have a problem with.

Why the distinction - moral, legal or otherwise between a medicinal user with arthritis or back pain and a recreational user who just wants to get high, giggle a bit and eat a little too much chocolate? I'm curious about this acceptable form of illegal drug comsumption vs the unnaceptable form and what the difference is to some people.

Dyr · 15-02-2012 2:35pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's people who want to abuse it for recreational purposes I'd have a problem with.

Why? Are drugs sacred or something?

Seachmall · 15-02-2012 2:40pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's people who want to abuse it for recreational purposes I'd have a problem with.

Also, as evidenced in the above examples decriminalisation in conjunction with appropriate education and rehab facilities results in a reduction of recreational users.

So if you maintain you don't want people using for recreational purposes your position on decriminalisation is counter-intuitive.

Lord TSC · 15-02-2012 2:56pm

One at a time, guys, no need to gang up :P

Seachmall wrote: »

Why do you have a problem with that?

Same reason I have with drink, and that I referred to earlier in this thread.

We are a nation of abusers. Our entire society revolves around the abuse of alcohol to the determent of everything else. Our social lives revolve around working to the weekend where we can then go and get plastered, lose our heads and wake up Monday morning with no memory of the weekend before. Our entire society revolves around not just the acceptance but the demand that everyone should take a mind-altering substance on a regular basis; as a non-drinker, it becomes very easy to feel cut off from society because you don't drink. Ireland has a drink problem; of course, there'll be people who will (and already have) deny this, which is of course a major problem with an individual who is an alcoholic and is a major stumbling block in this debate.

Looking at Ireland's drink problem then, I have no reason to believe that drugs could be used responsibly in this country. We don't use alcohol responsibly, so why should I think we could use other drugs? People offer examples of other countries where programs have worked, but Ireland isn't other countries.
For me, at the very least in the small social circle that is my town, but imo on a larger national scale as well, drink has caused so much pain and suffering and has lead to the destruction of so many lives. I fear if "worse" drugs were put out on the market and made easily available to the majority (as opposed to now where it's only available to those determined enough to find them), it would cause further abuse problems in this country and do even more damage.

Spacedog · 15-02-2012 2:56pm

TheZohan wrote: »

Over the past few weeks, I've learned to look past drug users's raving ruses. I've learned to look past some of the unsavory things drug users has said. I've even learned to look past its attempts to unleash carnage and barbarity. But I cannot stay silent about drug users's incomprehensible and unforgivable audacity regarding a specific event that recently occurred. Here's the story: Drug users preys on the rebellious and disenfranchised, tricking them into joining its Praetorian Guard. Their first assignment usually involves destroying our culture, our institutions, and our way of life. The lesson to draw from this is that drug users has been teaching young children to parrot such Pecksniffian sentences as, "Drug users possesses infinite wisdom." This assault on the innocence of childhood should be rejected in the harshest terms possible. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that drug users has, on a number of occasions, expressed a desire to replicate the most xenophobic structures of contemporary life. On all of these occasions I submitted to the advice of my friends, who assured me that it makes a living out of mercantalism. I call this tactic of its "entrepreneurial mercantalism". Drug users and its assistants have unmistakably raised entrepreneurial mercantalism to a fine art by using it to turn our country into a vicious, censorious cesspool overrun with scum, disease, and crime.

It would be great if all of us could serve on the side of Truth. In the end, however, money talks and you-know-what walks. Perhaps that truism also explains why drug users views ultraism as a succedaneous religion that authorizes it to poison the relationship between teacher and student. It follows from this that exclusionism has served as the justification for the butchering, torture, and enslavement of more people than any other "ism". That's why it's drug users's favorite; it makes it easy for it to pooh-pooh the concerns of others. I'll talk about that another time. I have other, more important, things to discuss now. For starters, if drug users believes that its tactics are Right with a capital R, then it's obvious why it thinks that superstition is no less credible than proven scientific principles.

Regardless of what philanthropic enthusiasts or visionary dreamers may say about corporate perfectibility, drug users has a history of weaving its unreasonable traits, illaudable roorbacks, and sex-crazed warnings into a rich tapestry that is sure to rule with an iron fist. That's too big of a subject to get into here so let me instead discuss how drug users uses the word "orbiculatoelliptical" to justify defacing property with racially and sexually derogatory epithets and offensive symbols. In doing so, it is reversing the meaning of that word as a means of disguising the fact that the main dissensus between me and drug users is that I assert that drug users is unable to deal with a world populated by human beings. It, on the other hand, contends that character development is not a matter of "strength through adversity" but rather, "entitlement through victimization". I challenge all of the cantankerous, Bourbonism-prone nithings out there to consider this: Drug users is on some sort of thesaurus-fueled rampage. Every sentence it writes is filled with needlessly long words like "interchangeableness" and "pseudolamellibranchiate". Either drug users is deliberately trying to confuse us or else it's secretly scheming to stifle dissent. Let me end this letter by challenging my readers to provide an atmosphere of mutual respect, free from obscurantism, phallocentrism, and all other forms of prejudice and intolerance. Are you with me, or with the forces of tuchungism and oppression?

Wrote that yourself eh?
Let me Google That For You...

www.google.ie/#q="Over+the+past+few+weeks%2C+I've+learned+to+look+past"

Auvers · 15-02-2012 3:03pm

Spacedog wrote: »

Wrote that yourself eh?

look like a fourteen year old wrote it, while trying to impress with the overuse of a thesaurus

Gbear · 15-02-2012 3:05pm

People, by and large, have a problem in assessing any scientific argument. There is very little effort in the education system to promote scientific thought. In fact there's almost a concerted effort to counter critical thinking.

This becomes obvious in a debate that should be about the facts and figures about how the negative effects of drugs have been reduced in Portugal and the Netherlands but the debate never moves past emotive arguments that are utterly irrelevant.

I don't care if somebody has a problem with drugs being legalised, decriminalised or otherwise - they don't have to take them if they don't want to.

What we do know is that most current policies aimed at denying drugs to people have not worked.
-It has lead to the creation of a criminal class, particularly in America where mandatory minimum sentencing has completely screwed over the poor and the black and hispanic communities in particular.
-It's destroying countries like Colombia and is damaging efforts to stabalise Afghanistan, where Al Qaeda are making money from running the drug business.
-It is used as a source of income for scumbags.
-It is failing utterly to impact drug use.
-The cost is terrible, both monetarily and on a human level.

Even ignoring the concept of personal freedom, which I think should be enough on it's own to justify the complete legalisation of ALL drugs or doing anything that doesn't directly affect the rights of other people, there are very clear practical reasons why, if we are to improve society as a whole, we must take incremental steps to make drugs more available and less of a taboo.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's people who want to abuse it for recreational purposes I'd have a problem with.

Without wanting to be too presumptuous about you personally TSC, I think there's a general idea that pleasure is bad that's pervasive in Irish society.
There's also the sense that people should keep an eye on one another and make sure they're not doing anything "unsavoury".

It stems, of course, from the Catholic church's influence on our history. It's slowly dissipating and I think that given how opinions have already moved forward in the past 50 years towards a more liberal and free society, it's impossible that we won't shake off the last vestiges of tyranny of the moral majority in the coming decades.

Dyr · 15-02-2012 3:07pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

One at a time, guys, no need to gang up :P

Same reason I have with drink, and that I referred to earlier in this thread.

We are a nation of abusers. Our entire society revolves around the abuse of alcohol to the determent of everything else. Our social lives revolve around working to the weekend where we can then go and get plastered, lose our heads and wake up Monday morning with no memory of the weekend before. Our entire society revolves around not just the acceptance but the demand that everyone should take a mind-altering substance on a regular basis; as a non-drinker, it becomes very easy to feel cut off from society because you don't drink. Ireland has a drink problem; of course, there'll be people who will (and already have) deny this, which is of course a major problem with an individual who is an alcoholic and is a major stumbling block in this debate.

Looking at Ireland's drink problem then, I have no reason to believe that drugs could be used responsibly in this country. We don't use alcohol responsibly, so why should I think we could use other drugs? People offer examples of other countries where programs have worked, but Ireland isn't other countries.
For me, at the very least in the small social circle that is my town, but imo on a larger national scale as well, drink has caused so much pain and suffering and has lead to the destruction of so many lives. I fear if "worse" drugs were put out on the market and made easily available to the majority (as opposed to now where it's only available to those determined enough to find them), it would cause further abuse problems in this country and do even more damage.

How about our addiction to self flagellation? How will we ever tackle that?

ScumLord · 15-02-2012 3:12pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Same reason I have with drink, and that I referred to earlier in this thread.

We are a nation of abusers. Our entire society revolves around the abuse of alcohol to the determent of everything else.

Looking at Ireland's drink problem then, I have no reason to believe that drugs could be used responsibly in this country. .

I despise this argument. Basically the Irish can't do the right and logical thing because we're all idiots. It's used so often around so many issues and is just an excuse for Ireland to languish in our own misery. It's nonsense, you want everything to continue as it is expecting something to magically change and it won't happen.

I don't believe Ireland has an alcohol abuse problem as much any more. I don't know about everybody else but since hitting 30 I can't drink like I used to, binge drinking/drug use is something those awful youths do but they all grow out of it, you simply can't keep going like that. It's also not something restricted to Ireland it's a youth problem and one that will never ever go away.

There are problems with modern society that have nothing to do with drugs. Drug abuse is jut a side effect of those problems, trying to fix those side effects won't do anything to the problem.

Seachmall · 15-02-2012 3:18pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Same reason I have with drink, and that I referred to earlier in this thread.

We are a nation of abusers. Our entire society revolves around the abuse of alcohol to the determent of everything else. Our social lives revolve around working to the weekend where we can then go and get plastered, lose our heads and wake up Monday morning with no memory of the weekend before. Our entire society revolves around not just the acceptance but the demand that everyone should take a mind-altering substance on a regular basis; as a non-drinker, it becomes very easy to feel cut off from society because you don't drink. Ireland has a drink problem; of course, there'll be people who will (and already have) deny this, which is of course a major problem with an individual who is an alcoholic and is a major stumbling block in this debate.

Looking at Ireland's drink problem then, I have no reason to believe that drugs could be used responsibly in this country. We don't use alcohol responsibly, so why should I think we could use other drugs? People offer examples of other countries where programs have worked, but Ireland isn't other countries.
For me, at the very least in the small social circle that is my town, but imo on a larger national scale as well, drink has caused so much pain and suffering and has lead to the destruction of so many lives. I fear if "worse" drugs were put out on the market and made easily available to the majority (as opposed to now where it's only available to those determined enough to find them), it would cause further abuse problems in this country and do even more damage.

While I appreciate that that's your opinion unless there is supporting evidence that shows Ireland is somehow prone to overdoing it on drugs then that's not a valid argument nor reason to believe what you believe.

Portugal rated just higher than us on the "Drunkest Country" list yet the OP demonstrates decriminalisation helped to reduce the number of drug users there. So alcohol intake clearly isn't a justifiable reason as to why we'd overdo it if drugs were legalised.

The fact is Ireland is just like any other country. We're not special and and the above examples are fully applicable.

If you believe otherwise you'll have to provide evidence.

mikom · 15-02-2012 3:20pm

Einhard wrote: »

The use of drugs of any kind doesn't stayed limited to the individual; the effects are felt across society, and those societal impacts have to be taken into account in such a debate.

Research done already in the UK.

The graph....... http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49735000/gif/_49735645_drugs_comparisons_464gr.gif

Alcohol is more harmful than heroin or crack when the overall dangers to the individual and society are considered, according to a study in the Lancet.
The report is co-authored by Professor David Nutt, the former government chief drugs adviser who was sacked in 2009.
It ranked 20 drugs on 16 measures of harm to users and to wider society.
Heroin, crack and crystal meth were deemed worst for individuals, with alcohol, heroin and crack cocaine worst for society, and alcohol worst overall.

The study by the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs also said tobacco and cocaine were judged to be equally harmful, while ecstasy and LSD were among the least damaging.

Members of the group, joined by two other experts, scored each drug for harms including mental and physical damage, addiction, crime and costs to the economy and communities.

The study involved 16 criteria, including a drug's affects on users' physical and mental health, social harms including crime, "family adversities" and environmental damage, economic costs and "international damage".

"Our findings lend support to previous work in the UK and the Netherlands, confirming that the present drug classification systems have little relation to the evidence of harm," the paper says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11660210

Cannabis fairing pretty well there.......... but still the prohibition continues.

mikom · 15-02-2012 3:23pm

Seachmall wrote: »

The fact is Ireland is just like any other country. We're not special and and the above examples are fully comparable.

As evidenced by the bubble burst of the post Celtic tiger years.

We were under the impression "shur we are different"...... "the bubble won't burst cos we are Irish".

Ten Years After Decriminalization, Drug Abuse Down by Half in Portugal

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