possible link central heating systems and soaring disease rates

Dtp79 · 09-03-2013 2:43pm

tonyroc wrote: »

the plauge maybe pushing it all right but i never mentioned leprosy.Just have a look at the link again on diseases please. leptospirosis is not leprosy.

If i can get the plumbers here to admit and support my theory that public water main might be at risk from back flow .I was then going to ask admins or mods to link a revised version of this tread to science research Forum and let them figure out what could be in heating systems fluids.The scientific world are not aware of these cross connections of the two systems so tests will never be carried out.If main pressure drops even for a minute its possible for up to 60 gallons to back flow but when the mains pressure comes back on there will be no evidence of the source left .So if the scientific know this route of contamination is possible they may well find the source.Because at the moment they are in the dark.

Shur put up some box we can tick or vote in and see how many will put their names forward. Ill put my name on it

tonyroc · 09-03-2013 2:52pm

Dtp79 wrote: »

Shur put up some box we can tick or vote in and see how many will put their names forward. Ill put my name on it

thanks for that not sure how to put up box only new to boards if anyone can help it would be great

Dtp79 · 09-03-2013 3:15pm

tonyroc wrote: »

thanks for that not sure how to put up box only new to boards if anyone can help it would be great

Not sure myself. Contact boards team

tonyroc · 09-03-2013 3:22pm

i just sent them a message and thanks for your support

Joey the lips · 10-03-2013 8:55am

There is really no way i can help with this and putting up with a poll is done by the user at the start of the thread.

tonyroc · 10-03-2013 11:35am

COMPLACENCY CAN LEAD TO DISASTER
The reason USA so OTT on back flow issue mainly because of sue culture
So i hope all the plumbers who have looked at this thread have their insurance up to date because they can
no longer use as a legal defence their lack of knowledge on the possibility of public water main getting contaminated
because of the use of inadequate valves .refer. to Board.ie rules on their legal obligations
The Irish public are being let down by the Government because of the lack of proper regulations so it is about time that the plumbers of Ireland find a pair and stand up for the Nation on this matter .Who do you think will get the blame if something happens.YOU THE PLUMBERS. So its up to you now to do something about it ,or wait in the vain hope that nothing will happen because it is your signature that is on the cert .Don't forget it might take years for this to be exposed.
The time to act is now, not when the horse has bolted .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Any person with a basic plumbing knowledge could by accident or INTENT infect or contaminate the public water main from the comfort of their own kitchen .DO YOU THINK THIS IS RIGHT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#~~~~~
The Government of Ireland has failed in its obligation to protect the health and welfare of its citizens
this is not the first time that this has happened but this time it can be fixed.
The power is now in your hands

W.A.R.

Trim
Co. Meath

Citizen of Ireland
If you agree press the thank you button

Dtp79 · 10-03-2013 11:51am

tonyroc wrote: »

COMPLACENCY CAN LEAD TO DISASTER
The reason USA so OTT on back flow issue mainly because of sue culture
So i hope all the plumbers who have looked at this thread have their insurance up to date because they can
no longer use as a legal defence their lack of knowledge on the possibility of public water main getting contaminated
because of the use of inadequate valves .refer. to Board.ie rules on their legal obligations
The Irish public are being let down by the Government because of the lack of proper regulations so it is about time that the plumbers of Ireland find a pair and stand up for the Nation on this matter .Who do you think will get the blame if something happens.YOU THE PLUMBERS. So its up to you now to do something about it ,or wait in the vain hope that nothing will happen because it is your signature that is on the cert .Don't forget it might take years for this to be exposed.
The time to act is now, not when the horse has bolted .

The Government of Ireland has failed in its obligation to protect the health and welfare of its citizens
this is not the first time that this has happened but this time it can be fixed.
The power is now in your hands

Tony
Citizen of Ireland
If you agree press the thank you button

Just start a new thread and use a poll like joey said

tonyroc · 10-03-2013 12:15pm

I have used report button and asked Mods to move it to start new thread with vote option or poll option can you do same please

shane0007 · 10-03-2013 12:15pm

tonyroc wrote: »

COMPLACENCY CAN LEAD TO DISASTER
The reason USA so OTT on back flow issue mainly because of sue culture
So i hope all the plumbers who have looked at this thread have their insurance up to date because they can
no longer use as a legal defence their lack of knowledge on the possibility of public water main getting contaminated
because of the use of inadequate valves .refer. to Board.ie rules on their legal obligations
The Irish public are being let down by the Government because of the lack of proper regulations so it is about time that the plumbers of Ireland find a pair and stand up for the Nation on this matter .Who do you think will get the blame if something happens.YOU THE PLUMBERS. So its up to you now to do something about it ,or wait in the vain hope that nothing will happen because it is your signature that is on the cert .Don't forget it might take years for this to be exposed.
The time to act is now, not when the horse has bolted .

The Government of Ireland has failed in its obligation to protect the health and welfare of its citizens
this is not the first time that this has happened but this time it can be fixed.
The power is now in your hands

Tony
Citizen of Ireland
If you agree press the thank you button

I agree there is a problem with auto fill valves (pressure reducing valves) used on sealed systems to connect to mains water, however, I disagree with the way you are going about highlighting it, telling plumbers that they are "as guilty as the murderers installing them". I disagree with the enormous exaggerations that you making. Do we set up "polls" on every issue that we find dangerous? Believe me, there are far more dangerous issues, such as in fossil fuel burning installations, that ARE actually life threatening than the off-chance of catching a tummy bug from mains water.

So I for one will not be hitting your Thanks Button to support you. IMHO, your obsession is bordering on medication time!

tonyroc · 10-03-2013 1:20pm

shane0007 wrote: »

I agree there is a problem with auto fill valves (pressure reducing valves) used on sealed systems to connect to mains water, however, I disagree with the way you are going about highlighting it, telling plumbers that they are "as guilty as the murderers installing them". I disagree with the enormous exaggerations that you making. Do we set up "polls" on every issue that we find dangerous? Believe me, there are far more dangerous issues, such as in fossil fuel burning installations, that ARE actually life threatening than the off-chance of catching a tummy bug from mains water.

So I for one will not be hitting your Thanks Button to support you. IMHO, your obsession is bordering on medication time!

I admit i have made mistakes in my attempt to highlight this issue but it should not have been left up to me in the first place .Because of the lack of regulations One nut with a basic plumbing knowledge can infect or contaminate public water main from the comfort of their own kitchen .do you think this is right?

10-03-2013 3:15pm

tonyroc wrote: »

I admit i have made mistakes in my attempt to highlight this issue but do not let that cloud main issue.Because of the lack of regulations One nut with a basic plumbing knowledge can infect or contaminate public water main from the comfort of their own kitchen .do you think this is right

You are right to highlight the issue of cross contamination as prevention is simple if water regs are followed and it's the right thing to do.

You would be wrong in assuming tradesmen working in the industry are unaware of cross contamination or unable to quantifying the risks, the risks involved to homeowners with heating water cross contamination would't result in the outcome you fear in my experience , drinking heating water isn't very nice but it's not likely to kill you.

I used to work on a lot primatic cylinders so brown water baths were common place but no deaths thankfully.

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/9241546301_chap7.pdf

DoneDL · 10-03-2013 3:21pm

Every council in the country has bye-laws protecting water supplies, this is part of the regs for Dublin CoCo,

PART 3 GENERAL CONDITIONS RELATING TO THE SUPPLY OF WATER.

3.1 Conditions applicable to all premises (Domestic and Non-Domestic):
3.1.1 The customer shall ensure that the water distribution system in his/her premises meets the requirements of these Bye-Laws and is maintained so as to protect public health, prevent leakage and conserve water.
3.1.2 In relation to the provision of a water supply to a domestic or non-domestic premises, every water fitting shall be of an appropriate quality and standard, be suitable for the circumstances in which it is in use and be in conformity with an appropriate Irish Standard (I.S.), a British Standard (B.S.) or an equivalent standard of a Member State of the European Economic Area (EEA), a harmonised European Standard (EN) or a European Technical Approval (ETA).
3.1.3 Materials or substances which cause or are likely to cause contamination of water shall not be used in the construction or installation of any apparatus, pipe or water fitting which receives or conveys potable water.
3.1.4 All pipes which supply or may supply potable water shall be flushed to remove debris including excess flux that may have collected in the pipes during installation, renewal or repair. After testing and flushing installations shall be disinfected in accordance with the requirements of the Water Division.
3.1.5 All water systems shall contain an adequate device or devices to prevent the occurrence of backflow.

DGOBS · 10-03-2013 5:54pm

I think you notion that the 'scientific world' are unaware is stuff of pure posturing

Our county council Enviromental health officers constantly sample household waters (and randomly call to houses to do so) and have it micobiologically and chemically tested in our state laboratories for ecoli, staff, etc. as is required.
How else do you think 'boil alerts' etc are issued?

Joey the lips · 11-03-2013 1:01am

I cannot reopen this and include a poll sorry. Are you related to a chap called heinbloed in any ? It's a query that came to mind.

tonyroc · 11-03-2013 10:41am

So far not one poster that's 100% have shown a concern with heating Fluid mixing with house water or public water main.
I find this amazing and now see the extent of the problem .So most if not all of you know more than US DEPARTMENT ENVIRONMENT or NSAI who regard it as category 3 hazard refer. IS EN 1717 .

tonyroc · 11-03-2013 10:46am

DGOBS wrote: »

I think you notion that the 'scientific world' are unaware is stuff of pure posturing

Our county council Enviromental health officers constantly sample household waters (and randomly call to houses to do so) and have it micobiologically and chemically tested in our state laboratories for ecoli, staff, etc. as is required.
How else do you think 'boil alerts' etc are issued?

i think you will find that local environmental health officer do not have in their remit to test private house water unless paid to do so.
testing only commences when informed by HSE of a out break of sickness

shane0007 · 11-03-2013 10:52am

Everybody form an orderly queue....
It's MEDICATION TIME!!!

kscobie · 11-03-2013 11:22am

I think he is back.............:D

tonyroc · 11-03-2013 11:23am

shane0007 wrote: »

Everybody form an orderly queue....
It's MEDICATION TIME!!!

is that in reference to your customers queueing up at A&E

TPM · 11-03-2013 11:42am

I have been biting my lip(or fingers in this case) and trying to keep away from this thread.

All decent plumbers are aware of possible the health issues related to central heating water entering drinking water, which can happen from various areas including
Faulty automatic fill valves
Faulty NRV on fill loops left turned on
Passing valves on fill loops turned off but still connected
Incorrect pipework.
There is also a possibility of heating water entering the water storage tank in the attic through various sources including
Leaking cylinder coils
incorrectly installed overflows

Without heating water entering the storage tanks there is plenty of risk of health issues related to the water in them due to various things.

I am not sure what type of response you were expecting to this thread, but I thing part of the reason you didnt get a huge out cry of horror is due to the fact that this issue and most plumbing and heating issues are due to poor/incorrect installation, methods and materials.

All plumbers come across this and many other health/safety issues and when we do we tend to take them in our stride, inform the home owner of the issues the related risks and then the possible options and costs to rectify them.
Unfortunately these issues are now far too common and just part of what you come across and you have to deal with them and the affected home owner as best you can

11-03-2013 2:47pm

tonyroc wrote: »

So far not one poster that's 100% have shown a concern with heating Fluid mixing with house water or public water main.
I find this amazing and now see the extent of the problem .So most if not all of you know more than US DEPARTMENT ENVIRONMENT or NSAI who regard it as category 3 hazard refer. IS EN 1717 .

I always find it funny when someone has a eureka moment then tells the world only to find the professionals already know, then sulks

.

I learn things everyday, it would be a long day if i chucked my toys out on every point that differed to mine.

Your only good point is now lost to your silliness, unfortunately.

If you want to be a man of the people start campaigning about unvented cylinders and the lack of regs, at least you might prevent some real damage which happens more often than it should, or the lack of gas regs for commercial installations, or the lack of power flushing on new installs, their are lots of things out there that have a bigger daily impact than cross contamination which good tradesmen work hard to rectify on a daily basis, it's very disingenuous to assume that because I don't agree with you I don't care, I and others have done more than you on the above issues and cross contamination prevention, it's our job.

11-03-2013 8:11pm

tonyroc wrote: »

I need your help please .
Having a chat on plumbing forum and all of the posters 100% believe that if the fluid in a domestic heating system mixes with the house hold water or the Public water main that the only concern is in taste,colour or a slight tummy bug.

Remember these same posters giving advice to general public on a daily basis

If domestic central heating system water is contaminated by pathogenic microogaisms related to waterborne diseases can they survive?

Can they multiply ?
Is it a concern if heating water enters and mix with household drinking water ?
Is it a concern if heating water enters Public water main by back flow ?
If normal water treated with inhibitors and chemicals contained in heating system mixes with house hold water is it a concern?

tonyroc · 11-03-2013 8:42pm

two of my biggest critics on this thread do not seem to realize that flexi hose for feed should be disconnected after top up.
i looked at some old posts by these experts i refer to a thread "Vokera low pressure how do i refill" .after seeing a picture where it would not be possible to disconnect flexi my fan proceeded to explain how to top up but neglected to inform OP that there was an issue
"Please help me find top up valve" in which after seeing picture of pipe it was fairly obvious never been disconnected i would have thought one of my fans could have informed OP of this issue

i could not be bothered searching anymore .Now up to the time i posted that thread that was the feedback i was getting

gifted · 11-03-2013 8:47pm

Seriously lads..is this thread a wind up???;)

tonyroc · 11-03-2013 8:52pm

TPM wrote: »

I have been biting my lip(or fingers in this case) and trying to keep away from this thread.

All decent plumbers are aware of possible the health issues related to central heating water entering drinking water, which can happen from various areas including
Faulty automatic fill valves
Faulty NRV on fill loops left turned on
Passing valves on fill loops turned off but still connected
Incorrect pipework.
There is also a possibility of heating water entering the water storage tank in the attic through various sources including
Leaking cylinder coils
incorrectly installed overflows

Without heating water entering the storage tanks there is plenty of risk of health issues related to the water in them due to various things.

I am not sure what type of response you were expecting to this thread, but I thing part of the reason you didnt get a huge out cry of horror is due to the fact that this issue and most plumbing and heating issues are due to poor/incorrect installation, methods and materials.

All plumbers come across this and many other health/safety issues and when we do we tend to take them in our stride, inform the home owner of the issues the related risks and then the possible options and costs to rectify them.
Unfortunately these issues are now far too common and just part of what you come across and you have to deal with them and the affected home owner as best you can

Based on your post it is obvious that you know there is a problem. Taking this into account and looking back over the last 15yrs where lack of proper regs led to systems being fitted which at that time were compliment but based on what is known now is there any chance at all that there could be a link .Even a 1% chance represents a significant Risk?

remember disease are soaring 2004 one disease 61cases 2011 same disease 272case this is only 1 water bourne disease 2 more follow the same climb . Influenza is also showing major increase patient symptoms similar to legenaires some times these cross over

11-03-2013 8:54pm

tonyroc wrote: »

two of my biggest critics on this thread do not seem to realize that flexi hose for feed should be disconnected after top up.
i looked at some old posts by these experts i refer to a thread "Vokera low pressure how do i refill" .after seeing a picture where it would not be possible to disconnect flexi my fan proceeded to explain how to top up but neglected to inform OP that there was an issue
"Please help me find top up valve" in which after seeing picture of pipe it was fairly obvious never been disconnected i would have thought one of my fans could have informed OP of this issue

i could not be bothered searching anymore .Now up to the time i posted that thread that was the feedback i was getting

Tony you Roc but Hienbloat:cool: is the best:D

DGOBS · 11-03-2013 10:16pm

Tony, I beg to differ, EHOs DO have a remit to test at the outlet in houses connected to the public supply, I know ths as one called here about a year back to do so...........you can't contradict that!

Also, spoke at length with a water microbiologist over the weekend, who said he chance of what you claim is so small, and even then the outcome of more than an upset tummy is so small that its not really worth thinking about.

tonyroc · 11-03-2013 11:07pm

i am only saying consider the possibility

even your microbiologist said the chance is so small ==which means he is not 100%
if you see him again can he find out did they ever check

cigarettes used to be good for us too

so remember sometimes they dont get it right

ok you ring Trim environmental health officer tomorrow and ask her yourself

DGOBS · 11-03-2013 11:15pm

A) you assumed it was a he?

I don't need to ring Trim
C) Cigarettes have killed huge numbers
D) the small chance seems to be millions to one
E) even pasteurization of milk uses a temp of 70degs, the temperature in a central heating system kills all the nasty microbes on a daily basis
F) the microbiologist thinks your a misguided nut (not my words)
G) at this point I will stop feeding the troll, as it doesn't listen to any professional, just makeshis own mind up

Go have a beer, take a deep breath, and always remember, a closed mouth gathers no foot

shane0007 · 12-03-2013 12:43am

Please, Tonyroc, can I cross your bridge?

possible link central heating systems and soaring disease rates

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