Shock Collars

Paul91 wrote: »

no where in what i have read have "brute" force methods been utilized, and to be honest i am against them, but that doesn't mean the training itself is wrong

This is getting OT now, but what the heck

Of course Schutzhund trainers don't advertise their training as being done with shock collars, choke chains or other more or less brutal methods ...they'd never get any customers otherwise.

But strangely enough ...if you do a little research on t'internet into buying a "training collar" almost all sellers have some link or another to Schutzhund training. Coincidence? I think not

Schutzhund training for family dogs is a topic in itself and for another thread, really ...all i'm trying to say is that in my opnion it is pointless to train a family dog to do things that it doesn't need to know.

You can read up on tracking on the internet and get your dog to track sausage trails in your back garden, increasing the difficulty as you go along.

The old fetch game can be trained to perfection ...with stay and down inbetween

You can teach your dog unique skills (like carrying notes as above or fetching the kids for dinner) that are actually useful in your daily life.


All that you can do without competitive pressure, without a rigid one-size-fits-all training schedule and without medals at the end...and you and your dog can have endless fun while doing so and actually get to know each other better instead of having to fight each other to get the training programme worked off.

Any training session that is carried out in earnest and with dedication will be "work" to the dog ...even if it only involves you and a squeeky toy.
"Work" doesn't have to be shouts and frenzied dogs attacking other poeple wrapped in protective armour, despite what the Schutzhund people say

I don't need to read the book, I know what Schutzhund training is about (I grew up next to a training ground )

But I don't want to drag this thread further OT ...it's not about Schutzhund but about shock collars.

In my opinion they are counter-productive.
- getting the dog to to things in order to avoid pain is the wrong training method
- By putting the collar on the dog it will learn that as soon as it does something wrong it will get punished ...that's what the collar is there for. That does not further co-operation, just fear. Sensitive dogs will collapse altogether ...for fear of doing something wrong they will do nothing at all.
- Clever and strong dogs on the other hand soon learn that when the collar isn't on (or that if they bear the pain for a bit and run far enough as to be out of range) they can do whatever they like and you have no command over them
- and then there is the whole danger of wrong associations as mentioned previously.

Paul91 wrote: »

I know OT - but whereabouts? where you able to learn anything productive?

In Germany... and just by watching I decided for myself that that wasn't the kind of relationship I'd like to have with my dog. Too much regimented training going on. In Schutzhund the dog is a tool (or weapon) not a companion ...in my mind anyway

I had left this debate & I have supported Jimmyn but I have to comment on his last post. Until now I have supported to use of e-collars for specific difficult issues like recall in a potential chase situation but:

The idea of using an e-collar to get a dog to sit is insane.
The idea of continually punishing the dog until you get the right reaction is insane.
The idea that you shock the dog until you get the right response is barbaric.
In these situations I would deem an e-collar to be cruel.

I would strenuously oppose anyone using such methods.

The sole justifiable reason for using a radio controlled e-collar is when the dog is at distance from you & will not pay attention. When the dog is on a lead or close by there is absolutely no reason to use discomfort to get correct behaviour.

I have been with dogs who have been trained for Hare Coursing who will, with training, obey most recalls. The problem comes when there is an external influence like a cat or rabbit. I have seen e-collars used successfully in these situations.

The warning tone is critical. As soon as most dogs realise that a shock (not stim !) is preceded by a tone & on good collars a vibration, they will stop running at this warning. Greyhounds are very intelligent & it seems that most only ever get one or two shocks. Now I am not happy about that but I can justify it if it means that the dog can enjoy life off lead.
I would never support giving repeated shocks.

I have suggested that e-collars should only be available to trainers but if they are using them as Jimmyn suggests then I would rather see a total ban.

I totally agree with Peasant regarding the constant need for new fads & gadgets. Give your dog masses of love & affection. Give them a reason to obey you because they want to. Yes talk to your dogs & even more importantly listen to them. They may not be able to speak but when you have good relationship with your dog you will understand most of what they are trying to say. Why should they have to make all the effort to understand us ?. Being able to understand your dog makes the relationship so much better.

EDIT: I have just had a phone conversation with an old friend who works with the RSPCA regarding legal advice. He has said that such "training" as described in Jimmyn's last post would likely constitute a criminal offence in the UK.