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Why do Sinn Féin consistently top online polls?

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    #32
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    GRMA wrote: »

    I always discouraged people from debating politics online (unless its something they really like to do)and especially on politics.ie. Its pretty much a waste of time.. People who talk politics online generally already have their minds made up and discussions are a series of attempts at oneupmanship (certainly here and p.ie, there are one or two sites which are different and mutually beneficial discussion takes place). Even people who claim to be "independent" have their minds made up. They are the "everybody is wrong but me/I wish a party existed that I agreed with" crowd. By engaging in debate you are not going to win over new supporters or members. "Ordinary" people, the kind of people you want to join, don't read these sites, or at least not in any real worthwhile numbers. Time is better spent elsewhere.

    Just out of curiosity why are you on Boards engaging in debates like this if you see it as pointless?


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    #33
    Debator
    Site Banned Posts: 95 ✭✭Debator


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity why are you on Boards engaging in debates like this if you see it as pointless?

    +1. I'd also like to know this.
    And could GRMA also explain why he used to be a member of SF? What made him disillusioned with the party?

    Good to see he acknowledges that SF actively send text messages to their members to prompt them to action. Do other political parties do this?


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    #34
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Not everyone has Internet or uses it regularly to check emails. Sending out texts about meeting times etc is usually the best thing to do. I imagine most party's do it. It's easier and quicker than doing a ring around. Why the surprise ? How do you think party's keep in touch with membership?

    When I say it's pointless I mean from the pov of getting new supporters etc. I do it because I enjoy it and sometimes I benefit from it in terms of developing my own politics.

    Why did I leave Sinn Fein? It always annoyed me when people left if they aired laundry in the public. I won't be doing so. Pretty amicable split however, and I still vote for SF


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    #35
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Good memory there N, but what I am saying in this thread (post#23) is that boards.ie was up to its armpits at one stage with SF threads just prior to the last election. I don't know who started them, Pro SF or Anti SF, but they were popping up at an alarmimg rate pre the last election, and the election before that, if you looked into boards.ie it was wall to wall Sinn Fein threads in after hours & Politics, which begs the question "Why the disproportionate rate of SF threads/posts" if they are/were only the 4th largest party in the State.

    Pro SF threads/ Anti SF threads, they all keep SF in the limelight, which obviously hasn't done them any harm in online polls.


    As I recall you were quite clearly claiming they were set up by pro-SF posters and objected to this in quite shrill tones. Theres something of the same inplication here in your post 23 as well. Perhaps if the non-SF or Anti-SF posters didn't get so worked up, there'd be less of these threads overall...


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    #36
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Nodin wrote: »
    As I recall you were quite clearly claiming they were set up by pro-SF posters and objected to this in quite shrill tones. Theres something of the same inplication here in your post 23 as well. Perhaps if the non-SF or Anti-SF posters didn't get so worked up, there'd be less of these threads overall...

    Let's not go down this particular road.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #37
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Its well known that parties have their own 'shills' to watch online discussions and interact anonymously / under pseudo names. Online polls on a lot of sites are showing Sinn Fein lead the way and follow up discussions are always pro-SF and anti-everybody else. Even when it comes to discussions on party members/TDs involvement in the IRA and active involvement within such republican groups. They are a party that can do no wrong in the eyes of some online discussions, even when all the evidence is stacked against them.

    I think this is based on two reasons;
    1) Sinn Fein are better at getting their members online and fighting their corner than other parties,

    2) Other party votes are less inclined to be the ones partaking in online discussions - though, that is interesting seeing as Ogra Fianna Fail and Young Fine Gael have much bigger memberships and bases around the country of young people who would be more 'modern' and online.

    I also think there is a lot of duplication across sites like TheJournal, where commentators and voters just need to be linked to a social media account which can be created in seconds. I suspect a huge amount of duplicate votes and commentators. Plus, most of these online polls can be abused - delete the cookie, start again. In theory, one voter can vote countless of times. Politics.ie was well known for having duplicate accounts over the years, while Boards took a more hardline approach (probably why Political discussions are much much smaller compared to P.ie). So with that in mind, the polls are much less accurate than the professional opinion polls which consistently proven to show a different mood.


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    #38
    Neutronale
    Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭Neutronale


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Support for SF can mainly be explained by the youthful demographics of the website, and the internet in general I would say. Many SF supporters on here are probably young chaps who still think that supporting the 'RA is the mark of a hard man and don't realise how utterly futile an ideology like nationalism is.

    Regarding "shinnerbots" this is probably untrue, but I do admit to getting a good laugh from time to time at the naive SF propaganda that some of the shinners on here spout. While I obviously can't name them for fear of getting into ad hominem territory, some of the posters on here are so indoctrinated with SF's fusion of far left ideology and extreme nationalism that it's quite pitiful. They'll grow out of it hopefully.

    Thats ridiculous, nationalism is still the foremost ideology in the western world.

    FG like nationalism when it gives them a state where their leader can get a higher wage than the British PM :rolleyes:


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    #39
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Sully wrote: »
    Its well known that parties have their own 'shills' to watch online discussions and interact anonymously / under pseudo names. Online polls on a lot of sites are showing Sinn Fein lead the way and follow up discussions are always pro-SF and anti-everybody else. Even when it comes to discussions on party members/TDs involvement in the IRA and active involvement within such republican groups. They are a party that can do no wrong in the eyes of some online discussions, even when all the evidence is stacked against them.

    I think this is based on two reasons;
    1) Sinn Fein are better at getting their members online and fighting their corner than other parties,

    2) Other party votes are less inclined to be the ones partaking in online discussions - though, that is interesting seeing as Ogra Fianna Fail and Young Fine Gael have much bigger memberships and bases around the country of young people who would be more 'modern' and online.

    I also think there is a lot of duplication across sites like TheJournal, where commentators and voters just need to be linked to a social media account which can be created in seconds. I suspect a huge amount of duplicate votes and commentators. Plus, most of these online polls can be abused - delete the cookie, start again. In theory, one voter can vote countless of times. Politics.ie was well known for having duplicate accounts over the years, while Boards took a more hardline approach (probably why Political discussions are much much smaller compared to P.ie). So with that in mind, the polls are much less accurate than the professional opinion polls which consistently proven to show a different mood.
    baseless paranoia.


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    #40
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    GRMA wrote: »
    baseless paranoia.

    Baseless? It has base. Paranoia? Its mostly based on fact and what is well known within politics (of all parties).

    1) It is well known that parties - not just Sinn Fein - watch and at times engage with online discussions. This is common in every walk of life including business.

    2) A quick look on left-based sites like TheJournal would show the strong defensive argument put up by Sinn Fein when it comes to various issues with party members/TDs/Policies and so on. There quiet on non-political issues but where they can push an agenda or defend their own, their in. Based on just looking at various political threads.

    3) Sinn Fein has a mostly young support base (official polls confirm this) and its known that they encourage their members to engage online (known within political circles).

    4) Most youth branches do the same as Sinn Fein, but are not as successful (obviously - online polls suggest by now that Sinn Fein would be leading this country for decades and have a Sinn Fein President of Ireland). Ogra and YFG have consistently been larger organisations of youth voters (Based on an assumption from knowledge within colleges but is more baseless, ill agree, and open to correction)

    5) Its very easy to re-create social media accounts and post again. I could do it on TheJournal five times and may not get noticed. I'm more likely to be spotted on Boards due to stricter and much more active moderation (obvious by simply comparing discussion levels and moderation). Boards.ie doesn't try fuel discussions in certain directions. But even polls on Boards are not accurate, and open to correction / abuse - just a lot less.

    So has a strong base behind it. But because its not singing the praises for Sinn Fein, it going to be shot down. The Shinners would have you believe the online polls are accurate and some oddly have said elections were fixed because 'all the polls said we were winning and all my friends and their friends were voting for Sinn Fein' - same applies in referendums which don't go Sinn Feins way either.

    Also, its a fact and not baseless that Sinn Fein implement austerity and property tax in the North. They are against such in the South. Its a fact that they take orders from a 'foreign body' that they fought against for so many years but are again the South being told what to do (temporarily) from the EU/IMF. Now obviously we can discuss why there are differences in policy implementation - but Sinn Fein are not proposing an alternative similar to what they already do in government in the North. They are 100% opposed in the South because its a popular thing to do - get votes on the background that the government are mean, greedy, power hungry folk that screw you and the hardworking people to the wall. Say you are opposed to this and people will (in theory - but its not working for them) flock in your direction.

    Sinn Fein have proven they are no different to FF/FG/Lab. They claim the same wage, and say they don't. They claim mostly more expenses, and whine about others expenses. The list goes on. They are just like everyone else.


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    #41
    Technoprisoner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭Technoprisoner


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    I think their popularity simply reflects a viewpoint similar to yours which is a protest view. You don't say you want to vote for their policies, simply just because they are opposing the government.


    either way they are getting my vote.


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    #42
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Again, let's keep this to a discussion of the OP rather than moving off into a discussion of Sinn Fein's policies and so on.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • Options
    #43
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Sully wrote: »
    Baseless? It has base. Paranoia? Its mostly based on fact and what is well known within politics (of all parties).

    1) It is well known that parties - not just Sinn Fein - watch and at times engage with online discussions. This is common in every walk of life including business.

    2) A quick look on left-based sites like TheJournal would show the strong defensive argument put up by Sinn Fein when it comes to various issues with party members/TDs/Policies and so on. There quiet on non-political issues but where they can push an agenda or defend their own, their in. Based on just looking at various political threads.

    3) Sinn Fein has a mostly young support base (official polls confirm this) and its known that they encourage their members to engage online (known within political circles).

    4) Most youth branches do the same as Sinn Fein, but are not as successful (obviously - online polls suggest by now that Sinn Fein would be leading this country for decades and have a Sinn Fein President of Ireland). Ogra and YFG have consistently been larger organisations of youth voters (Based on an assumption from knowledge within colleges but is more baseless, ill agree, and open to correction)

    5) Its very easy to re-create social media accounts and post again. I could do it on TheJournal five times and may not get noticed. I'm more likely to be spotted on Boards due to stricter and much more active moderation (obvious by simply comparing discussion levels and moderation). Boards.ie doesn't try fuel discussions in certain directions. But even polls on Boards are not accurate, and open to correction / abuse - just a lot less.

    6)So has a strong base behind it. But because its not singing the praises for Sinn Fein, it going to be shot down. The Shinners would have you believe the online polls are accurate and some oddly have said elections were fixed because 'all the polls said we were winning and all my friends and their friends were voting for Sinn Fein' - same applies in referendums which don't go Sinn Feins way either.

    7)Also, its a fact and not baseless that Sinn Fein implement austerity and property tax in the North. They are against such in the South. Its a fact that they take orders from a 'foreign body' that they fought against for so many years but are again the South being told what to do (temporarily) from the EU/IMF. Now obviously we can discuss why there are differences in policy implementation - but Sinn Fein are not proposing an alternative similar to what they already do in government in the North. They are 100% opposed in the South because its a popular thing to do - get votes on the background that the government are mean, greedy, power hungry folk that screw you and the hardworking people to the wall. Say you are opposed to this and people will (in theory - but its not working for them) flock in your direction.

    8)Sinn Fein have proven they are no different to FF/FG/Lab. They claim the same wage, and say they don't. They claim mostly more expenses, and whine about others expenses. The list goes on. They are just like everyone else.

    1) Not to me. You mean on a party level and not just individual members?

    2) Again do you mean the party have some sort of system set up and tell or even encourage people to engage on sites like that? They don't. Individual members might like to comment however.

    3) Thats not known to me. Thats because it is not true.

    4) So you are saying other parties do the things you allege above, ie getting people to engage online?

    5) Are you saying SF get people to make multiple accounts etc? They dont. Do some individuals set out to do this off their own bat? I dunno, maybe. No one I knew did it, they had better things to do. What would be the point? Sites like p.ie, polls on them etc are in the grand scheme of things not important.

    6) Paranoia. "SF would have you believe" would they? No, they either dont even mention online polls (because they are unimportant) or they would say that they are just online polls which have no meaning. Come on.

    7) Thats all off topic. As well as disingenuous and inaccurate.

    8) See above.


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    #44
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Around these parts, I personally see nothing to suggest organised SF posting or any sign of direction from above. I have seen over the years, some more organic and limited banding together of certain posters but not for some time.

    I strongly suspected that at one time, some posters (all of whom I believe are no longer with us and are thus unable to defend themselves) practiced something along the lines of the 99 Call as a means of getting negative or blatantly anti-SF threads locked through thread spoiling but that seems to be long gone.


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    #45
    Debator
    Site Banned Posts: 95 ✭✭Debator


    Very interesting post Robbo.
    Isn't there a secret Republican forum on boards where members must be invited? What exactly is discussed there that can't be discussed openly on the Politics forum? Is it possible that the secret forum serves as a rallying point for planning the de-railing of perceived anti-SF/IRA threads?

    Here is an example of one such group that I could find. Irish Republicans. All the members are there for you to see


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    #46
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Lol!

    I imagine admins can see the forum and would shut it pretty quickly if that was the case

    This thread is ridiculous.

    Ever hear the song "the man from the daily mail"? You're starting to sound like him


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    #47
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Sorry for the delay.
    GRMA wrote: »
    1) Not to me. You mean on a party level and not just individual members?

    Both (at the youth branch level). Not sure how it works and what branches encourage it, like on other parties - some branches are better at it than others.
    2) Again do you mean the party have some sort of system set up and tell or even encourage people to engage on sites like that? They don't. Individual members might like to comment however.

    Not that I was aware off, and I would suspect such a system would be tough to make. But, my understanding was that some branches have encouraged their members to get out and support the party online. I have heard this over the years from people actively involved in youth politics.

    Its just about pointing out party policy and clarifying misconceptions over spreading false information or attacking others. No harm in it.
    3) Thats not known to me. Thats because it is not true.

    Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean its not true. Unless your an encyclopedia of knowledge and know everything?

    For example; In the January 2013 poll by RedC, Sinn Fein had the third largest percentage of youth voting for them with Fine Gael topping at 25%, Fianna Fail 21% and Sinn Fein 20% (effectively putting FF & SF 'neck and neck' with Youth voters.) In addition, Sinn Fein support was largest amongst the youth vote compared with any other age group (for those voting Sinn Fein).
    4) So you are saying other parties do the things you allege above, ie getting people to engage online?

    Youth branches have encouraged members to get online and engage. I'm aware that all parties do it and even Independents get in on the act. I'm not saying its wrong.
    5) Are you saying SF get people to make multiple accounts etc? They dont. Do some individuals set out to do this off their own bat? I dunno, maybe. No one I knew did it, they had better things to do. What would be the point? Sites like p.ie, polls on them etc are in the grand scheme of things not important.

    Nope, I very much doubt Sinn Fein or any other party would actively encourage their members to get involved in online 'fraud' voting. But its well known that people (not for any particular party) do have multiple accounts on some discussions forums and thus this runs the risk of multiple voting for polls. I have seen on a number of online polls that I can vote multiple times. If I can, so can others. What's to say they wont?

    Thus, these online polls are not accurate.
    6) Paranoia. "SF would have you believe" would they? No, they either dont even mention online polls (because they are unimportant) or they would say that they are just online polls which have no meaning. Come on.

    Paranoia? Or just blindly supporting your party? I have seen multiple posts online from people who say they are Sinn Fein supporters claiming online polls were accurate, claiming that the polls by RedC etc were 'government propaganda' and false. Yet, when an election or referendum comes these online polls are rubbished and the polling by reputable organisations such as RedC are generally accurate.
    7) Thats all off topic. As well as disingenuous and inaccurate.

    Could argue its off topic. Wouldn't say its inaccurate or disingenuous.
    8) See above.

    As above.


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    #48
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Evidence for you assertion please
    Both (at the youth branch level). Not sure how it works and what branches encourage it, like on other parties - some branches are better at it than others.

    Thats not true, as I said I'm in a better position to know having been a member and involved at that level as well as the main party.


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    #49
    Da Shins Kelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,048 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    I don't know anything about Sinn Fein having people online voting for them in polls or engaging in discussions. I do, however, know quite a few people my own age (early 20s) who are interested in Sinn Fein as a party, much moreso than the likes of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael. Maybe it's romantic notions that appeal to them, or maybe it's simply disillusionment with the other parties (I know that's how I feel about Labour, won't be voting for them again. Never would have voted FF or FG anyway), but Sinn Fein do seem to have have quite a big following among younger people. This is bearing in mind that not every young person interested in politics is going to sign up to the youth section of their chosen party. Maybe older people who still see Sinn Fein as inextricably linked to the IRA see them differently, but that stuff is less important to younger people, I've found. It's got less to do with issues of the past, and more to do with the future. And as we all know, this generation of young people are more tuned into technology and all the outlets of the internet and so are more likely to be vocal in support online. However, perhaps young people are less likely to actually go out and vote? I've no statistics on this, just my own experience.


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    #50
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    GRMA wrote: »
    Evidence for you assertion please



    Thats not true, as I said I'm in a better position to know having been a member and involved at that level as well as the main party.

    Well I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I can't prove it. I have never been a member of Sinn Fein, just stuff I picked up during my time in politics. Ill just stand by your theory that it doesn't happen as you are more in the know than I am :)


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