DART+ (DART Expansion)

Donegal Storm · 23-07-2017 1:04pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

No. This broad brush analysis completely ignores the areas Ireland is doing very poorly for a rich Western European nation. We're bottom of the table in terms of infrastructure. We invest less than any other Western European nation. You have to head deep into Eastern Europe to find a country with as primitive a system as ours.

Its like a weeping wound just leaking GDP, like a dripping pipe in the water table. Its just bad economics.

I wouldn't go so far as to call our infrastructure third world, but it certainly isn't first world.

I fully agree we should be spending more in Dublin but there's a whole raft of reasons why we are where we are. The likes of Belgium, Netherlands etc have been wealthy developed countries for generations, we've made massive strides in the past 20 years in catching up. Lack of good PT historically means we've developed a car dependency that was never necessary in core EU cities

We're one of the most sparsely populated countries in western Europe and among the least urbanised. Also being an island means all our infrastructure is point to point so has no larger investment benefit like a lot of inter-country routes on the continent that wouldn't be justified otherwise. We don't have the critical mass for rail outside of Dublin and then there's the whole political/cultural can of worms of Dublin vs the west.

Aside from the need for major rail investment in Dublin and a few big road projects elsewhere (much of which will hopefully happen in the coming decade) I'd say we have the makings of a decent first world network considering the above points.

McAlban · 23-07-2017 1:44pm

I've spent a lot of time in Munich, Berlin and North Rhine-Westphalia/Hesse over the last 13 years. Yes There is excellent public infrastructure. But there is also huge social deprivation. I spent a month there in October, streets are filthy, homeless everywhere. Lots of groups of immigrants congregating in the square. Pickpockets and muggers apparently everywhere. I know all cities have this, but to me Germany was not pleasant the last time I was there.

While we were there some European colleagues were astounded we got a taxi to the office the first day. explaining we could walk 5 minutes from the hotel and get the U-Bahn to the Hauptbahnhoff and walk the 300m to the office. It's a different mentality totally. Because they expect even a minor city of 500k people to have good public infrastructure.

D Trent · 17-09-2017 9:11pm

https://fora.ie/dart-underground-dublin-delays-3598155-Sep2017/

dublinman1990 · 18-09-2017 12:54am

If the project head said that this project is a cashflow issue; where does that issue arise? Is the issue of funding from the NTA or our own government? If the question of EU funding for the project is still on the table for the project; why not just apply for it, save it for just building the DU and not spend it on anything else? Will the Irish economy be at risk of overheating itself again because of providing new funding for DU along with other essential projects that are going to become a lot more expensive in the long term?

marno21 · 18-09-2017 12:56am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

If the project head said that this project is a cashflow issue; where does that issue arise? Is the issue of funding from the NTA or our own government? If the question of EU funding for the project is still on the table for the project; why not just apply for it, save it for just building the DU and not spend it on anything else? Will the Irish economy be at risk of overheating itself again because of providing new funding for DU along with other essential projects that are going to become a lot more expensive in the long term?

Government. NTA can't fund a captial project like this itself. Only the DART Extension to Balbriggan (stupid ****) is included in the Capital plan, along with a redesign of the DART Underground tunnel.

dublinman1990 · 18-09-2017 1:06am

marno21 wrote: »

Government. NTA can't fund a captial project like this itself. Only the DART Extension to Balbriggan (stupid ****) is included in the Capital plan, along with a redesign of the DART Underground tunnel.

On your point about the extension to Balbriggan; Yeah I do agree this part of the plan is also completely stupid to be put in now and only should be done after the DART extension to Maynooth. And yet again even more money is being wasted on the stupid redesign of DU.

I suppose the only thing on the cashflow side currently delaying funding for DU is money for housing, health and the new PS pay deal.

bk · 18-09-2017 11:37am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I suppose the only thing on the cashflow side currently delaying funding for DU is money for housing, health and the new PS pay deal.

I suspect Metro North is the biggest issue. It was never likely that both MN and DU would go ahead at the same time. They are both just too big a project and cost too much to happen at the same time. Really we can only afford one major project at a time.

Metro North is politically a much easier sell then DU, so it was likely to get the go ahead first and that seems to be the case, likely a major announcement on this coming in a few weeks.

I suspect we will see the focus being on building Metro North over the next 5 to 7 years, taking us into the mid 2020's and then hopefully work will begin on DU.

dublinman1990 · 18-09-2017 9:33pm

bk wrote: »

I suspect Metro North is the biggest issue. It was never likely that both MN and DU would go ahead at the same time. They are both just too big a project and cost too much to happen at the same time. Really we can only afford one major project at a time.

Metro North is politically a much easier sell then DU, so it was likely to get the go ahead first and that seems to be the case, likely a major announcement on this coming in a few weeks.

I suspect we will see the focus being on building Metro North over the next 5 to 7 years, taking us into the mid 2020's and then hopefully work will begin on DU.

I would agree with that too about MN. Both projects do have a huge price tag upon them to let the government, the NTA, IE & the RPA to begin construction on two projects at the same time. I suspect that when either one of the projects gets the go ahead to get built. I will be happy with any decision by being patient to allow one project get built at a time to prevent conflicts of interests & when a lack of funding from all parties involved in the projects does not arise. It is good that patience is a strong virtue in people as a lot of potential headaches can become a victim of unravelling itself as a lot of stuff dealing with the Irish PS can be like that regularly.

marno21 · 18-09-2017 9:37pm

Metro North + DART Expansion to Maynooth would be a good compromise between now and 2026. Then you have ~250-350m knocked off the price of DART Expansion and hopefully the DART Expansion would be ready to go for 2025/6 when Metro North is complete.

This, unfortunately, to have both open by 2031/2, seems to be wildly optimistic at present.

rocketspocket · 20-09-2017 11:04am

Look at crossrail - they just got their heads down and got on with it & that project is exponentially more complex than Dart underground - seems what we do best is just talk and talk about a project without actually doing anything.

D.L.R. · 20-09-2017 11:28am

rocketspocket wrote: »

Look at crossrail - they just got their heads down and got on with it & that project is exponentially more complex that Dart underground - seems what we do best is just talk and talk about a project without actually doing anything.

London has 10x the population and 10x the GDP of Dublin. I worry that we've bit off way more than we can chew attempting a full size rail tunnel under Dublin with 200m platforms etc, when a light rail version would be just as welcome.

Why do Irish Rail even need to be involved? EU rules state that rail infrastructure and rail services are not to be monopolised by one company.

They should just build it through TII. Its time the tail stopped wagging the dog and the state brought Irish Rail to heel because its clear they are one of the major contributing factors to this project's failure to get going.

The fact Metro North has leapfrogged DU in the govt's to do list is clear evidence of that.

Sam Russell · 20-09-2017 11:33am

D.L.R. wrote: »

London has 10x the population and 10x the GDP of Dublin. I worry that we've bit off way more than we can chew attempting a full size rail tunnel under Dublin with 200m platforms etc, when a light rail version would be just as welcome.

Why do Irish Rail even need to be involved? EU rules state that rail infrastructure and rail services are not to be monopolised by one company.

They should just build it through TII. Its time the tail stopped wagging the dog and the state brought Irish Rail to heel because its clear they are one of the major contributing factors to this project's failure to get going.

The fact Metro North has leapfrogged DU in the govt's to do list is clear evidence of that.

It is only clear evidence that the Gov does not want IR involved in anything as they think they are a basket case.

D.L.R. · 20-09-2017 11:36am

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is only clear evidence that the Gov does not want IR involved in anything as they think they are a basket case.

Right, so does that not also mean they should get on with reforming it or abolishing it, instead of just standing by letting the railways rot and ignoring DU as a concept?

Sam Russell · 20-09-2017 11:40am

D.L.R. wrote: »

Right, so does that not also mean they should get on with reforming it or abolishing it, instead of just standing by letting the railways rot and ignoring DU as a concept?

Well, the Gov have a very high commitment to roads - rails not so much.

D.L.R. · 20-09-2017 11:45am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, the Gov have a very high commitment to roads - rails not so much.

And that's a problem if you want to improve urban PT.

CatInABox · 20-09-2017 12:30pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Right, so does that not also mean they should get on with reforming it or abolishing it, instead of just standing by letting the railways rot and ignoring DU as a concept?

The Irish Rail unions are basically the most powerful/worst of the bunch, any reform or abolishment would result in either huge demands (A ten minute scehdule!?!?!? We'd need a 50% increase for that), or huge, multi-union strikes.

MJohnston · 20-09-2017 12:51pm

CatInABox wrote: »

The Irish Rail unions are basically the most powerful/worst of the bunch, any reform or abolishment would result in either huge demands (A ten minute scehdule!?!?!? We'd need a 50% increase for that), or huge, multi-union strikes.

Might be better off making Dart Underground, and thereby Irish Rail, rather obsolete by instead pushing ahead with potential Dublin Metro lines that would negate the need for DU.

D.L.R. · 20-09-2017 12:54pm

CatInABox wrote: »

The Irish Rail unions are basically the most powerful/worst of the bunch, any reform or abolishment would result in either huge demands (A ten minute scehdule!?!?!? We'd need a 50% increase for that), or huge, multi-union strikes.

Well they're driving themselves into extinction with their idiotic demands. Govt needs to step in and take responsibility instead of sitting idly by waiting for the whole thing to collapse.

rocketspocket · 20-09-2017 12:59pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Might be better off making Dart Underground, and thereby Irish Rail, rather obsolete by instead pushing ahead with potential Dublin Metro lines that would negate the need for DU.

I don't see how the metro lines negate DU; if anything I would choose DU over MN as its has much greater impact to dublin as a whole.

MJohnston · 20-09-2017 1:20pm

rocketspocket wrote: »

I don't see how the metro lines negate DU; if anything I would choose DU over MN as its has much greater impact to dublin as a whole.

I said potential Metro lines, and by that (and sorry, it probably wasn't clear) I mean other lines that come after the North and Green Line upgrades. I think there are completely hypothetical Metro West routes (unrelated to the abandoned MW) that could relieve a lot of the pressure on the demands for DU, without simply duplicating the existing rail lines.

bk · 20-09-2017 1:43pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

London has 10x the population and 10x the GDP of Dublin. I worry that we've bit off way more than we can chew attempting a full size rail tunnel under Dublin with 200m platforms etc, when a light rail version would be just as welcome.

Plus an elected Mayor and a lot more local power.

D.L.R. wrote: »

Why do Irish Rail even need to be involved? EU rules state that rail infrastructure and rail services are not to be monopolised by one company.

They should just build it through TII. Its time the tail stopped wagging the dog and the state brought Irish Rail to heel because its clear they are one of the major contributing factors to this project's failure to get going.

DU would be definitely built by TII, as will the Dublin Metro and all major infrastructure projects. The issue is you then need to get Irish Rail to actually use it!

Look at the problems with the 10 minute DART schedule. The government spends millions on the city center resignalling project on the promise of increased services, only for them to turn around and say, oh we can't operate that schedule!

Irish Rail is 160 million in debt and on the brink of bankruptcy and has very serious industrial relations issues. Given that, you can easily see why the government is slow to invest 4 billion in that mess.

MJohnston wrote: »

I said potential Metro lines, and by that (and sorry, it probably wasn't clear) I mean other lines that come after the North and Green Line upgrades. I think there are completely hypothetical Metro West routes (unrelated to the abandoned MW) that could relieve a lot of the pressure on the demands for DU, without simply duplicating the existing rail lines.

Another possibility would be to build an East to West Metro, through a regenerated Dublin Port, through the city center roughly following the DU route and out to Lucan, etc.

Would likely be much cheaper to build and would avoid all the issues with Irish Rail.

It wouldn't be as beneficial to existing DART services, but still would be an ok solution with just one change, which isn't unusual for most cities public transport networks. You just need to get true integrated ticketing.

I'm not saying this is likely to happen, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is in the back of the planners heads as a plan B.

antoinolachtnai · 20-09-2017 2:01pm

The intent is that CIE would build DU and the legislation is certainly set up like that.

CIE is intended as an infrastructure company as much as, and really more than, an operating company.

CIE certainly needs to completely transform to make these sorts of high-frequency services work.

I would say that CIE needs to find an international partner (a foreign railway company who would take a stake) to really make its transition from a regional operator to an urban operator.

bk · 20-09-2017 2:22pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The intent is that CIE would build DU and the legislation is certainly set up like that.

If that is true, then I'd personally say it is dead! Not chance at all it will happen. It will get scrapped and probably eventually a Metro built instead. If TII was building it at least some chance, but CIE definitely won't be trusted with a 4 billion project.

marno21 · 20-09-2017 2:27pm

bk wrote: »

If that is true, then I'd personally say it is dead! Not chance at all it will happen. It will get scrapped and probably eventually a Metro built instead. If TII was building it at least some chance, but CIE definitely won't be trusted with a 4 billion project.

TII need to be given the remit of all transport infrastructure development. Then it has a chance

It would be irresponsible to give CIE that much money for anything let alone something that'll become union leverage

bk · 20-09-2017 2:34pm

marno21 wrote: »

TII need to be given the remit of all transport infrastructure development. Then it has a chance

It would be irresponsible to give CIE that much money for anything let alone something that'll become union leverage

Yes, I thought they looked after all new transport infrastructure, but having just checked, you are right, it is just roads and light rail (which includes Metro). But not heavy rail, that comes under CIE.

No wonder DU has been sidelined so.

If heavy rail infrastructure came under TII, then I could see some hope. But if not, that Plan B I mentioned could become a real runner.

Might explain the rename of Matro North to Dublin Metro, not only because it is going further south, but to also position it for future lines.

LXFlyer · 20-09-2017 2:42pm

marno21 wrote: »

TII need to be given the remit of all transport infrastructure development. Then it has a chance

It would be irresponsible to give CIE that much money for anything let alone something that'll become union leverage

Unions have had very little influence over capital investment projects. That is a complete red herring.

The issue has been always been with regard to operations.

marno21 · 20-09-2017 2:46pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Unions have had very little influence over capital investment projects. That is a complete red herring.

The issue has been always been with regard to operations.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that DU could be under construction and scheduled to open at the end of the year and the Unions would suddenly use it as an excuse to demand a pay rise or similar; and then you have another strike. So the net cost of DU then rises even further. Something the Government doesn't want.

bk · 20-09-2017 3:01pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Unions have had very little influence over capital investment projects. That is a complete red herring.

The issue has been always been with regard to operations.

They have a very strong indirect effect.

For instance, the government spent 10's of millions on lengthening the DART platforms so that they can take 8 carriage DARTS. The drivers refused to operate the longer trains on "safety grounds". Eventually the government agreed to pay them an extra €10k each and suddenly said safety issues go away!

Same with current issues with 10 minute DARTS, etc.

The nightmare scenario would be for the government to spend 4 billion on building DU, only for the drivers to refuse to operate through it on some "safety grounds", while holding out for more money, etc.

Can you imagine the bad press if that happened. Politicians don't want bad press like that, better to avoid the problem completely.

The truth is that the unions and staff have such a dysfunctional relationship with their own management and the government in general, that I think the government has zero interest in investing in IR and growing it. Not when they have a much easier alternative in Luas/Metro.

LXFlyer · 20-09-2017 3:07pm

bk wrote: »

They have a very strong indirect effect.

For instance, the government spent 10's of millions on lengthening the DART platforms so that they can take 8 carriage DARTS. The drivers refused to operate the longer trains on "safety grounds". Eventually the government agreed to pay them an extra €10k each and suddenly said safety issues go away!

Same with current issues with 10 minute DARTS, etc.

The nightmare scenario would be for the government to spend 4 billion on building DU, only for the drivers to refuse to operate through it on some "safety grounds", while holding out for more money, etc.

Can you imagine the bad press if that happened. Politicians don't want bad press like that, better to avoid the problem completely.

The truth is that the unions and staff have such a dysfunctional relationship with their own management and the government in general, that I think the government has zero interest in investing in IR and growing it. Not when they have a much easier alternative in Luas/Metro.

Complete rubbish.

The DART drivers did not get one cent extra for operating the longer trains.

They looked for it, but they never got it.

At least get your facts correct about something like this.

LXFlyer · 20-09-2017 3:28pm

marno21 wrote: »

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that DU could be under construction and scheduled to open at the end of the year and the Unions would suddenly use it as an excuse to demand a pay rise or similar; and then you have another strike. So the net cost of DU then rises even further. Something the Government doesn't want.

Regardless of who builds DU, the same drivers would end up operating it.

It takes 18 months to train up new drivers - do you seriously think that they're going to hire completely new drivers and then remove all the current ones?

Hence my skepticism regarding who builds it - the issue of potential pay claims would be there regardless.

LUAS and Metro can only go so far - there has to be heavy rail investment in Dublin sooner rather than later and not investing in it because of preconceived notions (as some here have) is frankly going to result in Dublin grinding to a standstill.

I'm already noticing the impact of the measures on the Dublin Quays for example with traffic moving to other areas such as the SCR which don't have proper bus priority measures and longer journey times as a result.

DART Underground is a necessity if this city isn't going to become a glorified car park.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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