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Trinity BEGGING for money
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You claimed that TAP allowed entry to TCD via both direct entry with no points reduction, and via an Access course and that both these were seperate from HEAR.
No, I said that TAP is a distinct entity to HEAR, but I'm well aware that students apply through HEAR. The difference is that HEAR links different universities to specific schools. Trinity, as far as I'm aware, is the only college with its own access office (which again, you apply to through HEAR). The distinction is that HEAR is run by several universities, TAP is Trinity-specific. With regards direct enty, if someone gets the points, they may still be eligible to TAP supports if they meet a number of criteria - applying for HEAR is in no way distinct from direct entry.That's completely wrong, I showed you, and instead of accepting you were wrong you decided to bull**** and attack me.
This is the interwebz, nobody is bullshítting or attacking you, I'm responding to your points, but if you want to I can RESPOND LIKE THIS!!!!!!1!!1)You claimed the TAP programme was distinct from HEAR, and then described the part of the TAP programme which is actually HEAR. HEAR in TCD is run and administered by the TAP office.
I said they're distinct entities, but as I said, I'm well aware that TAP operates with HEAR. Let me just reiterate, HEAR is run by several unis, TAP is TCD-specific. If I didn't explain it very well then my bad.2)Students are only eligible for TAP status if they apply through the HEAR, or through the foundation course. There is no TAP direct entry via CAO points aside from HEAR. There is no mythical third option that you keep claiming.
When you apply for HEAR you still go through the CAO - that is direct entry. When have I mentioned some sort of mythical third option? Anyway, in light of what I've just told you, please read again what I said:
At entry level, TAP works in two ways. If a student in a designated disadvantaged school gets the points (via HEAR or otherwise), they're eligible for TAP status. Each course has a requirement to allocate 15% of their places to "non-traditional" (mature, TAP, disability) students, and the TAP students are entitled to one of these places (admittedly, this may have changed recently, but I can't be certain). If the student doesn't get the points, but demonstrates academic capability, they can apply to one of two foundation courses: TAP or Liberties.Exactly, what about it? I pointed out that in my experience of HEAR students, every single one was receiving the top-up grant. I also pointed out the existence of the SAF. And I also said
So why are you trying to attack me over it?
I can't see why you bothered bringing the top-up grant up. It was completely irrelevant given that pretty much everyone below a certain income is entitled to it, which means TAP students are too.
I wasn't attacking you over it, I was responding. If you perceive everyone's response as an attack then the internet will not be a pleasant place for you.I'm not the one who lacks comprehension skills. I'm also not the one who lacks the ability to know when wrong when contradicting the TCD TAP website, or the one who gets bitchy when wrong.
So now if you read up you'll find I'm in no way contradicting the TAP website. I don't know where you're getting the bitchyness from.You are a TAP ambassador(according to your own words).
You know **** all about the eligibility of TAP.
What's your problem with my factual statement? Dude, seriously, I'm sorry my knowing more about non-traditional entry to TCD offends you, but jaysus - get over it.
Again, in light of my previous comments, these statements here make you look very, very silly.Access Courses/Mature Student Entry has been proven to be a big success in both graduation rates, and grades achieved in any college that has published stats on it in Ireland. The social cost of it is far outweighed by the social benefit. HEAR is different, and unfortunately I've yet to see any even brief studies on the relative successes/failures of HEAR students as compared to normal direct entry students.
Are you saying HEAR is different because it hasn't been a success? What are you basing this on? I know it's only anecdotal, but I gave a large number of examples of successful TAP students in TCD. Which universities are you referring to here? Or are you just arguing that HEAR is different because of the lack of studies? If that's the case then fair enough - I would agree that we need more objective studies/statistics on the success/failure of TAP/HEAR students.College grant/assistance schemes are imho, deeply flawed and need vast overhauls as too many people(from many socio-economic backgrounds) get money they don't need while too many people don't get the money they do need.
You could argue that the means test currently in place for the grants is badly developed, fair enough, but I can say with certainty that most people who get the grant need the money - myself very much included.0 -
Perhaps alongside sucess / failure rate from Santa Sabina / Blackrock students. The eager and the entitled - its a nice Sociology paper in the making providing the language is tempered to academic standards ?*
*from a mature student (36 yrs) on a Dublin Bus disability pass who never claimed privilege. I could have walked into TCD at any point with my ancient LC alone.
My main point is, however you arrive at TCD - there is plenty of room to either prove or fail yourself. Shoddy facilities, crap lecturers, someone was in my seat are not excuses. To those who look for my previous posts in this forum, yup, I stand by what I said about TCD.
However, I do not dispute anyones right or method of entry.0 -
FloatingVoter wrote: »Perhaps alongside sucess / failure rate from Santa Sabina / Blackrock students. The eager and the entitled - its a nice Sociology paper in the making providing the language is tempered to academic standards ?*
*from a mature student (36 yrs) on a Dublin Bus disability pass who never claimed privilege. I could have walked into TCD at any point with my ancient LC alone.
My main point is, however you arrive at TCD - there is plenty of room to either prove or fail yourself. Shoddy facilities, crap lecturers, someone was in my seat are not excuses. To those who look for my previous posts in this forum, yup, I stand by what I said about TCD.
However, I do not dispute anyones right or method of entry.
And that's the thing, TAP students do very well academically, and are highly represented across clubs and societies. We've had several in the SU, including a sabbatical candidate who did quite well.0 -
TrollHammaren wrote: »And that's the thing, TAP students do very well academically, and are highly represented across clubs and societies. We've had several in the SU, including a sabbatical candidate who did quite well.
...and I will guess several that aren't known about due to their working two or three jobs and not joining any societies. Or choosing not to as is their wont. If we changed TAP students to "black" , "jewish" or "muslim" students with a simple search and replace would this thread be any more tasteful. Or would the OP be a little red in the face at the moment ?0 -
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Wow, a lot seem to think that TAP/HEAR students are getting a free ride and have no other problems at all. I'm not familiar with the mature student and not too familiar with the actual Liberties, TAP etc. programs but I do know HEAR pretty well. Most of you are just looking at the money aspect and think that "oh it's unfair they get more than me, I'd like that money if you're offering" but how much are you or your parents earning? Over €20,000? Over €50,000 combined? More?
You all don't seem to realise how hard some people have it, and the whole class system. Most people will remain in the same class as their parents, and if you come from a lower background it isn't exactly the nicest thing. You don't know how hard it is to climb higher and just because someone has more money than you shouldn't mean you're denied entry into a course that you have an ability for and where you're trying to educate yourself, not go on the dole for €180 or whatever it is a week. By investing in their education you're actually saving money, the tax they'll pay back in their higher earning jobs is much more than the money they're being given to study and it much less costly than the €180 a week they would otherwise be receiving for the majority of their lives.
I got accepted into the HEAR scheme and I went to a pretty alright school, it wasn't a DEIS school but it wasn't the Institute or the likes. My parents earn a combined income of less than €20,000 a year and I worked part time throughout 5th and 6th year to generate a bit of extra income to help pay the bills. Because of the exam pressure and pressure of having to work, (if I didn't work we would have been much less off and without it we were on the verge of having our electricity and gas cut off even though we had cut down so much on usage) I considered dropping out mid 6th year but decided to just take the exams and see if I could pull through. I'm quite intelligent, I have a natural ability to perform well in exams and I studied 8 honors subjects as well as LCVP because I was determined to get a place on the course in Trinity. I most certainly wasn't too lazy to study or not bothered.
I got over 500 points in the leaving, about 40 or so more than I needed for my course; not all HEAR students are people with 200 points getting into courses over 400. With HEAR I didn't get reduced points because I obviously didn't need them and most of the people I met during the HEAR introduction week didn't get reduced points either, they were a pretty bright bunch. The most I've heard of a reduction was 15%, which if you're a low performer it isn't exactly going to get you into medicine, law or any of the other high point courses. If I hadn't of gotten the required points and HEAR had awarded me a place, I would have been pretty appreciative. HEAR students aren't taking the places of other students — the 5% or so of places in courses are specifically set aside for them and were never the "average entry" student's places to begin with.
Everyone keeps going on about how unfair the points reduction is for worse-off students and acts like they're being given a free entry ticket into the course they want. Acceptance into HEAR is based on 3 of 6 factors, and to have 1 of those factors alone is unfavourable, never mind 3. Have you ever thought about how each of these factors affects a student? The pressure the student is under to help their parents, the pressure the parents are under, so much that the child has less resources because the parents can't afford it? I never received any extra tutoring, grinds, notes or anything of the likes because we couldn't afford it. A lot of people I know went to grinds in the institute, hundreds of euro per subject and still ended up with less points than me; it's all about how much you can balance things and work as hard as you can. HEAR wont give a student a course with a requirement of 500 points unless the student has around 85% of the points already, and if they have that much already their ability for the course is probably fine. The points system isn't based on how hard a subject is — that's why the matriculation requirements are in place — but is based on demand. If they get 85% of the points, they're pretty smart and most likely well able for their course. Also, it's all subject related; in order to get a lower reduction in points for a science course you'd need to achieve good results in your science subjects — you can't bank of high results in English, Irish etc. and almost fail our science subjects then think, sure it's grand because HEAR will put me through! Definitely not the case.
As soon as I went into JF I was treated the exact same as everyone else; infact noone even knew I had a HEAR background. At exam time I don't get extra time, resources or anything else, I'm just a normal Trinity student. We did get access to laptops that we could borrow, but I never used the service. There was an offer for HEAR students to get educational assistance, but again, I never used it; all Trinity students do have access to the normal student learning support centre though. I also received a waiver of the students sports centre charge, I got a bursary of €120 per month and I got a grant. I applied for a grant just like everybody else who is not on the TAP or HEAR schemes did. Just because I was a HEAR student it didn't mean I was automatically granted a non-adjacent grant.
Without this financial assistance I wouldn't have been able to afford university. Without university I would be working a low paying job and struggling to pay my bills, remaining in the constant cycle. The majority of my grant money is spent on travel expenses, books, food and utility bills etc., certainly unlike the scandal reported a while back where students from families earning considerably more than those on the HEAR program received grants they didn't necessarily need them and ended up spending the money on designed clothes and their social life. I've also had a small job throughout university to pay for my luxuries, far from a free ride even with the extra financial assistance.
When I graduate I'll be able to get a job that's high earning and pay tax, a far cry from queuing outside the social welfare offices every week to collect my 'wages'. Without all the help I don't know where I'd be today, certainly not in university.
I'm not sure if I've conveyed my points clearly enough, but I've just tried to explain to you all that just because I'm a TAP or HEAR student, it doesn't mean that I'm substandard or less competent than you. If you were in my situation and were given the opportunity to have some financial assistance, I can guarantee you that you wouldn't turn it down. It's easy to be all talk, but when you're actually put in a situation it's much more complicated and you start to worry about how you're actually going to be able to do well in university and pay your bills.
If I could get an amazing job that pays well or if my parents were in a more fortunate position where they could afford to send me to university I wouldn't apply for financial assistance because I wouldn't need it and wouldn't get it. Unfortunately that is not the case. So please, before you go bashing us, educate yourself on the matter.0 -
Wow, a lot seem to think that TAP/HEAR students are getting a free ride and have no other problems at all. I'm not familiar with the mature student and not too familiar with the actual Liberties, TAP etc. programs but I do know HEAR pretty well. Most of you are just looking at the money aspect and think that "oh it's unfair they get more than me, I'd like that money if you're offering" but how much are you or your parents earning? Over €20,000? Over €50,000 combined? More?
You all don't seem to realise how hard some people have it, and the whole class system. Most people will remain in the same class as their parents, and if you come from a lower background it isn't exactly the nicest thing. You don't know how hard it is to climb higher and just because someone has more money than you shouldn't mean you're denied entry into a course that you have an ability for and where you're trying to educate yourself, not go on the dole for €180 or whatever it is a week. By investing in their education you're actually saving money, the tax they'll pay back in their higher earning jobs is much more than the money they're being given to study and it much less costly than the €180 a week they would otherwise be receiving for the majority of their lives.
I got accepted into the HEAR scheme and I went to a pretty alright school, it wasn't a DEIS school but it wasn't the Institute or the likes. My parents earn a combined income of less than €20,000 a year and I worked part time throughout 5th and 6th year to generate a bit of extra income to help pay the bills. Because of the exam pressure and pressure of having to work, (if I didn't work we would have been much less off and without it we were on the verge of having our electricity and gas cut off even though we had cut down so much on usage) I considered dropping out mid 6th year but decided to just take the exams and see if I could pull through. I'm quite intelligent, I have a natural ability to perform well in exams and I studied 8 honors subjects as well as LCVP because I was determined to get a place on the course in Trinity. I most certainly wasn't too lazy to study or not bothered.
I got over 500 points in the leaving, about 40 or so more than I needed for my course; not all HEAR students are people with 200 points getting into courses over 400. With HEAR I didn't get reduced points because I obviously didn't need them and most of the people I met during the HEAR introduction week didn't get reduced points either, they were a pretty bright bunch. The most I've heard of a reduction was 15%, which if you're a low performer it isn't exactly going to get you into medicine, law or any of the other high point courses. If I hadn't of gotten the required points and HEAR had awarded me a place, I would have been pretty appreciative. HEAR students aren't taking the places of other students — the 5% or so of places in courses are specifically set aside for them and were never the "average entry" student's places to begin with.
Everyone keeps going on about how unfair the points reduction is for worse-off students and acts like they're being given a free entry ticket into the course they want. Acceptance into HEAR is based on 3 of 6 factors, and to have 1 of those factors alone is unfavourable, never mind 3. Have you ever thought about how each of these factors affects a student? The pressure the student is under to help their parents, the pressure the parents are under, so much that the child has less resources because the parents can't afford it? I never received any extra tutoring, grinds, notes or anything of the likes because we couldn't afford it. A lot of people I know went to grinds in the institute, hundreds of euro per subject and still ended up with less points than me; it's all about how much you can balance things and work as hard as you can. HEAR wont give a student a course with a requirement of 500 points unless the student has around 85% of the points already, and if they have that much already their ability for the course is probably fine. The points system isn't based on how hard a subject is — that's why the matriculation requirements are in place — but is based on demand. If they get 85% of the points, they're pretty smart and most likely well able for their course. Also, it's all subject related; in order to get a lower reduction in points for a science course you'd need to achieve good results in your science subjects — you can't bank of high results in English, Irish etc. and almost fail our science subjects then think, sure it's grand because HEAR will put me through! Definitely not the case.
As soon as I went into JF I was treated the exact same as everyone else; infact noone even knew I had a HEAR background. At exam time I don't get extra time, resources or anything else, I'm just a normal Trinity student. We did get access to laptops that we could borrow, but I never used the service. There was an offer for HEAR students to get educational assistance, but again, I never used it; all Trinity students do have access to the normal student learning support centre though. I also received a waiver of the students sports centre charge, I got a bursary of €120 per month and I got a grant. I applied for a grant just like everybody else who is not on the TAP or HEAR schemes did. Just because I was a HEAR student it didn't mean I was automatically granted a non-adjacent grant.
Without this financial assistance I wouldn't have been able to afford university. Without university I would be working a low paying job and struggling to pay my bills, remaining in the constant cycle. The majority of my grant money is spent on travel expenses, books, food and utility bills etc., certainly unlike the scandal reported a while back where students from families earning considerably more than those on the HEAR program received grants they didn't necessarily need them and ended up spending the money on designed clothes and their social life. I've also had a small job throughout university to pay for my luxuries, far from a free ride even with the extra financial assistance.
When I graduate I'll be able to get a job that's high earning and pay tax, a far cry from queuing outside the social welfare offices every week to collect my 'wages'. Without all the help I don't know where I'd be today, certainly not in university.
I'm not sure if I've conveyed my points clearly enough, but I've just tried to explain to you all that just because I'm a TAP or HEAR student, it doesn't mean that I'm substandard or less competent than you. If you were in my situation and were given the opportunity to have some financial assistance, I can guarantee you that you wouldn't turn it down. It's easy to be all talk, but when you're actually put in a situation it's much more complicated and you start to worry about how you're actually going to be able to do well in university and pay your bills.
If I could get an amazing job that pays well or if my parents were in a more fortunate position where they could afford to send me to university I wouldn't apply for financial assistance because I wouldn't need it and wouldn't get it. Unfortunately that is not the case. So please, before you go bashing us, educate yourself on the matter.
Thank you. This is what TAP and similar programs are about. Education should be freely available to everybody, provided they can meet the academic criteria and your background or parents financial status should not be determinative of you getting a place. TAP tries to level the playing field as best as it can and it improves every year.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 7865
Jesus. I haven't been on boards in a few days and I arrive back to this. This thread is a mess.
Keep the personal abuse to a minimum, and carry on.
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