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12 Reported Murdered at Charlie Hebdo by Islamists

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Comments

  • #92
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    No there is a fundamental difference.
    Both are of course horrific and wrong - however they don't compare well.
    Misguided nationalists target a specific group(s) and base their beliefs, rightly or wrongly on actual events.
    Misguided religious fundamentalists base their beliefs on intangible ideas and target every single person that disagrees with them.
    These religions often claim perfection, infallibility and Islam in particular emphatically states the impossibility any compromise on any of its central or even peripheral tenets with the implicit and explicit threat of punishment for infidels. Moderates who uphold these outrageous ideals give a necessary shelter for the breeding of fundamentalism.
    These supporters of violent nationalism target anyone who disagrees with them; when they planted bombs in shopping centres and pubs, they didn't care who they killed or injured.

    The claims of a religion or nationalism or any other belief system can be extreme or moderate; the fundamentalists will take any tenet and interpret it in a way that turns it into an uncompromising, outrageous and arrogant "right" to use violence and death. Moderates who uphold the outrageous ideals give a necessary shelter for the breeding of fundamentalism...


  • #93
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    katydid wrote: »
    But I agree there were plenty people out there like you describe. My point is that they certainly didn't represent your average Irish person, who despised and condemned the IRA.
    I suppose that is the point, people would openly condemn the IRA while in the office, but on a friday night in the pub, and with unknown eyes on them, they would throw the money into the bucket. And there is no "average person", there is a whole gradient of people from one extreme to the other. I can tell you, in that time and in that place, it would have taken a brave and foolish person to stand up and start condemning "the ra".
    I would imagine that friday night at the mosque is a time of mixed emotions these days for many muslims in London and Paris.


  • #94
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    recedite wrote: »
    I suppose that is the point, people would openly condemn the IRA while in the office, but on a friday night in the pub, and with unknown eyes on them, they would throw the money into the bucket. And there is no "average person", there is a whole gradient of people from one extreme to the other. I can tell you, in that time and in that place, it would have taken a brave and foolish person to stand up and start condemning "the ra".
    I would imagine that friday night at the mosque is a time of mixed emotions these days for many muslims in London and Paris.

    Well, a person who really condemned the IRA wouldn't hang out in a pub like that in the first place...there were/are plenty pubs in London where you wouldn't be put in that position.

    I'm not being holier than thou about this; I can understand that you would have issues of safety if you found yourself by accident in a place like that. But surely you'd get the hell out of there the minute you realised where you were?


  • #95
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    katydid wrote: »
    But surely you'd get the hell out of there the minute you realised where you were?

    Jeez, if only life were that simple :rolleyes: Perhaps not holier than thou, but pretty naive to be blunt.


  • #96
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Its was just a trad session in a pub, not a republican rally.


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  • #97
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    recedite wrote: »
    Its was just a trad session in a pub, not a republican rally.

    Then the landlord should have kicked the terrorist supporters out, and the locals should have told them where to go.


  • #98
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Shrap wrote: »
    Jeez, if only life were that simple :rolleyes: Perhaps not holier than thou, but pretty naive to be blunt.

    Life IS that simple. If you find yourself in a place or a situation where you feel uncomfortable, you get out of it. If you're in a pub where they start collecting for the IRA, you make your excuses and leave, not pretend to contribute to them.


  • #99
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    katydid wrote: »
    Life IS that simple. If you find yourself in a place or a situation where you feel uncomfortable, you get out of it. If you're in a pub where they start collecting for the IRA, you make your excuses and leave, not pretend to contribute to them.

    Not sure you have any idea how dangerous it felt to be on the "wrong side" in those days. If you were talking to people that you didn't know well, you would have no idea of the depth of their loyalties, so to speak. The landlord too. Why would he put his business and possibly his family at risk of intimidation/harm rather than turn a blind eye to a bucket being passed around?

    I wasn't in London in those years, but in Dublin I can't tell you the lengths I went to deny that I'm half English and to big up my nationalist credentials when the need arose. And there was a need. In some public situations you'd have wanted to have your wits about you to plamás your roots/accent/loyalties away. Why do you think the Irish are so good at fence-sitting?! And our politicians are masters at the art of saying nothing at all? Very uncertain times. I'm totally with recedite in what he's saying about the mosque being a pretty uncomfortable place right now.


  • #100
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    katydid wrote: »
    Well, a person who really condemned the IRA wouldn't hang out in a pub like that in the first place...there were/are plenty pubs in London where you wouldn't be put in that position.

    I'm not being holier than thou about this; I can understand that you would have issues of safety if you found yourself by accident in a place like that. But surely you'd get the hell out of there the minute you realised where you were?

    You really do live in a black and white world ,don't you .


  • #101
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Interestingly, I think our past here means that we have a certain depth of understanding about how people become radicalised and how the moderates have treat this with kid gloves. They have to take baby steps in a vastly more volatile environment than we ever had here though, and with vastly greater numbers of fanatics at the helm. I'd be bloody scared if I was Muslim right now - I don't fancy their job in trying to inch towards a more peaceful interpretation of Western ways.


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  • #102
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,233 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    someone asked reddit muslims about their feelings on representations of mohammed:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2rqb6r/muslims_of_reddit_are_you_offended_when_someone/


  • #103
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    marienbad wrote: »
    You really do live in a black and white world ,don't you .
    No, but I can tell wrong from right.

    How hard can it be to make your excuses and leave if you find yourself in a situation where people are collecting for terrorists? Seriously?


  • #104
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    katydid wrote: »
    Life IS that simple. If you find yourself in a place or a situation where you feel uncomfortable, you get out of it. If you're in a pub where they start collecting for the IRA, you make your excuses and leave, not pretend to contribute to them.
    See the thing is, that most people were really there for the music and to meet up with other people. The people who produced the bucket were opportunists who were piggybacking on the craic and the heightened nationalistic feelings that normally come with the combination pints and ballads. So if you are sitting there and the guy beside you passes you the bucket, what do you do do? The main thing is to get rid of it as quickly as possible by passing it on, and then go back to enjoying your pint. But in order to pass it it on you must either donate, or refuse to donate, either of which is making a statement. Pretending to donate (which may or may not have looked convincing :o) was just the best compromise solution I could come up with while on the spot.


  • #105
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    katydid wrote: »
    No, but I can tell wrong from right.

    How hard can it be to make your excuses and leave if you find yourself in a situation where people are collecting for terrorists? Seriously?

    So can we all, maybe we all don't have your moral courage or is it smugness to reduce it to such binary terms .

    Anyway this thread is about 12 people murdered in France so lets not derail another conversation by dragging an Irish dimension into it.


  • #106
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    katydid wrote: »
    No, but I can tell wrong from right.

    How hard can it be to make your excuses and leave if you find yourself in a situation where people are collecting for terrorists? Seriously?

    FFS. I hope you never have to find out. Try using your imagination. Or perhaps you are somebody who never dissembles anything, even out of self-preservation (in spite of self-preservation?).

    I can tell right from wrong too. It would be wrong for example to put myself in immediate danger and in the way of ongoing abuse/shunning for the sake of a truth that bigger people than me were shouting at each other about across the divide. When you're a long way off peace, it's quite scary y'know. I wouldn't be so sure how you'd react tbh.

    Edit: Marianbad has it right. This is not about Ireland, but in fairness I do think we have an understanding of sorts about how disenfranchised communities are ripe for radicalisation.


  • #107
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,396 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    katydid wrote: »
    If you find yourself in a place or a situation where you feel uncomfortable, you get out of it.
    I'm glad Nelson Mandela never developed your attitude to injustice.


  • #108
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,396 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    I think the early European explorers did find some extremely pacifist societies on various islands, but they went extinct quite quickly after being discovered.
    The more general observation across many religions, times and places, is that religions which grew up in societies living in resource-rich environments tended to have kind, forgiving gods devoted to co-operation and generosity.

    While religions which developed in societies in resource-poor environments tended to have violent, mafia-style gods bent on domination and control. And when one religion met the other, the more violent religion tended to subjugate the more peaceful - often simply following the alleged advice of one catholic cleric - "kill the lot for god will know his own".


  • #109
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    robindch wrote: »
    I'm glad Nelson Mandela never developed your attitude to injustice.

    Huh?


  • #110
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,396 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    katydid wrote: »
    Huh?
    Many people here believe it can be a good idea to stand up to bullies - you seem to believe differently.


  • #111
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    robindch wrote: »
    Many people here believe it can be a good idea to stand up to bullies - you seem to believe differently.

    Well, it would probably be a good idea to stand up to IRA thugs or their supporters if you're suicidal. Most people aren't that brave.


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  • #112
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    robindch wrote: »
    Many people here believe it can be a good idea to stand up to bullies - you seem to believe differently.

    In fairness to katy, I think she was saying the opposite to what you're thinking. She was talking about not putting money in the collection for the IRA and walking out instead. For all my ideals, as a panicky young thing, I'd have dissembled. I admire her notion of courage but wonder how she'd have actually reacted under the circumstances. Off topic though.


  • #113
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    katydid wrote: »
    Well, it would probably be a good idea to stand up to IRA thugs or their supporters if you're suicidal. Most people aren't that brave.

    Now you have it.


  • #114
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Shrap wrote: »
    Now you have it.

    So what the f**k has that got to do with Nelson Mandela?


  • #115
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    katydid wrote: »
    So what the f**k has that got to do with Nelson Mandela?
    Oh dear. I didn't mention Nelson Mandela. Robin did. He took your comment out of context, I think.


  • #116
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Shrap wrote: »
    Oh dear. I didn't mention Nelson Mandela. Robin did. He took your comment out of context, I think.

    Sorry, my apologies...


  • #117
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Shrap wrote: »
    In fairness to katy, I think she was saying the opposite to what you're thinking. She was talking about not putting money in the collection for the IRA and walking out instead. For all my ideals, as a panicky young thing, I'd have dissembled. I admire her notion of courage but wonder how she'd have actually reacted under the circumstances. Off topic though.

    I wonder myself, but I like to think I would have.

    To be honest, I don't think I've have ended up in a place like that. You get to know the Irish pubs in London where that kind of stuff goes on, and to avoid them. I frequented Irish pubs a fair bit, but there were ones we would stay away from.


  • #118
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,396 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Shrap wrote: »
    She was talking about not putting money in the collection for the IRA and walking out instead.
    Well, you pick your fights - depending on context, it can be appropriate to walk out or ignore or acquiesce, but it can be appropriate to confront too.

    Bullies get off on acquiescence and katydid's comment that one should never confront - the comment I picked up upon - is more than a touch misguided, as various violent and near-violent experiences have taught me as the years drift by.


  • #119
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    robindch wrote: »
    Well, you pick your fights - depending on context, it can be appropriate to walk out or ignore or acquiesce, but it can be appropriate to confront too.

    Bullies get off on acquiescence and katydid's comment that one should never confront - the comment I picked up upon - is more than a touch misguided, as various violent and near-violent experiences have taught me as the years drift by.

    One's first choice would be to make one's excuses and leave, WHERE POSSIBLE. It may not always be possible. But it would not be wise to confront a pub full of drunken IRA supporters or "Friday night Republicans"...


  • #120
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    katydid wrote: »
    One's first choice would be to make one's excuses and leave, WHERE POSSIBLE. It may not always be possible. But it would not be wise to confront a pub full of drunken IRA supporters or "Friday night Republicans"...

    ...or indeed, leave.


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  • #121
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Best to finish one's pint at a leisurely pace, and then leave.


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