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Nesting Robin and the affects of Magpie and other predators on Song Birds

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Comments

  • #62
    Kess73
    Registered Users Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    jwshooter wrote: »
    what we have hear is failure to communicate and the failure by some to open there eyes and look around them .

    vermin like magpies/grey crows are on the increase ,were all agreed on that .

    song bird numbers are all on the decrease were all agreed on that .

    vermin eat eggs/nestlings/small birds were all agreed on that .


    what part of this do you not understand .



    Untrue.

    All songbirds are not on the decline, and in areas that they are, the magpie has been found to be in decline also. Any areas where magpies have seen large increases in their populations, the small bird populations in the same area have increased by a larger %.

    Years of research and tetrad surveys have proven what you say is incorrect, if you can produce some valid studies to back up what you are claiming or at least name the organisations who did them so people can check for themselves, then what you are saying may be taken as something other than housewive's tales.


  • #63
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    jwshooter wrote: »
    Come to think of it i have not seen a sparrow hawk for a while now ,but i did catch 5 magpies in the last two days .:D

    The last time i saw a sparrowhawk, ironically it was a female snacking on a young magpie!!:eek:


  • #64
    Leila Swift Apricot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Leila Swift Apricot


    jwshooter wrote: »
    Come to think of it i have not seen a sparrow hawk for a while now ,but i did catch 5 magpies in the last two days .:D

    You haven't seen Sparrowhawks because you weren't looking for them. <snip>


  • #65
    Feargal as Luimneach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭Feargal as Luimneach


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    The last time i saw a sparrowhawk, ironically it was a female snacking on a young magpie!!:eek:
    If Ireland had a healthy populations of Raptors (unlikely in this country with poisoning and shooting to a lesser degree:mad:), there would be alot less crows and a balance would be achieved.


  • #66
    BryanL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭BryanL


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BryanL
    the
    prey populations concerned had been limited by predation,
    and once predators were removed, prey populations rose.[/B] "

    Birdnuts wrote: »
    An extremely simplistic and dangerous argument that has done untold damage to species and ecosystems around the world ever since humans decided they know better then nature, including prey species that in the absence of predators degrade their own habitats through overpopulation, depleting food supplies leading to an inevitable population crash which often takes out/negatively affects a whole host of other species that depend on the same habitat.



    That's not my view Birdnuts, I was quoting the RSPB's study! It's not an argument i'm putting forward, it is the result of the review of relevant studies by the RSPB.
    Damn science


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  • #67
    Leila Swift Apricot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Leila Swift Apricot


    But Bryan, those studies are not pertinent to the subject in hand. They deal with breeding success in the absence of all predators. We were discussing the impact of magpies on songbird populations. Breeding success, as I said earlier but you ignored, does not lead to increased population due to all the other limiting factors. Sparrowhawks have abigger impact as they take adult birds trying to rear chicks for example.
    Use research and studies certainly but they must be relevent to the topic.


  • #68
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    BryanL wrote: »




    That's not my view Birdnuts, I was quoting the RSPB's study! It's not an argument i'm putting forward, it is the result of the review of relevant studies by the RSPB.
    Damn science

    Limited studies with narrow objectives that look at one species only are not a basis for sustaineable conservation at a broader ecosystem level - I think you'll find even the RSPB would concur with that reality:)


  • #69
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »
    If Ireland had a healthy populations of Raptors (unlikely in this country with poisoning and shooting to a lesser degree:mad:), there would be alot less crows and a balance would be achieved.

    Very true - people should visit parts of Eastern and Central Europe to get a sense of what Irelands raptor numbers/species should be - the lack of pest corvids is these areas is telling!!:rolleyes:


  • #70
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    The last time i saw a sparrowhawk, ironically it was a female snacking on a young magpie!!:eek:

    Birdnuts, you don't happen to be a falconer do you?


  • #71
    jwshooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭jwshooter


    Leila Swift Apricot wrote: »
    You haven't seen Sparrowhawks because you weren't looking for them.

    what are you implying .


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  • #72
    Wild_Dogger
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Wild_Dogger


    jwshooter wrote: »
    what are you implying .

    I think it implys that your primary interest is conserving your shooting entertainment .

    but I could be wrong


  • #73
    Feargal as Luimneach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭Feargal as Luimneach


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Very true - people should visit parts of Eastern and Central Europe to get a sense of what Irelands raptor numbers/species should be - the lack of pest corvids is these areas is telling!!:rolleyes:
    Was birdwatching in India 3 years ago and one of the things you notice is the abundance of crows. Indian vulture species have declined by roughly 95% due to poisoning in last twenty years. The crows have replaced the vultures are the main scavengers. However the increase in crows there don't seem to have affected small bird populations (info from local birdwatchers).


  • #74
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »
    Was birdwatching in India 3 years ago and one of the things you notice is the abundance of crows. Indian vulture species have declined by roughly 95% due to poisoning in last twenty years. The crows have replaced the vultures are the main scavengers. However the increase in crows there don't seem to have affected small bird populations (info from local birdwatchers).

    Indeed, the decline of the likes of the Indian Slender bill Vulture from literally millions in the 80's to a few hundred today outstrips the man-made catastrophe that saw the Passenger Pigeon driven to extinction in the US just under a century ago:(

    The same thing is happening in Africa where species of vultures such as the Egytion, Lappet-Faced, White Necked and Cape vultures are among some of the most endangered species on the continent - thankfully though on a recent trip to Zimbabwe I was pleased to see Cape Vultures at least are doing better there:).


  • #75
    BryanL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭BryanL


    Leila Swift Apricot wrote: »
    But Bryan, those studies are not pertinent to the subject in hand. They deal with breeding success in the absence of all predators. We were discussing the impact of magpies on songbird populations. Breeding success, as I said earlier but you ignored, does not lead to increased population due to all the other limiting factors. Sparrowhawks have abigger impact as they take adult birds trying to rear chicks for example.
    Use research and studies certainly but they must be relevent to the topic.
    Not true Leila Swift Apricot on page 2,
    I gave you,Groom 93, dealing with magpies and songbirds only

    you came back with thompson et al, an analysis of census carried out on on all birds.

    So i'm being most relevant.Try and keep up with your own rules.
    I know you keep saying breeding success doesn't lead to larger populations, but you haven't given a study?
    give us a relevant one,only magpies and only songbirds,your rules


  • #76
    jwshooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭jwshooter


    its a lot of what the eye does not see the hearth will not miss ,


  • #77
    skua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭skua


    We don't need to control nature, that is the height of arrogance. Numbers of prey and predators in nature balance out by themselves. We don't kill one native species for the benefit of another.

    <snip>
    Mod note
    Address the content of posts only. This is no place for personal remarks


  • #78
    Leila Swift Apricot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Leila Swift Apricot


    BryanL wrote: »
    I know you keep saying breeding success doesn't lead to larger populations, but you haven't given a study?

    I don't know how many of these are available on the internet. I wish I could scan them to here. In addition the the full text of Thompson -

    A Moller 1988
    PB Stacey et al 1990
    W Koenig 1991 & 1996
    Steckler & Welch
    J Usher 1999
    M Wilson 2008
    GF Smith et all 2007

    Look you all win. I'm tired beating my head against a wall on this. If you think Magpies are a predation concern so be it. However I refuse to accept the taking of game scenario as that requires control of Magpies purely to provide for better hunting. Nothing against hunting at all, just the pretense that control activities are for the greater good of the environment.


  • #79
    Mothman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Mothman


    I've reviewed this thread and have closed it to further discussion.

    It has gone full circle, probably more than once and in my opinion would continue to do so.

    There are been many informative posts but there is not going to be a concensus agreed by all


This discussion has been closed.
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