Good Indo Editorial on Infrastructure(20/06/06)

road_high · 23-06-2006 1:15pm #1

Still in the slow land

THE Edgeworthstown bypass opened yesterday with little fanfare. Quite right too. Too often in the recent past, governments, and not only the Fianna Fail-PD coalition, cackled like a hen laying an egg every time they unveiled a few kilometres of motorway and dual carriageway.

It was scandalous that these roads were constructed in that piecemeal fashion, and degrading that politicians boasted of achievements which were trifling by comparison with the progress made in poorer countries like Portugal.

Our motorway programme should have started 30 years ago. An entire network should have been completed 15 years ago at the very latest. Instead, even now, even after 12 years of the Celtic Tiger, we proceed at a snail's pace.

The phrase is singularly appropriate here. A campaign to save a rare snail held up the Kildare bypass. A campaign to save an insignificant castle placed the M50 in its present weird condition, neither finished nor unfinished.

Projects that in other countries whizz along are delayed unconscionably in Ireland by antics like the Carrickmines Castle affair.

But it is not enough to blame factors like these. A government that really wants things done will get them done. But the present Government has consistently underspent on the capital side of the Budget. Planning and vision both call for a different style.

bryanw · 23-06-2006 3:09pm

Well, for a change, I'll have to agree with this article, even though I think the Indo has changed itself a lot recently (and not for the better).

I think the points it highlighted about the road network being made up in a piecemeal fashion is a very good one. I think it would have been great if our motorway network was started 30 years ago, but despite what they say, I really don't think the country had the money at the time. Why would they build new highways for thousands of people who might be emmigrating soon.

I do also agree with them on the fact that there has been a slow take up in recent years to speed along the process now that we have the money. The hold-ups like Carrickmines Castle, the Snails and Tara (which I notice they didn't mention) are unexcusable, especially if we need to remain competitive etc. we need to have this infrastructure for our people and our economy, and the wants of some tree-hugging environmentalists should not hold up the needs of many.

Finally, they mention the current goverment and their lack of of vision...(or whatever they say). I think it's in the country's interest to keep the current government in power, because look at the alternative! I don't foresee Labour/Fine Gael making up the total numbers on their own, but the might be able to if they bring in someone like the Greens. If the Greens get any say in a government, our road network is doomed - not to mention the economy. And the professional complainers Labour and Fine Gael don't look like their going to be any better than the current government at all.

AndrewMc · 23-06-2006 3:42pm

I can understand that finances may delay the construction of a road, but are they actually all planned already (and I just hadn't noticed) or are they really planned in pieces, too? Surely by now the whole motorway network could be mapped-out to within an inch of its life, even if construction won't be starting for a few years.

Chris_533976 · 23-06-2006 3:59pm

I agree that the whole lot should have been finished ages ago. However, I can understand to a degree why it wasnt. Noone could have predicted the increase in traffic.

Also, I dont fully buy this ->

Instead, even now, even after 12 years of the Celtic Tiger, we proceed at a snail's pace.

Yes, it could be faster. Yes, stuff is getting delayed. But, after years of patchworking stuff, you cant deny that the whole N8 project is finally getting there. It appears to me theyve more or less said 'sod it' and are building all the sections at once.

Diaspora · 23-06-2006 4:14pm

Roads in Ireland have traditionally been built not on the basis of traffic flows or strategic importance but more on the basis of the premise of building three half specified patches as against one major road so that three cackling hens can go back to their constituencies with the golden egg.

Such political expediency has also led to a situation where roads such as the M3 with zero national strategic importance is being built prior to completion of the M8, M4 and M5 and only marginally ahead of the M1

To complicate matters further the route chosen has walked the taxpayer right into the anger of the Director of National Museum amongst others.

On every level roads policy is an abysmal failure from planning, route selection, tendering, contracting through to managment.

Victor · 24-06-2006 1:09am

mfitzy wrote:

THE Edgeworthstown bypass opened yesterday with little fanfare. Quite right too. Too often in the recent past, governments, and not only the Fianna Fail-PD coalition, cackled like a hen laying an egg every time they unveiled a few kilometres of motorway and dual carriageway.

Cullen still deos it. Its just Pat the Cope wanted this one. Of course, but do you think they would publish a map? [edit] http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/SchemeMaps/file,1466,en.pdf

It was scandalous that these roads were constructed in that piecemeal fashion,

Like this one.

Our motorway programme should have started 30 years ago.

It did, the Naas bypass opened in 1983/4.

An entire network should have been completed 15 years ago at the very latest.

What is "an entire network"?

The phrase is singularly appropriate here. A campaign to save a rare snail held up the Kildare bypass.

Indeed, but the delay was down to the council not gettign it right.

A campaign to save an insignificant castle placed the M50 in its present weird condition, neither finished nor unfinished.

Not-insignificant. The weirdest part of this is it is called M50

Planning and vision both call for a different style.

WEll thought out journalism would be good too.

Metrobest · 24-06-2006 8:22am

To complicate matters further the route chosen has walked the taxpayer right into the anger of the Director of National Museum amongst others.

Oh dear, the Director of the National Museum is angry. Better not build the motorway then. :rolleyes:

This Indo editorial might have been relevent five years ago, but we can all see the progress on road building with our very own eyes as year by year stretches of motorway extend out of Dublin. The planning and cost control has improved beyond recognition.

If only the same progress was being made with public transport...

Diaspora · 24-06-2006 1:33pm

Metrobest

It is extremely short sighted to be sarcastic about the director of the national museum given his standing and Irelands standing as one of the most culturally important early civilisations. For the minister to state that every angle will be looked at and to publicly state that he will abide by the judgement of the director of the national museum he must take the view into account and not merely dismiss it.

The M2 could be as far as Kells at this stage had Cullen listened to that type of advice three years ago; it is entirely probable that someone will make a further judicial challenge to the route and whatever the rights and wrongs this will cost the taxpayer €ms in delays and construction inflation.

I also strongly disagree that planning has improved as evidenced by plans to build a full western bypass of Galway to areas with no real population (beyond the Headford road where it should end) through three Special Areas of Conservation. Again the lessons of Tara have not been learned and if you are in the Country your taxes will be paying for both a road that is not required and the legal hold ups to deliver the unnecesary road.

Victor · 25-06-2006 12:27am

Metrobest wrote:

The planning and cost control has improved beyond recognition.

The cost has disimproved beyond recognition.

Old system:

Cost to government = cost of design + design inflation + land + legal + construction + inflation + contingency = X

New system:

Cost to government = cost of design + design inflation + land + legal + (construction + inflation) + contingency + exceptional profit to cover contractor taking on risk = 2x

Chris_533976 · 25-06-2006 12:11pm

+ general Irish Government fartabout

Hoof Hearted · 26-06-2006 4:07pm

Did someone call my name?

westtip · 14-07-2006 12:27am

Diaspora wrote:

Such political expediency has also led to a situation where roads such as the M3 with zero national strategic importance is being built prior to completion of the M8, M4 and M5 and only marginally ahead of the M1

To complicate matters further the route chosen has walked the taxpayer right into the anger of the Director of National Museum amongst others.

.

The M3, the N2 dual carriageway and the M1 all running in pretty much the same direction ten miles apart - Cullen and his cronies couldn't plan a P U in a brewery. Meath needed one good Motorway which could have been kept well away from Tara and ll the pain and delay that is going to entail (and all with good reason) with good quality feeder roads to places like Navan. Not even in the crowded south east of England do they have the absurd situation of three main dual carriageways running parallel to each other. Its a joke and a waste of resources. Its all about parrsh pump politics and the flabby white boys puffing out their chests saying I did this and I did that - you would think they wore the hard hats and drove the JCBs themselves the way they bleat on. What a bunch of brainless idiots we have in charge.

mysterious · 14-07-2006 12:39am

westtip wrote:

The M3, the N2 dual carriageway and the M1 all running in pretty much the same direction ten miles apart - Cullen and his cronies couldn't plan a P U in a brewery. Meath needed one good Motorway which could have been kept well away from Tara and ll the pain and delay that is going to entail (and all with good reason) with good quality feeder roads to places like Navan. Not even in the crowded south east of England do they have the absurd situation of three main dual carriageways running parallel to each other. Its a joke and a waste of resources. Its all about parrsh pump politics and the flabby white boys puffing out their chests saying I did this and I did that - you would think they wore the hard hats and drove the JCBs themselves the way they bleat on. What a bunch of brainless idiots we have in charge.

Good point westtip. I mean the N3 and N3 especially run very closly together in meath. Take Rathoath for example both can use the N2 or N3 with in around the same time to Dub.

When Drogheda was bottlenecked people used to go via the N2, now the M1 is finsihed it's in reverse.

The N3 is now clogged up, so traffic is divrting onto the new Ashbourne bypass.

It's absalutley insane nonsense. athe road north of ashbourne could run via Rathoath east of Dunshaughlin, and merge to N2 and N3 before Navan. Hense this would avoid Hill of Tara too.!

spacetweek · 14-07-2006 7:12pm

mysterious wrote:

Good point westtip.

I totally disagree. The N2 only goes as far as Ashbourne and is only a commuter route so it doesn't count. The M3 will serve the northwest and the M1 is for Belfast. Each road has a separate purpose. What's the problem?

gingerGiant · 14-07-2006 8:45pm

spacetweek wrote:

I totally disagree. The N2 only goes as far as Ashbourne and is only a commuter route so it doesn't count. The M3 will serve the northwest and the M1 is for Belfast. Each road has a separate purpose. What's the problem?

Couldn't agree more.

Also the historical sites along the proposed M3 in the disputed Tara section are all of pretty minor importance and that section has a lower number of sites per kilometre than the other sections and also than any section of the M1 which I don't recall any legal challenges about. In My Opinion those taking the legal actions are just people with too much time on their hands looking for something to do.

The M3 is badly needed based on traffic volumes on the N3. An upgrade of the M50 intersection and the currently dueled section of the N3 to 3 lanes in each direction is also needed.

mysterious · 14-07-2006 9:06pm

spacetweek wrote:

I totally disagree. The N2 only goes as far as Ashbourne and is only a commuter route so it doesn't count. The M3 will serve the northwest and the M1 is for Belfast. Each road has a separate purpose. What's the problem?

N2 is actually north west too. I'd be fine with two routes upgraded rather than three. P.s M3 is not needed, if it's going ahead M status is fine to Navan, but still why can't they just have a standard dual carrigeway, I wouldn't even give it HQDC. afterall the traffic generated on the N3 commuter generated. Cavan does not DESERVE a motorway most of it's lenght. Not trying to make offence but...

bk · 14-07-2006 9:23pm

mysterious wrote:

N2 is actually north west too. I'd be fine with two routes upgraded rather than three. P.s M3 is not needed, if it's going ahead M status is fine to Navan, but still why can't they just have a standard dual carrigeway, I wouldn't even give it HQDC. afterall the traffic generated on the N3 commuter generated. Cavan does not DESERVE a motorway most of it's lenght. Not trying to make offence but...

I've asked this question in another thread, but I think it doesn't cost that much more to build a Motorway then a dual carriageway (the land is the biggest expense). So for a change the government isn't being cheap and is instead planning ahead and future proofing. I think this is a good thing.

Diaspora · 15-07-2006 9:57pm

spacetweek wrote:

I totally disagree. The N2 only goes as far as Ashbourne and is only a commuter route so it doesn't count. The M3 will serve the northwest and the M1 is for Belfast. Each road has a separate purpose. What's the problem?

But where in the North West are you talking about?

http://www.nra.ie/Transportation/TrafficDataCollection/TrafficCounterData/html/N03-06.htm

This point of the N3 5kms South of Cavan never exceeds 10900 a day at any period. The problem is the squandering of €800m on the largest pork barrell project the Country has ever seen.

Diaspora · 15-07-2006 10:23pm

Compare those stats to the M1 or N7

The M3 is unjustifiable

Maskhadov · 15-07-2006 10:34pm

im not against motorways providing the government expands the rail network (eg navan link)

nordydan · 15-07-2006 10:36pm

What these figures show is that the volume of traffic on all roads is growing at an alarming rate. I reckon the volume of traffic on the N3 would double in 6 years where a motorway built.

Diaspora · 16-07-2006 3:08pm

nordydan wrote:

What these figures show is that the volume of traffic on all roads is growing at an alarming rate. I reckon the volume of traffic on the N3 would double in 6 years where a motorway built.

I agree it would double and funnel twice as much traffic onto the M50 and Navan Road which neither of will be able to take. For all the plans to widen the M50 the Westlink will still be a major bottleneck and it simply is not possible to build new motorways inside the M50.

It is time to admit that throwing up large numbers of 200 unit plus housing estates in Co Meath and servicing them with Motorways has failed and it is unfair for the rest of the country to subsidise one group of local developers.

Where is the regional balanced development, what happened to the National Spatial Strategy, the strategic planning guidelines and commitments on sustainable transport provision?

westtip · 16-07-2006 6:29pm

Diaspora wrote:

But where in the North West are you talking about?

http://www.nra.ie/Transportation/TrafficDataCollection/TrafficCounterData/html/N03-06.htm

This point of the N3 5kms South of Cavan never exceeds 10900 a day at any period. The problem is the squandering of €800m on the largest pork barrell project the Country has ever seen.

Couldn't agree more - problem is the M3 has become a political football and has to be built to "prove a point" - the planning of the motorway system using the M50 as an interchange on which the whole country (not just Leinster commuters) get stuck is a farce, with the biggest farce being that old chestnut debated much on these boards, the cashlink toll bridge - about which enough written already. The north west (Sligo and South Donegal and Leitrim) will be well served by the N4/M4 trunck route to Dublin, What the North West and border counties need is a cross country route of dual quality standard running from say Sligo, Enniskillen, Monaghan Town and then into a point around Dundalk, linking with the M1 this would give the BMW and NW region a better link to the main metro areas of Dublin and Belfast (you see the whole world does not revolve around Dublin). Of course this would require a great deal of cross border political co-operation which despite the quagmire up north is still a possibility, there would be no great hardship in travelling from Donegal or Derry, through the North, to swing east on this route and then travel down the M1, it would add a few miles to the total journey but travelling on dual carriageway/motorway will gaurentee free flow (until you get to the M50)- it would give an ideal link to the Airport for those from the northwest wishing to avoid the bottleneck of the M4/M50 interchange. Our motorway system just wasn't planned with a clean sheet, despite the opportunity to do so - instead everyone of the flabby white boys wanted a motorway running to their town, so the system overlaid the existing bycycle spoke radiating from Dublin. Better planning of the motorway system covering the south of the country could have provided a more comprehensive motorway system - with less actual miles of road being built, but again as ever bad planning and lack of vision prevailed.

Good Indo Editorial on Infrastructure(20/06/06)

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