Better equipment for the Gardai

Shield · 12-12-2007 10:45pm

That's 2 penalty points on your sense-of-humour licence.

JonAnderton wrote: »

yeah, the surefire burn out after a short while... Not really good for longterm illumination but as you say, maglites are old school... Can't hold a candle to the surefires

Do you see what I did there... Surefires, maglites, holding candles..oh, forget it...lol

the locust · 12-12-2007 11:21pm

"On leaving the college I was given a torch that has great light for any near objects but completely useless long distance. I had to buy the maglite in the shop for €50"

New recruits leaving Templemore are given LED Lenser torches which are proven to out perform the maglites any day, they are a big improvement and because they are LED not filament they don't use as much energy so the batteries last longer.

As with regards to the ASP your ass is covered to drive that thing through someone when swinging it. As you are aware the asp could easily smash a knee etc...

You are only in danger if your hit the head. You have to justify that the force used was proportionate, but you would only ever draw the baton on someone who was aggressive/non compliant anyways. If you broke a leg with the asp id say the member would be covered if the person was violent, its the governments choice to issue them - so be it.

My beef with the asp is that anyone who has any degree of combat training/martial arts could take it off the average guard in a tussle. And a dangerous criminal isn't going to care if they crack you over the head. The asp has no strap to hold it in the users hand.

Personally I'd be in favor of pepper spray over the ASP...
Its not as harmful as CS or some of the other really chemical sprays... But it still has a good effect,

Give a violent drugged up thug a zap of spray and they will actually become the Guards best friend - begging and pleading the police officer for water/help

JonAnderton · 12-12-2007 11:25pm

ASP make an end cap with a lanyard. The Met started issuing them out about 4 years ago. Handy, but a lot of people take them off anyway.

If you all really wanted one, might be worth enquiring with the powers that be about getting them.

CLADA · 12-12-2007 11:55pm

the locust wrote: »

Personally I'd be in favor of pepper spray over the ASP...
Its not as harmful as CS or some of the other really chemical sprays... But it still has a good effect,

Give a violent drugged up thug a zap of spray and they will actually become the Guards best friend - begging and pleading the police officer for water/help

Don't believe that for one minute my friend, a violent drugged up thug will fight through OC (Oleresin Capsicum) spray long enough to do you plenty of damage, the spray is an irritant not an incapacitant.

Stick with the ASP.

Write to Santa for a TASER......The real incapacitant.

Shield · 13-12-2007 12:19am

Let's not forget that it also has no effect on 1 in 10 people out there. Wouldn't it be just your luck to get that 1 in 10, who takes it off you, and then returns the favour? :eek:

CLADA wrote: »

Don't believe that for one minute my friend, a violent drugged up thug will fight through OC (Oleresin Capsicum) spray long enough to do you plenty of damage, the spray is an irritant not an incapacitant.

Stick with the ASP.

Write to Santa for a TASER......The real incapacitant.

TheNog · 13-12-2007 8:17am

psni wrote: »

Let's not forget that it also has no effect on 1 in 10 people out there. Wouldn't it be just your luck to get that 1 in 10, who takes it off you, and then returns the favour? :eek:

I'd have a quick count of the crowd around me and pray i am the one in the other ten

:rolleyes:

TheNog · 13-12-2007 8:49am

JonAnderton wrote: »

Looking for a good torch, try the Surefire range. A lot of us over here (London Met) have replaced the old maglites with them...

As for Airwave. If they didn't have the ability to make private person-to-person calls or phone calls, they'd be totally sh***

Had a look at the surefire webpage and christ they are expensive

What's this about Airwave being crap? Whats the story there? Is O2 still running the company? I want more info, more I TELL YE

JonAnderton · 13-12-2007 4:51pm

I'm a firearms officer and the sooner Taser gets rolled out to more officers, the better... it's a bloody great bit of kit.

As for Airwave, where do i start. I think O2 still ruin, I mean run, it. The handsets seem to loose signal for no apparent reason, The job (i think) have it set that if you press to talk at the same time as someone else, you just get a long tone (the old met radios, if ytou held it for too long, you could cut over someone who was blahing on. The volume is rubbish, the batteries last just long enough to last a shift if used regulary...

CLADA · 13-12-2007 6:25pm

JonAnderton wrote: »

I'm a firearms officer and the sooner Taser gets rolled out to more officers, the better... it's a bloody great bit of kit.

Agreed and I think the bad publicity it gets is down to inappropriate use. American cops tasering people for traffic offences...etc. Even the Vancouver incident could have been dealt with by physical restraint.

Its worth noting that there are practically no such incidents on this side of the Atlantic, probably due to it being mainly on issue to specialist units across Europe.

The regulations governing its use by police in England and Ireland in tandem with the ECHR should prevent inappropriate use of the device, so I can't see the Saturday night drunks getting a zap anytime in the future.

JonAnderton · 13-12-2007 6:52pm

Up until last Monday, only AFO's (Authorised Firearms Officers) were allowed to carry the Taser as it could only be deplyed to designated Firearms situations and the user must have conventional firearms cover....

The rules have changed and now Taser's can be deployed at any suitable incident and is now considered just another tactical option/use of force.

The TSG (public order unit) have had a load of blokes trained up in it so it's use will be more widespread.

Hopefully this will be a good move...

msg11 · 14-12-2007 5:47pm

Some proper cars, a decent radio system..

Mutz · 16-12-2007 1:31am

DMC2005 wrote: »

Thats close on 100mph .... What speed would you have liked to be going at?

Any faster sounds like a signifigant danger to other road users to me.....

What he means is that a mondeo handles better than a focus at high speeds, therefore safer at those speeds when the need arises.

Wishlist

Cars
Cars need to be made standard - forget the competition laws as its down to safety. Standardise to Mondeo/Volvo S40/Vectra 1.8litre minimum. Forget smaller cars as they are just not safe or capable for the job. They need to be specially fitted with:

> Durable and simple siren and light control (seriously - some of the panels are rediculous! The new ones are fairly good but some old ones are still around)
> Built in Radio Panel (not attached somewhere down by your leg or under the handbreak!)
> Sufficient Emergency Lighting (extra lights on the front grille, front and rear quarter panels - you can't have too many lights for some people!)
> Onboard Computer for doing person (including photo's) and registration checks (this would increase productivity for patrols and reduce workload and dependency on the station or controller and also reduce radio chatter)
> Mobile Phone (Extremely important for communications - in fact invaluable - have cradle included instead of signing phones out on each shift and having the phones loose in the car and then loosing them)
> Soil proof rear seat for prisoners (like what the cops in the US have and put a cage to seperate the prisoner from front passengers (this would also protect gardai from malicious claims and will alllow violent prisoners to calm down while in transit to garda stations)
> On Board camera front and rear to protect Gardai from bull**** complaints
> Introduce driving courses while on training on phase 3. Whats the problem with introducing this? Its such a big problem - everyone should be able to drive and use a pushbike.

Uniform
Get Rid of the Shirts, ties, trousers and maybe change them for polo shirts or polo necks and combat trousers. Running after scum can really chafe!

Collar burn on the neck, split trousers, ripped shirts and ties torm off! Its a bit impractical.

Organisation
> Fair and transparent promotion and interview proceedures. Nepotism is still very much alive in the organisation. In my opinion and it is probably shared, I have seen many excellent Gardai get disillusioned when an Officers son/daughter (who may or may not be better suited) is chosen in their place.
> Officers who aren't afraid to make decisions. What a breath of fresh air it is to meet a kick ass Sergeant, Inspector or Superintendent who is not afraid to get stuck in with the lads.
> Schduled fitness tests. As the job is extremely demanding, this should be introduced. Allowances should be introduced as an incentive.

Technology
> Email please, please, please. Eliminate paper!
> Make PULSE Web Based - its so slow as it has to load onto the pc each time from the central location.
> Individually issued radios to members (sometimes been forced to go without! Imagine getting into a hairy situation in that case)
> Every prisoner gets photographed and fingerprinted. It would help in solving burglaries/ stolen cars/ criminal damage etc. these can then be fed directly into a database from the station! The current system is a nighmare where the above need to be submitted seperately to HQ
>

Buildings/Stations
Move away from the traditional station. Office buildings are far more suited. Most stations are overcapacity. No Guard has their own desk. Each Officer should have their own desk and pc to work from.

Weapons
Not in favour of firearms, however, the asp and spray seem to work very well. Its a really big deal when a baton is used, so i think we're still a long way away from guns - thank the gods!

Criticisms Welcome!

DMC2005 · 16-12-2007 3:42pm

Is there not a bit of a double standard here?

I suggested that something like a focus should never be expected to hit speeds of 150kmph because its just not safe. Yet everyone seemed to disagree with me and think that there was no problem at all.

Yet on the other hand people seem to want more powerfull cars and cite safety as the reason.

Either its safe to reach 150kmph in a 1.4L focus, in which case we don't really need to get bigger cars, or its not safe, in which case these small cars should not be taken to such high speed.

If the real difference here is driver training, then faster cars will cause more problems than it will solve.

timmywex · 16-12-2007 5:50pm

mutz, i agree with your diagnosis all but the uniform, but whatever, the cars are a matter or urgency, and change pulse so a reason for accesing a file doesnt need to be put in every time, much easier if anpr is ought in or the on board computers idea above

metman · 16-12-2007 6:08pm

Mutz wrote: »

Technology
> Email please, please, please. Eliminate paper!
> Make PULSE Web Based - its so slow as it has to load onto the pc each time from the central location.
> Individually issued radios to members (sometimes been forced to go without! Imagine getting into a hairy situation in that case)
> Every prisoner gets photographed and fingerprinted. It would help in solving burglaries/ stolen cars/ criminal damage etc. these can then be fed directly into a database from the station! The current system is a nighmare where the above need to be submitted seperately to HQ
>

I'm horrified that not all prisoners have prints and photos taken. I'm guessing you don't take their DNA either? We use the livescan fingerprint system. Its computerised, no block and ink, and the set of prints are electronically sent to the Yard (I think it is... or Hendon) and you'll get a reply usually in about 15 minutes with confirmation as to identitiy if the persons prints are on file.

No personal issue radio, and going out with no radio??? I'd rather go out with no stick, cuffs, gas or stabby.

Pulse sounds like a load of rubbish. Our systems are web based and though a bit weary, handy enough to use.

Again, I'm stunned you don't have work email, how on earth.....

Disgraceful. The Government and Garda management should be ashamed of themselves.

TheNog · 17-12-2007 1:50pm

-The email system we have is the run of the mill Outlook but is not used for official correspondance.
- PULSE is a bit of a pain especially in the last couple of months its working so bloody slow.
- Fingerprints and photographs should be taken in all criminal acts no matter what the circumstances or age of the offender. Surely the god there is better procedures or systems for lifting fingerprints from metal objects. At local level it seems we cannot lift/identify fingerprints from any metal object.
- DNA should be taken as standard too.
- Get rid of the bloody ties. They are outdated and damn uncomfortable. White t-shirt underneath the shirt still looks good or as suggested by mutz, polar neck shirts.
- again 1.4l should only be assigned to city stations as speed and power is not always needed when going through traffic. All country stations should be provided with minimum 2l petrol cars.Diesels are alright but lack high rev usage therefore making them slower than petrol cars. No good if you are chasing a petrol car or motorbike.
- Air Support should be distributed around the country. At the moment we have 2 helos. At least one is based in Dublin, the other one I don't where it is based. They have a great set-up there with GPS mapping and actual maps for every part of the country. Thanks lads for showing me around.
- In car computer with access to PULSE, apnr (though maybe not every car ) and maps/directions for properties with monitored alarms.
- as above every property with monitored alarms should be mapped. It is a pain in the arse trying to find them when a panic/intruder alarm is set off.
- proper computer software for viewing/printing cctv. Seems that there are so many different types of software out there. In one instance I had to travel to three different stations to find someone that had the software just to view the footage.
- of course radios are a major issue.

The only thing preventing us getting proper equipment is money. Even though our annual budget is a billion euro it seems we need to spend even more than that just to drag us into the 21st century world of policing.

TheNog · 19-12-2007 8:40am

Found this which has some promise. We just need it put into practice

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/The%20fight%20against%20crime%20to%20be%20a%20top%20priority%20in%202008%20%E2%80%93%20Lenihan

Ultravid · 24-12-2007 2:20am

DMC2005 wrote: »

Is there not a bit of a double standard here?

I suggested that something like a focus should never be expected to hit speeds of 150kmph because its just not safe. Yet everyone seemed to disagree with me and think that there was no problem at all.

Yet on the other hand people seem to want more powerfull cars and cite safety as the reason.

Either its safe to reach 150kmph in a 1.4L focus, in which case we don't really need to get bigger cars, or its not safe, in which case these small cars should not be taken to such high speed.

If the real difference here is driver training, then faster cars will cause more problems than it will solve.

You don't seem to understand how cars work.

Doing 100mph in a Corsa is scary. The same speed in a Volvo V70 is a hell of a lot safer.

Also, doing 100mph in a Corsa is pushing the car to it's absolute limit, which is not safe nor sustainable, whilst a more powerful car will reach those speeds more easily, quickly, safely, and will be more controllable, with extra power in reserve.

It's safer to overtake and pursue other vehicles in a more powerful car. You can end the pursuit more quickly. You can catch up with the offender more quickly. You just won't be able to do that in a crappy 1 litre.

If people know the cops have good cars, they may be less likely to try and outrun the police as they know they will probably be caught.

TheNog · 24-12-2007 9:03am

DMC2005 wrote: »

Is there not a bit of a double standard here?

I suggested that something like a focus should never be expected to hit speeds of 150kmph because its just not safe. Yet everyone seemed to disagree with me and think that there was no problem at all.

Yet on the other hand people seem to want more powerfull cars and cite safety as the reason.

Either its safe to reach 150kmph in a 1.4L focus, in which case we don't really need to get bigger cars, or its not safe, in which case these small cars should not be taken to such high speed.

If the real difference here is driver training, then faster cars will cause more problems than it will solve.

I think you are missing the point. The scenario I mentioned earlier took place on a good, straight surface road with a Ford Focus. 150kph in a Focus is a bit scary because you can feel it in the steering plus the braking and handling is affected. However the 2l Mondeo can match that speed with much better handling and braking thus making it safer for the members and the public. Not all situations of course would this speed be safe in either the Mondeo or the Focus but in my scenario it was.
What we are trying to point out is the lack of power in gathering speed in the focus and the ability to sustain that speed is what can be dangerous and especially non effective in catching someone who does not want to be caught. Example of this is at a checkpoint you see a car turn around (happens often) and you give chase. The car you are trying to stop is doing say 80kph but because it has a lead on you,you must do 110kph - 120kph. The Focus is simply not up that and the car being chased would simply disappear from view.

Make no mistake, if you believe that Gardai do not or should not drive at such speeds at appropriate times then you do not realise what the job sometimes entails.

the locust · 29-12-2007 10:15pm

Better cars and better drivers!

Dont get me wrong the car course the official drivers are put through is very good.

But i'd guess more drivers are on Chiefs permission to drive and its another cutting of corners, because, bar doing passing their drivers test, i dont believe they've had much else driver training! Which is outrageous!

I'd call for better drivers. And agree with the arguements above for 2.0L cars especially in the countryside, and the outskirts of Dublin.

The inner city doesn't need 2.0 litre cars, but rather turbo cars with good suspension. I was in an Opel Vectra 1.9L CDTI and (although it was close to being a 2 litre) it was an absolute rocket in acceleration compared to the ford 1.4...

metman · 30-12-2007 1:48am

the locust wrote: »

Better cars and better drivers!

Dont get me wrong the car course the official drivers are put through is very good.

But i'd guess more drivers are on Chiefs permission to drive and its another cutting of corners, because, bar doing passing their drivers test, i dont believe they've had much else driver training! Which is outrageous!

I'd call for better drivers. And agree with the arguements above for 2.0L cars especially in the countryside, and the outskirts of Dublin.

The inner city doesn't need 2.0 litre cars, but rather turbo cars with good suspension. I was in an Opel Vectra 1.9L CDTI and (although it was close to being a 2 litre) it was an absolute rocket in acceleration compared to the ford 1.4...

On my OCU you are required to drive as a basic police driver for 6 months before you can apply for an IRV (incident response vehicle) driving course. This used to be a 3 week course but has been cut down to 2 weeks due to the amount of officers requiring driver training. This course teaches basic response driving on blues and twos. On completion of this course you are deemed fit to drive as a response driver. After another 6 months satisfactory driving you are eligible to apply for an Area Car course. This lengthier course is an advanced driving course that teaches advanced driving skills as well as pursuit management skills.

Here we use BMW 5 series and Vauxhall Vectras as Area Cars, though we're scrapping the Vectras as they're rubbish in comparison to the BMs.

the locust · 30-12-2007 10:52am

That sounds like a much better setup - you cant argue with BMW's

TheNog · 30-12-2007 4:27pm

In our station we used to have a vectra but many they didnt feel safe driving it at speed. I have seen many vectras at different stations. It begs the question:

Who approves these cars?

How are they tested?

We have a mondeo diesel which is a good car but the diesel lacks the revs on take off. A petrol car would be alot better

the locust · 30-12-2007 11:37pm

Found this on Wikipedia - 'Garda Siochana'

"...Garda patrol cars are usually identical to civilian vehicles however, higher performance cars are often bought, such as the Ford Mondeo 2.5 V6. Other models being bought in recent years include Saab 9-3, the Volvo S40 and the Renault Laguna II. High levels of collision protection are one of the reasons that led to the force to acquire vehicles such as the Saab 9-3, partly due to an increase in so called 'ramming' incidents involving Joyriders.

Undercover cars recently acquired by the Department of Justice for the Gardaí include: Subaru Forester 2.5XT, Ford Mondeo, Toyota Camry 2.2, Peugeot 407 and the new Opel Vectra.[citation needed] Other such Garda cars being supposedly introduced are the Skoda Octavia vRS[citation needed], and Opel Astra OPC[citation needed].

The motorway patrol division of the Traffic Corps owns a Mitsubishi Evo, a Subaru Impreza STi and has agreed to purchase three BMW M5[citation needed] to patrol the M1, M4, M7 & M50 motorways. Several models of offroad vehicle are also operated, including the Trooper, Jeep Cherokee and Nissan Navara. The traffic corps have also recently purchased new BMW 5 series for everyday use.

The Gardaí are also involved in the operation of cars transporting members of Government, Including the Mercedes S Class, E Class and Volvo S80."

I spotted/moved out of the way for a silver Toyota T-Sport last week with blue lights and sirens going. They are pretty much a chopped down compact lexus. I was quite surprised as i had no idea they had those.

Sully · 31-12-2007 3:45am

Mutz wrote: »

Durable and simple siren and light control (seriously - some of the panels are rediculous! The new ones are fairly good but some old ones are still around)

Were the old panels simply not a switch for the lights and a switch for the siren? Old fashioned. The new one seems to be a digital panel with various options?

Built in Radio Panel (not attached somewhere down by your leg or under the handbreak!)

Completely agree.

Sufficient Emergency Lighting (extra lights on the front grille, front and rear quarter panels - you can't have too many lights for some people!)

Seems most squad cars are coming with a lot of extra lights on the grill and sides. Unmarked and marked units.

Onboard Computer for doing person (including photo's) and registration checks (this would increase productivity for patrols and reduce workload and dependency on the station or controller and also reduce radio chatter)

Not going to happen. At least, not with this government!

Mobile Phone (Extremely important for communications - in fact invaluable - have cradle included instead of signing phones out on each shift and having the phones loose in the car and then loosing them)

They should pull in like everyone else, or have it on loudspeaker. There a hazzard on the road when on the phone. A new radio system should make this request pointless tho.

Soil proof rear seat for prisoners (like what the cops in the US have and put a cage to seperate the prisoner from front passengers (this would also protect gardai from malicious claims and will alllow violent prisoners to calm down while in transit to garda stations)

Most violent people are escorted in the van, which has this. The cars I thought were for minor arrests? But, I do agree - need a bigger car though.

On Board camera front and rear to protect Gardai from bull**** complaints

They have this in some question rooms in stations, but I cant see it being put in the cars.

ntroduce driving courses while on training on phase 3. Whats the problem with introducing this? Its such a big problem - everyone should be able to drive and use a pushbike.

Agreed.

Schduled fitness tests. As the job is extremely demanding, this should be introduced. Allowances should be introduced as an incentive.

Agreed.

> Email please, please, please. Eliminate paper!

Email isnt as secure, and can be easier to intercept. I agree, but the technology isnt really out there.

Make PULSE Web Based - its so slow as it has to load onto the pc each time from the central location.

Not a bad idea, but it would need to run on a decent server if its going to get heavy usage.

Individually issued radios to members (sometimes been forced to go without! Imagine getting into a hairy situation in that case)

Just a matter of lack of funding really.

Every prisoner gets photographed and fingerprinted. It would help in solving burglaries/ stolen cars/ criminal damage etc. these can then be fed directly into a database from the station! The current system is a nighmare where the above need to be submitted seperately to HQ

Isnt this being considered, but human rights activists are saying its a breach of the constution?

Move away from the traditional station. Office buildings are far more suited. Most stations are overcapacity. No Guard has their own desk. Each Officer should have their own desk and pc to work from.

Why would every officer need a desk?

Not in favour of firearms, however, the asp and spray seem to work very well. Its a really big deal when a baton is used, so i think we're still a long way away from guns - thank the gods!

Agreed, but think we need a better policing system so we have armed units on the road and available for backup.

TheNog · 01-01-2008 11:10am

In the country violent prisoners are put in the back of a patrol car where no van is available. In our town we have no van.

Emergency lights: Would agree with more lights which are more visible to traffic in front and also a better siren such as what the US and UK have when they approach slower traffic. I find that lots of traffic do not see or hear us when they are right in front of us.

On board PCs: is necessary but I don't think will happen. At the mo PULSE is slower than my dead grandmother and as almost as user friendly as your usual public incident offender

On board camera: whatever happened to the vascar system? I heard so much about it but never saw it?

Fitness: Always thought that personal fitness should be brought into it. Personally I don't have any type of fitness except for a bad one but it is a great idea. Maybe have the most senior lads exempt from it for a few years but the younger ones must follow guidelines.

Radios: Digital radios when they are launched should be issued personally to all members. Then the members themselves can account for all radios and their mishaps.

Desks: No need to have a desk for each member, just 1 pc for every 3 members and a printer for the unit to access when doing files.

Email: is the way forward for handyness sake and for the trees sake. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE TREES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DNA & fingerprints: fingerprints and photographs should be taken as a matter of course in all crimes no matter what. DNA should be taken for crimes such as criminal damage, UT and upwards.

Traditional stations: No more stations converted from houses, please. Stations should be more user friendly to the user than user friendly to the government bank balance.

All in all I feel that everyone feels that more money could be spent on the Gardai and our equipment but why is there not a path for us to suggest these changes or additions? It may be a case of splurging more money than ever in say 3 yrs to implement these changes but despite the maintenance, they can last a lifetime or at least a few years and improve our service greatly to the public.

The most questions I would like answered are these:

What dept. approves the cars?

What critirea are the cars approved?

What happened to the VASCAR system and the development from that system?

And how the hell do you split the quotes from a post like Sully has done above?

These are the Q's I want answered.

source · 01-01-2008 1:26pm

TheNog wrote: »

The most questions I would like answered are these:

TheNog wrote: »

What dept. approves the cars?

Finance i would assume

TheNog wrote: »

What critirea are the cars approved?

I think the only criteria on finances mind is which is cheaper

TheNog wrote: »

What happened to the VASCAR system and the development from that system?

haven't got a clue

TheNog wrote: »

And how the hell do you split the quotes from a post like Sully has done above?

and i think you need to press the multi quote button beside the quote button, either that or use the html tags.

TheNog wrote: »

These are the Q's I want answered.

and answered they have been, at least to the best of my ability

timmywex · 01-01-2008 2:18pm

id reckon the cameras in the cars idea is very realistic, ambulances have hadd them for a number of years, both in the cabin in the back and out the front of it

the locust · 01-01-2008 6:10pm

I believe its the Dept of Justice that orders all the cars and equipment on reccomendations from the AC at HQ

In the PSNI i know its a few of the Traffic and Close protection guys test and assess cars on a course for speed, handling, offensive defensive evasive driving etc and take reccomendations and reviews from the UK. Then they recommend stuff to the resources Chief Super who recommends it up the channels

Sully · 01-01-2008 7:18pm

TheNog; Its done manually. I just put quote tags around the text I wanted to quote.

([.QUOTE]TEXT TO BE QUOTED![./QUOTE])

Multi-Quote is to quote different posts, and is the button beside the main "Quote button". Its not used to split up one post into segments - thats done manually as described above using BBCode as HTML is disabled.

Better equipment for the Gardai

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