Shock Collars

It's true, I wasn't particularly conciliatory after having read 2 pages worth of posts basically accusing those of us who use ecollars of being cruel, abusive, lazy, incompetents who use the "tool of the devil".

Seriously, have you any idea how insulting that is to those of us who love our dogs and choose to spend a lot of time, effort and money carefully studying the proper use of ecollars, so we can give our dogs a lifetime of freedom to run off lead, and know that they are still under effective control?

Especially since this thread was started immediately after I had written lots of information, explanations, posted links to articles and videos to help show how these tools can be properly used. That just tells me that OP simply wasn't interested in finding out the truth, and probably didn't even bother her barney looking at the links I posted. If she had she might have realised that she has some thinking to do. Instead, all she wanted was to create a thread where she could see pages of people (the "your ilk" which I previously referred to) crying "Witch".

So did it make you feel better OP? To see all those people flocking to decry the tools of the Devil? Did you feel validated by that? Comfortably reassured that you won't after all have to face the distressing possibility that you may have been mistaken?

My last post was a bit offensive and I apologise. But it came following 2 pages of posts essentially levelling abuse at me (and my ilk), all from people who don't in fact understand what they're talking about.

Yes Helena, you're right that I don't condone someone buying an ecollar in a pet shop and slapping it on their dog with no training on how to use it properly. Proper training is essential when starting out with an ecollar (I would say the same thing about any training tool). But you're attacking the tool, when the problem is in fact the person using the tool. So you tar us all with the same brush.

I don't mind discussing the factual pros and cons of ecollars and their use, but what you've got here is a witch hunt.

Discodog wrote: »

As the owner of a chasing sighthound ( I have another that doesn't chase) I would love to be able to let the dog run off lead. I have never used an electronic collar on the dog but I have felt the shock from one . I am still researching but if I thought that two or three shocks could mean that the dog can enjoy running off lead could be a better option for the long term welfare of the dog & that's all that matters.

Another factor is that no matter how carefully a sighthound is walked there is always the possibility of an escape or leash slip. I would love to know that if ever that did happen that the dog would recall.

I have two retired greyhounds and both are trained to return to a whistle when off the lead. Now if they saw a cat or rabbit while off the lead it may be a different story, but if they see a person or another dog they will ignore it. Neither have ever been subjected to an electric collar and there is no need to use one to train a dog.

Like I said before it is a lazy alternative to proper training.

MistyCheese wrote: »

Well, I know I wouldn't like to get lemon juice in my eye!

It is not lemon juice, it is lemon scented air. Like what comes out of your glade air freshener. And it is a far kinder alternative than a shock collar for a lazy owner.

And if jimmyn was referring to a particular post of mine fair enough, but he wasn't, he had a go at me for others peoples posts.

That's true, I did. I've been reading back through this thread, and I see that the posts that hurt me the most were actually not from Helena. They were from other posters, Jenniebabz, and such. Helena, you got the brunt of it because you seemed to be spearheading the campaign against ecollars.

Your original post asking are they cruel and is it ever acceptable to use pain to teach, seemed to me to be a loaded question to generate anti-ecollar sentiment, never allowing for the possibility that proper ecollar training is not about using pain for compliance. This was my assumption, and if I was wrong in that, then I am truly sorry. I came here to inform, not to fight, but try to understand the frustration in those of us who use ecollars properly and face an onslaught of posts in every internet forum telling us how cruel and abusive we are. Only this week I was told I am too soft on my dog and need to get stricter on him!

Helena, I've been pretty upset myself the last couple of days knowing that I upset you. If you were genuinely searching for more information (it's so hard to tell these things on the internet), then I am sincerely sorry.

So on to business...

Peasant had a valid point before about avoiding bad associations. My experience is with remote training collars, not bark collars or fences, so I'll answer in that capacity.

Whenever a "shock" (I prefer the word "stim" - it's more accurate) is delivered to my dog, it is because I pressed a button on the remote. I alone have control over when my dog is stimmed. If a child or another dog comes along, I will not press the button. This is more of a problem when using old-fashioned high stim methods, not the modern low stim techniques, but why take the risk? I can make an exception on this if I know the dog is "collar literate", and knows what the stim means. The dog won't make a false association then.

Hmmm ...I wonder how all those shepherds, cattle drovers and flock guardians got their dogs to work with them before batteries were invented?

I never said an ecollar was necessary to train a dog. Dogs have been trained for a long time without them. Traditionally, choke collars etc would have been used. Sure they work. But in inexperienced hands (like most owners), they can injure a dog. You can't physically injure a dog with an ecollar. Even a prong collar is safer than a choke chain.

They had time to train their dogs properly, they had time to be with them 24/7, from puppyhood until they died

You know, I'm pretty jealous of anyone who has that kind of time these days. Most of us have to work for a living. That's how the doggie food gets paid for. I think most dog lovers would love to be with their dogs 24/7, from puppyhood until they died. Unfortunately, that's not possible for most of us.

Or worse ...where the dog is "sport" equipment, that gets zapped via remote control from pointless training excercise to pointless training excercise weekend after weekend in the hope of winning some even more pointless medal at the end of it all.

I think you do a disservice here to people who want to do things with their dogs. All dogs love having a "job" to do. In fact a lot of breeds really need that. I don't think any training exercise is pointless. It might seem pointless to us, but it's pretty important to a dog who needs to work. I think you'll find the dogs who get this treatment are happy, satisfied and well behaved. Take a border collie for example - if you don't work this breed they will go pure nuts on you out of frustration.

I think this thread has left the realm where anyone can ask genuine questions about how ecollars are properly used, without becoming an argument about humaneness and cruelty. I'm thinking of starting a new thread intended simply to answer questions to get the information out there for anyone who's interested in researching the method. No sparring contests. Anyone interested in that?

Jumpy wrote: »

I still like satsumas.

Unhelpful or off-topic posts are not needed.
Also Jimmy - I think this thread is fine now, there's been in the last page or so good ontopic posting so I see no reason to start another thread. People can ask questions in this one if they wish.

helena.ryan wrote: »

I know you don't want to enter into a debate but thats a very interesting point. When you talk about training, do you mean the usual obedience training? I know it's pretty apparant when your dog is learning something that they are enjoying it. You can nearly see the penny drop when they get the hang of something. But, I'm talking about simple "tricks" like finding something, or carrying a note (yes I know I'm that lazy we are trying to teach Harley to carry messages around the house). I get the impression you mean more intense work though.

Say for a pet, like mine, who is a very physical dog, what type of "working" do you think I should be providing? I would have thought that obedience in the house and some tricks, coupled with walks and hiking on weekends, would suffice. Now I'm wondering if we should be doing a bit more, like maybe getting him a backpack so he feels he has a job. Or, when walking, is his "job" to simply to walk with us and explore, or would he need more?

The above sounds very jumbled, I can't quite phrase my question properly. Hopefully you will know what I mean.

I think I do what I mean is, a dog is a creature, and like all creatures it needs a role in life or a purpose, whether that is to pass notes around the house, heard sheep on the farm, protect the home from intruders or simply go for a walk to earn it's food (how many people feed there dog before walking as opposed to after? i feed my two after as i feel this is more in keeping with nature, they go out on the hunt and then eat - they wouldn't eat then hunt would they?)

now if you are not teaching or training your dog something new at regular intervals, it's likely to get bored, like most of us humans who have to perform repetitive tasks