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Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

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Comments

  • #92
    big_drive
    Registered Users Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭big_drive


    Out of interest would the driver improve quality of shot? Better distance, etc.
    or what is it that actually makes them illegal?


  • #93
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 26,988 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    big_drive wrote: »
    Out of interest would the driver improve quality of shot? Better distance, etc.
    or what is it that actually makes them illegal?

    It has a slight higher trampoline effect on the face (C.O.R of 0.83 where the limit is new 0.8) so in testing the same swing will make it go further.

    Made sod all difference to me, I switched to the conforming version (free from Cobra) years ago and no noticeable difference whatsoever.


  • #94
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    Competition secretary got back to me this morning, he said it would indeed constitute disqualification, however he contacted my opponent and he has denied using the driver saying he had a Cobra headcover on a Titleist driver and the burden of proof is on me to show otherwise.

    Astonished at his complete lack of integrity,from what could have been dismissed as just not knowing the rules, learning from it and moving on he has now crossed the line to outright lying and cheating. Obviously there's no way that I can prove that he used the driver, I held it in my hands and know for a fact it was the non conforming Cobra so essentially it's now my word against his and the Comp secretary said he has no option but to let the result stand.


  • #95
    John Divney
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    What about the pro, did he not verify the situation? Why would somebody go off shouting over a headcover,

    The guy should be given a ban from competitions


  • #96
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    John Divney wrote: »
    What about the pro, did he not verify the situation? Why would somebody go off shouting over a headcover,

    The guy should be given a ban from competitions

    The pro wasn't there at the time it was just a member of staff, I don't think he showed them the driver so they couldn't verify it was the Cobra he just went in saying that I have accused him of cheating.


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  • #97
    John Divney
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    The pro wasn't there at the time it was just a member of staff, I don't think he showed them the driver so they couldn't verify it was the Cobra he just went in saying that I have accused him of cheating.

    But there is no logic to his claim if the member of staff verifies this. He went in saying he was accused of cheating over a conversation that would never have taken place , if as he claims it was only a headcover. You would have seen the driver and moved on.

    Tell them to talk to the guy who was working, that should be more than enough, on the balance of probabilities that he is a liar.


  • #98
    the lawman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭the lawman


    the lawman wrote: »
    I think its a bit harsh using language like that against a chap that we know nothing about, apart from what the OP says.

    For all we know he didn't know about the driver but his personality trait makes him lose his temper during confrontations. Or he is a liar and a cheat and he reacted like that because of this fact. Admittedly the evidence does lean towards the latter.

    Hard to know though and it would be good for balance if he came on here and had a right of reply.

    I regret this now! He sounds like a right piece of work.

    Real unlucky to have drawn him OP.


  • #99
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,846 ✭✭✭Russman


    Wow ! That's a big line for him to cross, outright dishonesty.

    I know I said I wouldn't have done what you did and that's still the case, but you were still right too.

    Hard to know what to do now Op, that would annoy me so much that out of sheer thickness I'd probably force the committee to convene some sort of hearing/meeting and have both parties give their side of the story and let them make a call on it. You'd almost certainly get no joy out of it, but maybe someone would ask the question, "why is this guy doing this if its not true ?" and certainly the membership would hear through the grapevine what's happening, rather than just hearing that you claimed x,y,z in a match.

    Purely if it was me, I'd be looking at another club for next year too.


  • #100
    ForeRight
    Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight


    Oh my word this guy is a disgrace!!!!

    He is slandering you in your club now by saying you have made up this allegation in order to win.
    All after he showed you the driver during the round, I'm absolutely stunned here.

    I do think the way this has got very messy is due to the fact that you handled it quite poorly at the time though unfortunately.

    However I 100% would not be letting this go now if I was you. This bloke is an out an out juanker of the highest order!!!!


  • #101
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    Competition secretary got back to me this morning, he said it would indeed constitute disqualification, however he contacted my opponent and he has denied using the driver saying he had a Cobra headcover on a Titleist driver and the burden of proof is on me to show otherwise.

    Astonished at his complete lack of integrity,from what could have been dismissed as just not knowing the rules, learning from it and moving on he has now crossed the line to outright lying and cheating. Obviously there's no way that I can prove that he used the driver, I held it in my hands and know for a fact it was the non conforming Cobra so essentially it's now my word against his and the Comp secretary said he has no option but to let the result stand.

    Don't want to be the one to say I told you so but....
    Wombatman wrote: »
    Could easily turn into a he said\she said in which case I wouldn't fancy OPs chances. My bet is that he turns up with a Cobra 440 sz at enquiry, one that doesn't say 'unlimited'on it.

    I would have gotten another club member as a witness before the guy left.


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  • #102
    ForeRight
    Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight


    I wouldn't have got another club member involved as it wouldn't be fair on them.

    I would have took a pic of his bag and driver on the sly and shipped it out now.
    He would be exposed as a liar and a cheat and should be expelled from the club.


  • #103
    Tiger Mcilroy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭Tiger Mcilroy


    That's pathetic for the man to blatantly lie about his driver..his rep will be in tatters regardless so his best defense was ignorance of the offense.


  • #104
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    John Divney wrote: »
    But there is no logic to his claim if the member of staff verifies this. He went in saying he was accused of cheating over a conversation that would never have taken place , if as he claims it was only a headcover. You would have seen the driver and moved on.

    Tell them to talk to the guy who was working, that should be more than enough, on the balance of probabilities that he is a liar.

    I don't know what was said to the member of staff other than that I accused him of cheating, I don't think he showed him the driver. He's friendly with that member of staff too so I wouldn't expect to be backed up by him even if he knew.


  • #105
    John Divney
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »
    That's pathetic for the man to blatantly lie about his driver..his rep will be in tatters regardless so his best defense was ignorance of the offense.

    Problem is his rep will be fine as he wasn't DQ'd, had no integrity to DQ himself, and now has basically slandered the OP.

    Unless the committee do something, which they seem to want no part of.


  • #106
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    Russman wrote: »
    Purely if it was me, I'd be looking at another club for next year too.

    Already looking, the only problem is there's at least one of him at every club in the country!


  • #107
    Ed Winchester
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Ed Winchester


    This has turned into a mess. The guy is clearly an arsehole who has no regard for the OP and is just covering his own cheating ass by lying. Hard to see an positive outcome for the OP even though he's 100% in the right.


  • #108
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Disgraceful behaviour. I would be confronting the guy ASAP. Would not accept the ruling without a massive brouhaha. Get him in in front of competition committee with you there also.

    Surely people have played with him before and have seen the Cobra driver. He is no doubt attached to it and will be loath to give it up, so will probably play with it again.

    Do you have his phone number?


  • #109
    big_drive
    Registered Users Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭big_drive


    Maybe another club member who has played with him recently will hear about this and have noted that he was using a cobra driver when playing with them. That wouldn't guarantee he was using it in this match but it's unlikely he would have changed it.

    It's more his attitude and behaviour that would bug me, using the driver wouldn't overly upset me


  • #110
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,846 ✭✭✭Russman


    Wombatman wrote: »
    Get him in in front of competition committee with you there also.

    Definitely, I'd get the whole thing on record, the committee, to be fair to them, probably won't be able to rule in your favour, but I'd be so stubborn, I'd make sure the story gets out and force him to lie to the whole committee. If winning a p0xy internal club match means that much to him, f--k him !
    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    Already looking, the only problem is there's at least one of him at every club in the country!

    I hear ya, but at the same time I'd like to think not (naively !). Or at least that you wouldn't get drawn against them in a match !


  • #111
    Paddy Constable
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25 ✭Paddy Constable


    Have sympathy for the OP..but there is no way he can win on this one !

    Speaking personally I don't believe that the driver in question would makedly improve the performance of the avg handicap golfer.

    The guy in question seems a right awquard customer and there is no doubt that he is now telling outright lies.

    Question is ..is all the hassle the OP is going through worth winning a round in a club matchplay ?


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  • #112
    Ed Winchester
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Ed Winchester


    Paddy Constable wrote: »
    Have sympathy for the OP..but there is no way he can win on this one !

    Speaking personally I don't believe that the driver in question would makedly improve the performance of the avg handicap golfer.

    The guy in question seems a right awquard customer and there is no doubt that he is now telling outright lies.

    Question is ..is all the hassle the OP is going through worth winning a round in a club matchplay ?

    If he lets it go now it will reflect badly on the OP in the eyes of the membership.


  • #113
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users Posts: 2,884 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    Competition secretary got back to me this morning, he said it would indeed constitute disqualification, however he contacted my opponent and he has denied using the driver saying he had a Cobra headcover on a Titleist driver and the burden of proof is on me to show otherwise.

    Astonished at his complete lack of integrity,from what could have been dismissed as just not knowing the rules, learning from it and moving on he has now crossed the line to outright lying and cheating. Obviously there's no way that I can prove that he used the driver, I held it in my hands and know for a fact it was the non conforming Cobra so essentially it's now my word against his and the Comp secretary said he has no option but to let the result stand.


    Seen that coming to be honest!


  • #114
    ForeRight
    Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight


    Paddy Constable wrote: »
    Have sympathy for the OP..but there is no way he can win on this one !

    Speaking personally I don't believe that the driver in question would makedly improve the performance of the avg handicap golfer.

    The guy in question seems a right awquard customer and there is no doubt that he is now telling outright lies.

    Question is ..is all the hassle the OP is going through worth winning a round in a club matchplay ?


    I think the behaviour of the lying cheat would make it worth while to be honest.
    If
    I'd nearly bet that this guy already has a reputation of being an arsehole in the club already. How he reacted to the news from OP in the middle of their round isn't normal behaviour IMO and now he slanders OP on top of it.

    If someone gave me that news in a match my reaction would be "ok so, we will finish the game out and get a ruling at the end"

    Like any query in a match really. His reaction of going nuts and trying to turn the tables on OP saying he was being called a cheat just proves that this guy knew too well he was in the wrong before a ball was hit!
    He deserves to be made a show of in front of the whole club.

    Let him be the one who ends up leaving the club and not the OP.


  • #115
    scotchy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭scotchy


    Been following this thread with interest.

    I’m a pay and play golfer, don’t play in competitions etc.

    Anyway, I have one of these clubs at home, and while getting it re-gripped in McGurks two years ago I was told it was non-conforming (of course not till after they’d re gripped it and charged me :rolleyes:).

    I haven’t used it since.

    I find it hard to believe that a club member and regular competition player would not know that he is using a non-conforming club.

    .

    💙 💛 💙 💛 💙 💛



  • #116
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,846 ✭✭✭Russman


    On reflection, if he manages to get it to a committee hearing, he may (a small may) get some joy in terms of vindication, depending on the make up of the committee - are they his friends. Might there be a committee member who wants to dig a little at this and get to the bottom of it ?

    If the staff member in the shop at least acknowledges that there was a dispute and both players came in to find the pro, yer man's argument of having a titleist driver under the headcover simply doesn't stand up - why, if that was the case, would he not just say "I'm not even using a Cobra driver, here, look, its a Titleist ?"

    Op, I hate to say it and don't want to be overly dramatic as I'm totally on your side, but you're in all likelihood finished with that club. Damned if you do and damned if you don't at this stage. If you push it, chances are the finding will be along the lines of "its one person's word against another's, we can't make a ruling". If you don't push it, yer man could well be telling people "......do you know what Joe tried to do when I beat him in the matchplay ?"

    He's not on the Committee himself is he ? That would really top it off !
    Hard to believe that he's brazen enough to basically say "prove it" without thinking his strategy/defence, and the holes in them, through .


  • #117
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    Russman wrote: »
    On reflection, if he manages to get it to a committee hearing, he may (a small may) get some joy in terms of vindication, depending on the make up of the committee - are they his friends. Might there be a committee member who wants to dig a little at this and get to the bottom of it ?

    If the staff member in the shop at least acknowledges that there was a dispute and both players came in to find the pro, yer man's argument of having a titleist driver under the headcover simply doesn't stand up - why, if that was the case, would he not just say "I'm not even using a Cobra driver, here, look, its a Titleist ?"

    Op, I hate to say it and don't want to be overly dramatic as I'm totally on your side, but you're in all likelihood finished with that club. Damned if you do and damned if you don't at this stage. If you push it, chances are the finding will be along the lines of "its one person's word against another's, we can't make a ruling". If you don't push it, yer man could well be telling people "......do you know what Joe tried to do when I beat him in the matchplay ?"

    He's not on the Committee himself is he ? That would really top it off !
    Hard to believe that he's brazen enough to basically say "prove it" without thinking his strategy/defence, and the holes in them, through .

    I don't think Cobra was even mentioned to the staff member, I think he just said I accused him of using a non conforming driver.

    He's not on the Committee but he would play with committee members regularly and be a part of that circle.

    Initially I thought he was going to say fair enough we'll check after the round, then after his outburst and behaviour after the match I thought he'll calm down when he gets home and probably check online see I was right and apologise....I didn't see this coming at all.


  • #118
    moycullen14
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭moycullen14


    Jeez, I'm breaking out in a sweat reading this.

    I pulled a guy up on a rule a few years ago in a scratch cup. He claimed ball was lost in GUR, I claimed no evidence. He got thick, I got thick. Thankfully, ball was found (well away from GUR, of course) and nothing more was said or done. I've often thought that it could have got very messy - your word/my word sort of thing.

    Since then I'd be very slow to pull someone up on infringements - especially if there is a hint of deliberate cheating - which there seems to have been in the OPs case.

    The problem is that if the 'cheat' is caught, they are like a cornered rat and will fight back. The guy in the OP felt that he was damned anyway because if it got around the club that we was using a non conforming driver, no-one would believe that it was a genuine error. Better for him to go on the offensive, hence the viciousness totally out of proportion to the claim.

    The other reason not to get involved is that there is very little chance of 'due process' being followed if it gets to a hearing. Friendships, laziness, vendettas, 'anything for a quiet life' all come in to play and the chances of the 'right' conclusions being drawn are remote.

    I know in our club the outcome of a hearing would depend as much on the relative popularity of the protagonists as the rights & wrongs of the situation.

    Does the OP now wish he had said nothing? Awful situation to be in - especially as you have no proof of an offence.

    If there is a lesson to be learned, it's that you have to make sure you have a watertight case before you even think of implying someone is cheating .. and even then I'd think twice about it.


  • #119
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    Kace wrote: »
    Some additional opinions on a similar situation with the exact same driver here -golfwrx.com/forums/topic/728707-opponent-using-non-conforming-driver/

    Very similar, he probably dealt with it better than I in leaving it until after the round though.


  • #120
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    moycullen14 wrote: »
    Does the OP now wish he had said nothing? Awful situation to be in - especially as you have no proof of an offence.

    No I'm glad I did, even if he's going to lie his way out of it he won't be using that club again. I never accused him of cheating, I merely pointed out that his club was non conforming and so against the rules, he was the only one using the word 'cheat'. If he wants to spread that to the club and people ostracize me for it then I'd happily walk out of the club.


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  • #121
    Montgolfier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭Montgolfier


    I would respond to the committees decision. Explain that you had the driver in your hand and you can tell the difference between the two.
    Tell them that if you don't get satisfaction you will report this to the GUI.
    I would also name and shame this liar, who probably has connections on the committee.
    If he had a titlest driver he could have vindicated himself in the pro shop? He didn't, he knew the accusation but chose not to prove it. Instead of or as well as roaring and shouting.

    Put that in your response.


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