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ACTA - International SOPA, Ireland & EU signed 26th Jan

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    #62
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    ACTA arrives (still bad, but a tiny bit better)

    Some info on ACTA from a year ago from Ars Technica (also good stuff on SOPA and PIPA on there as well).

    The fact that this treat was largely done in secret, is imho an affront to democracy. Also, I think the action against Megaupload, shows how these extra laws are not needed in anyway shape or form. Existing laws are more than enough. IMHO, some of them need to be rolled back, as I feel a lot of fair user rights have been lost in recent years.


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    #63
    tryde
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭tryde


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
    Just read the bit until contents table if you don't want to get into details.


    Sadly if ACTA goes through, even wiki-tan might end up in a graveyard. ;<


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    #64
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Nate--IRL-- wrote: »
    Total Censorship or Illegal downloading - Control of information, or freedom of information (1's and 0's in this case) that is the choice ultimately. Which would you feel more comfortable with?

    Nate

    Is this like how a person can only be either a Facist or a Communist as there are no shades of political opinion between those two extremes?


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    #65
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    JustinDee wrote: »
    You're answering your own questions here.
    Of course its illegal. Put yourself in the position of someone holding copyright to intellectual property. If some anonymous little internetty is downloading their material for free without permission to do so, someone is culpable. Who? Its up to the downloader and provider to prove innocence, not the other way round.
    Who says that Google as a search engine is culpable along the line?
    No I didn't answer any of those questions. Someone may be culpable for downloading or hosting the illegal content in the end, but the law must be written in a clear and comprehensive way to describe exactly what it is that is illegal.

    So, out of all my questions there:
    Should hosting .torrent files of copyrighted content be illegal?

    Since there is effectively not that much difference between a .torrent and a http link, should providing a link to a copyrighted file be illegal?

    What about linking to a web page that links to a copyrighted file? etc. etc.; where do you draw the line?

    Google is the biggest provider of links to copyrighted material in the world (such that it is practically impossible for them to police their content); should that be illegal? Should Google be blocked?

    Which of these should be illegal, and which not? Should they all be illegal? This is what the law needs to explicitly define.

    If you think that it should be illegal to link to web pages that contain copyrighted material, then Google must be culpable.
    JustinDee wrote: »
    Therefore just let the illegal downloading continue as is. Great.
    Again we return to the "something must be done" argument, as I said in my last post on this (which you did not answer):
    Your previous post implies, in relation to piracy, that you think "something must be done"; if that's accurate, what exactly do you think should be done? (and will that solution actually stop piracy? will it also harm free speech or threaten censorship in some way?)


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    #66
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Sorry to be lazy but is there anywhere with a decent break-down of the act without all the melodramatics
    This is a decent breakdown of it:
    https://www.eff.org/issues/acta


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    #67
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Sorry to be lazy but is there anywhere with a decent break-down of the act without all the melodramatics

    The European Commission page on ACTA is here and it includes a copy of the final text of the agreement on it.


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    #68
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    wes wrote: »
    ACTA arrives (still bad, but a tiny bit better)

    Some info on ACTA from a year ago from Ars Technica (also good stuff on SOPA and PIPA on there as well).

    The fact that this treat was largely done in secret, is imho an affront to democracy. Also, I think the action against Megaupload, shows how these extra laws are not needed in anyway shape or form. Existing laws are more than enough. IMHO, some of them need to be rolled back, as I feel a lot of fair user rights have been lost in recent years.

    That's probably the most useful of the three most recently mentioned sources. The EFF one is pretty out of date, and the Commission one is at least partly written in response to the EFF one.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #69
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Ya, it is probably worth updating the first post with the most up to date links (thanks for doing that for me yesterday btw); I will try to find the time to collect together a bunch of up to date links from through the thread, and a bit of a news update, for addition to the first post, when I have time in a bit.


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    #70
    Sabre0001
    Registered Users Posts: 7,499 ✭✭✭Sabre0001


    It would be very interesting if Seán Sherlock and The Labour Party didn't have the rights to use the YouTube footage on his page - http://www.seansherlock.ie/blog/

    🤪



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    #71
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Its up to the downloader and provider to prove innocence, not the other way round.

    What.
    The.
    F*CK?! :confused::confused:

    Burden of proof is on the accused? Democracy, alive and well in 2012 I see :eek:


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    #72
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    If I don't pirate anything, camcord films, have illegally downloaded files on me, etc, etc ... how will ACTA affect me?

    Some posters already addressed this but I'll add some more examples.

    Are you on facebook? Ever write out song lyrics, post a video, share a funny website or picture with some friends? If ACTA comes in, you will be a criminal for doing all these things. Even if it's not in public. Even if you just send your friend a link by private mail or even regular email. That will be a crime.

    Sites like StumbleUpon won't be able to exist. Hell, even Google might not be able to exist.

    Has something ever broken in your house, and you turned to Youtube or Google to find out what's wrong with it/how to repair it? You won't be able to do that anymore.

    This law will do nothing to prevent piracy, but it will do everything possible to criminalise free speech. If that's not 1984 in internet form, then hell I don't know what is.

    Voltaire once said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Of course, even quoting him in order to make a point could see me branded a criminal.

    The free flow of information and exchange of knowledge scares the hell out of people in power. People today are more knowledgeable than ever before, and with the internet at our fingertips almost anything is possible to achieve.

    It must be protected.


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    #73
    nacho66
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭nacho66


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Its up to the downloader and provider to prove innocence, not the other way round.

    I say you are an idiot... prove you are not


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    #74
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Nate--IRL-- wrote: »
    Total Censorship or Illegal downloading - Control of information, or freedom of information (1's and 0's in this case) that is the choice ultimately. Which would you feel more comfortable with?

    Nate

    There has always been illegal copies of movies and tv shows. The only difference now is anyone at anytime can get access to them. But I have little sympathy for the movie and tv companies as they sought to keep an iron fisted control of their product. The problem was the technology had moved on and they couldn't keep the control they once had. The obvious move at that point was to embrace the technology to their advantage but instead they still sought control. The idea that all these downloads are lost revenue to them is laughable. I think we all know a lot of people who download and stream extensively but we also know they would not actually watch the majority of these downloads if they were paying for them. Well outside a netflix type model anyway.

    We have netflix in Ireland for a few weeks but years ago we could and should have had access to reasonably priced paid for services, no reason there couldn't have been dozens of these companies by now.

    The horse has bolted from their stable and they are trying to lock down the entire county and make everyone suffer restrictions due to their poor choices. There is a middle ground to be had here but these draconian measures need to be stopped to allow that to happen.


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    #75
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    BTW, if megaupload and megavideo can turn hundreds of millions in ad and subscription revenue every year, it's pretty obvious that movie companies could make the same by streaming stuff for free just like megavideo did, no?


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    #76
    Nate--IRL--
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    View wrote: »
    Is this like how a person can only be either a Facist or a Communist as there are no shades of political opinion between those two extremes?

    I was trying to highlight the absurdity of Justin's viewpoint. You will never get rid of Piracy online.

    Nate


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    #77
    Sabre0001
    Registered Users Posts: 7,499 ✭✭✭Sabre0001


    Here is a video regarding why you shouldn't fear ACTA and a reddit link...Curious to see people's opinions.



    http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/or8ag/ive_read_the_final_version_of_acta_heres_what_you/

    🤪



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    #78
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    I'm really divided about this anti-piracy legislation.

    On one hand I think that copyright infringement is an inherently 'bad thing';but incursions into privacy, net neutrality, freedom of speech and the potential of collateral damage to innocent organisations is something to be taken seriously, however.

    It doesn't sit well with me though when anti-ACTA protesters say "it's not theft; just copying!".

    Personally I think that something like Youtube has a good balance right now: recent high-budget movies are just not available for illegal download, but low-budget stuff from ages ago is easily available (try finding Avatar versus the Evil Dead 2 as a good comparison). I.e. things that have a high value are policed but valueless things well... aren't.


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    #79
    WAndyz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭WAndyz


    Not sure if this has been posted but should be...



    If you oppose any of the recent copyright laws, please follow what it says on this thread.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/SOPA/comments/ot6o7/irish_people_who_can_we_contact_about_acta_ie_meps/


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    #80
    nacho66
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭nacho66


    There was an interview with a popular polish musician. He said, he never knew about ACTA until 2 days ago. There was no consultations, discussion or even notification from his label regarding this. This is a prove that the only entities that would have any benefits are media corporations (labels, publishers, lawyers), not artists. He also said that even tho average pay of popular musician is naturally higher than average pay in a given country, it's still less than 15% of the income from the product


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    #81
    Mollywolly
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭Mollywolly


    I am trying to earn a living online because of the scarcity of jobs here and, if this is pushed through, then it's not going to help me one bit.

    I'm not a political activist in any shape or form - far from it - but this and the recent SOPA affair in the US has shifted my a$$ into gear. Last week I wrote to our boys in the Dail asking what their views were on SOPA, and got no reply - no surprise there then!

    This week it's the turn of my MEP's and what they think about ACTA. Let's see if I hear anything from them before Thursday comes around.


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    #82
    Lilithis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭Lilithis


    It is not only about internet but the freedom of speach. According to ACTA if you buy a book and you like it a lot and you give that book to your friend for him to read it is a crime. If you quote any neewspaper or anyone famus without buying a rights to quote it is a crime. If you post on fb your fav song it is a crime, if you quote your fav song in public it is a crime.If you post a picture on internet and if the background is any poster it is a crime.
    That is why there is so much going on in Poland to stop guvernement.
    And yes the webpages where takne down all along weekend and monday.

    And that is what happend in Denmark https://forum.suprbay.org/showthread.php?tid=111703


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    #83
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    It doesn't sit well with me though when anti-ACTA protesters say "it's not theft; just copying!".

    Well a key part of the problem is that content providers are not providing the services people want. I mean, look at Spotify. Brilliant idea, cuts a whole lot of piracy out because it gives free (or cheap) access to music. The problem? It's not global, it's country specific (unless you use VPN and other workarounds). This means, I as an Irish person look at friends of mine in the UK and see them getting free ad supported access to whatever music they want and ask why the hell should I have to pay for it? Don't mention Youtube, the audio quality is shocking. Ditto digital downloads. It is more expensive for me to buy classical music from download sites than it is for me to buy the CDs from Amazon or whatever. This makes zero economic sense and is inconvenient for me on top of this. The latter makes me less happy about buying music because I feel like I'm being ripped off when I do (except with classical CDs because you can get such good bargains from some labels, but I digress).

    Ditto films/TV, we just got Netflix and it's pretty crap. I mean, I can get a lot of films and TV through UPC and save it to my DVR for a pittance compared to the cost of streaming/buying even one TV series off iTunes. I mean, I'm sorry but I refuse to pay €30 extra for something just because I want to view it in a non-standard way. Meanwhile I can pay 12 Euro a month to see every concert live from the Berliner Philharmonic online and have access to over 140 concerts in their archive. All streamed at 320kbs AAC and HD video quality at best with lower quality for people with poorer internet. Guess whose concerts you don't find up for download very often even though it'd be relatively trivial to copy and distribute them? Ditto bands up on bandcamp where you can buy an album in any format for $6, preview tracks in full before buying! and the money goes directly (for the most part) to the artist.



    Piracy is created precisely because the services people want aren't provided. Give good Netflix/Spotify style coverage in a country and your average person will stop downloading stuff illegally. Don't give it and don't be surprised if everyone is downloading. Laws like this one are idiotic, they a) don't work and b) miss the point. We're slowly seeing a movement towards reasonable services being provided but it's very, very slow. The core issue is, there will always be ways around this, people will learn them and new even more draconian laws will have to be enacted. Or they can just provide people content in a way that's convenient and cheap and get back all those sales. Piracy is not the issue in computer games that it is in music and films, why? Steam (the digital delivery platform). Regular sales, you can pick up games very cheap during seasonal sales, online catalogue of all your games, play your games on any PC anywhere etc. I never pirate computer games because the industry has given me everything I wanted and it is the same for an awful lot of people, though you will still always get people pirating if it's possible.


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    #84
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    BTW, if megaupload and megavideo can turn hundreds of millions in ad and subscription revenue every year, it's pretty obvious that movie companies could make the same by streaming stuff for free just like megavideo did, no?

    Myself and Nesf have said something similar. Companies are making many millions from file downloads which you cannot get at a reasonable price from the actual media companies. If I had access to the shows I watch from a good online source I would happily pay for a netflix type service, never-mind get it for nothing. Downloading illegally often means watching poor quality content and having slow connections. I just don't see what is so difficult for them to understand.


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    #85
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    nesf wrote: »
    Piracy is created precisely because the services people want aren't provided. Give good Netflix/Spotify style coverage in a country and your average person will stop downloading stuff illegally. Don't give it and don't be surprised if everyone is downloading. Laws like this one are idiotic, they a) don't work and b) miss the point. We're slowly seeing a movement towards reasonable services being provided but it's very, very slow. The core issue is, there will always be ways around this, people will learn them and new even more draconian laws will have to be enacted. Or they can just provide people content in a way that's convenient and cheap and get back all those sales. Piracy is not the issue in computer games that it is in music and films, why? Steam (the digital delivery platform). Regular sales, you can pick up games very cheap during seasonal sales, online catalogue of all your games, play your games on any PC anywhere etc. I never pirate computer games because the industry has given me everything I wanted and it is the same for an awful lot of people, though you will still always get people pirating if it's possible.

    So basically piracy is the fault of the distributor rather than the tightarse stealing stuff they don't want to pay for?
    Price is only a part of the equation. As long as one region releases a series or movie on DVD earlier than another or issues a different CD version to another, there will always be theft.
    Its all their fault in the end.


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    #86
    nacho66
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭nacho66


    http://stopsopaireland.com

    Why did they call it SOPA Ireland? That's not the name of the document. It's misleading. Also petitions will do s***. ACTA subject must make national headlines


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    #87
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Sabre0001 wrote: »
    Here is a video regarding why you shouldn't fear ACTA and a reddit link...Curious to see people's opinions.



    http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/or8ag/ive_read_the_final_version_of_acta_heres_what_you/


    This video kind of misses the point though. Besides the whole fact that this was drafted in near secrecy and debated without input from the public (which leaves a very sour taste in my mouth), there's also the rather worrying loosely worded nature of ACTA. If it ends up meaning that we're all going to start implementing our own severe SOPAs then it's a very bad thing.


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    #88
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    JustinDee wrote: »
    So basically piracy is the fault of the distributor rather than the tightarse stealing stuff they don't want to pay for?
    Price is only a part of the equation. As long as one region releases a series or movie on DVD earlier than another or issues a different CD version to another, there will always be theft.
    Its all their fault in the end.

    You'll always get tightarses refusing to buy stuff. But a lot of it comes down to convenience and reasonable pricing. So long as we have massively different prices and services for different geographical regions we will have a lot of piracy. They're trying to segment a market that no longer has serious boundaries any more.

    e.g. look at iTunes, even though it's not cheap it stopped a fair amount of privacy because it's convenient and the quality of the files is good. It's not about money a lot of the time but convenience for people.#

    Edit: I'm talking about causal factors and ways to fix this rather than whose fault it is. The genie is out of the bottle and we've been "pirating" for generations, I mean, do you have any idea how much music I had copied on cassette tapes as a teenager? It's just an awful lot easier to do now and doesn't require your mate to own the CD.


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    #89
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    nacho66 wrote: »
    http://stopsopaireland.com

    Why did they call it SOPA Ireland? That's not the name of the document. It's misleading. Also petitions will do s***. ACTA subject must make national headlines

    agreed


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    #90
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    JustinDee wrote: »
    So basically piracy is the fault of the distributor rather than the tightarse stealing stuff they don't want to pay for?
    Price is only a part of the equation. As long as one region releases a series or movie on DVD earlier than another or issues a different CD version to another, there will always be theft.
    Its all their fault in the end.

    I could steal Football Manager 12, but Steam makes it so convenient for me to buy it/play it/update it etc etc, I buy it off them. The same can't be said for music right now.

    I could also illegally download shows like skins, but 4oD is so handy to use because you get high quality streams with only a couple of ads that I would say Channel 4/E4's shows aren't even affected by illegal downloads. The companies who claim to be affected need to turn around and take a look at their archaic business strategies.


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    #91
    nacho66
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭nacho66


    AdamD wrote: »
    I could steal Football Manager 12, but Steam makes it so convenient for me to buy it/play it/update it etc etc, I buy it off them. The same can't be said for music right now.

    I could also illegally download shows like skins, but 4oD is so handy to use because you get high quality streams with only a couple of ads that I would say Channel 4/E4's shows aren't even affected by illegal downloads. The companies who claim to be affected need to turn around and take a look at their archaic business strategies.

    True. true. Steam made me go away from downloading games in the past. It even made me go away from buying boxed versions in stores, unless it requires registration on steam (or is not available on steam at all). However problem of not having demo versions of games still encourages to download in order to test before purchase


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