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Living abroad: right to vote in next referendum

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    #122
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    I thought we already turned things over to Berlin after the bailout:)
    That would be the popular view held by those with literacy problems, but in reality we were essentially forced to comply with certain conditions in return for money for a temporary period, so no, not quite the same.
    eire4 wrote: »
    We have turned over some over some of that decision making power to the EU over the years with various different treaties. Do you think we should leave the EU because outsiders are making decisions for us?
    We did it too when we joined the UN - should we leave that too? Maybe we should just refuse to sign any more treaties.


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    #123
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    That would be the popular view held by those with literacy problems, but in reality we were essentially forced to comply with certain conditions in return for money for a temporary period, so no, not quite the same.

    We did it too when we joined the UN - should we leave that too? Maybe we should just refuse to sign any more treaties.





    I guess the smiley face I used was not enough of an indicator that I was making a little joke!


    Yes we did when we joined the UN I agree with you. No I do not think we should leave the UN and I am happy for us to be in the EU also. Our membership of both has been a positive for us overall I feel as I believe also would voting rights for Irish born citizens living abroad be also.


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    #124
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    eire4 wrote: »
    No I do not think we should leave the UN and I am happy for us to be in the EU also. Our membership of both has been a positive for us overall I feel as I believe also would voting rights for Irish born citizens living abroad be also.
    Non-sequitur. Our membership of the EU and of the UN is positive because of pooled sovereignty; what we give away, we get back in clearly-defined ways.

    You can't just argue that votes for ex-pats would be good for the country because EU membership is good for the country. You need to explain that votes for ex-pats would be good for the country because <insert tangible and quantifiable benefit here>.


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    #125
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Non-sequitur. Our membership of the EU and of the UN is positive because of pooled sovereignty; what we give away, we get back in clearly-defined ways.

    You can't just argue that votes for ex-pats would be good for the country because EU membership is good for the country. You need to explain that votes for ex-pats would be good for the country because <insert tangible and quantifiable benefit here>.



    Good point and I agree with your analysis on our EU and UN membership and its benefits overall to Ireland.


    I was not not making an argument that votes for Irish born citizens living abroad would be a good for Ireland because EU membership overall has been good for Ireland.


    I was responding to Godge's not wanting "outsiders" having a say when he was referencing the 800,000 Irish born citizens currently living abroad by pointing out with the EU as an example this is something we already do as do most countries to greater or lesser extents.


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    #126
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    eire4 wrote: »
    Good point and I agree with your analysis on our EU and UN membership and its benefits overall to Ireland.


    I was not not making an argument that votes for Irish born citizens living abroad would be a good for Ireland because EU membership overall has been good for Ireland.


    I was responding to Godge's not wanting "outsiders" having a say when he was referencing the 800,000 Irish born citizens currently living abroad by pointing out with the EU as an example this is something we already do as do most countries to greater or lesser extents.

    You still haven't been able to point to one possible benefit to the country from having emigrants voting (other than the arrogant assumption that emigrants are more intelligent and better informed than those of us left behind)


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    #127
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    Godge wrote: »
    You still haven't been able to point to one possible benefit to the country from having emigrants voting (other than the arrogant assumption that emigrants are more intelligent and better informed than those of us left behind)



    Godge the last time you made these kind of insulting remarks (backward was the word you used that time) I made it very clear that that I did not subscribe to that opinion. In fact as I said before I think quite the opposite is the case. Given our small economy and population I think we as a country have done very well overall. To use the cliche we have punched well above our weight. I think Ireland has many very talented and intelligent people who have contributed much to Irish society in many different fields not just economically. If you feel otherwise that is your opinion and your of course free to take that view point but personally I do not agree with that view.


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    #128
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    Godge the last time you made these kind of insulting remarks (backward was the word you used that time) I made it very clear that that I did not subscribe to that opinion.
    You're taking the piss at this stage. What Godge posted in no way constitutes an ad hominem by any stretch of the imagination and your repeatedly taking 'offense' is clearly a means to avoid responding to the fundamental flaws in your argument, at this stage.
    In fact as I said before I think quite the opposite is the case. Given our small economy and population I think we as a country have done very well overall. To use the cliche we have punched well above our weight. I think Ireland has many very talented and intelligent people who have contributed much to Irish society in many different fields not just economically. If you feel otherwise that is your opinion and your of course free to take that view point but personally I do not agree with that view.
    Waffle, waffle, waffle... still no tangible benefits given despite being asked repeatedly by multiple posters. You're wasting people's time. Put up or shut up at this stage.


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    #129
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    You're taking the piss at this stage. What Godge posted in no way constitutes an ad hominem by any stretch of the imagination and your repeatedly taking 'offense' is clearly a means to avoid responding to the fundamental flaws in your argument, at this stage.

    Waffle, waffle, waffle... still no tangible benefits given despite being asked repeatedly by multiple posters. You're wasting people's time. Put up or shut up at this stage.



    I do not take offence personally I just have pointed out when insults have been in posts. If that has been something I have done a lot of times then I can only say I was just pointing out what I was reading.
    As for Godge's posts I stated clearly that I believed contrary to what he posted that I believe that Ireland especially given its size and population has a very talanted and intelligent population a position I fully stand behind. The old cliche punches above her weight certainly applies to Ireland in many fields I think.


    As for benefits I have repeatedly said I believe when you engage in a positive way with our diaspora there is much to be gained. Giving them the vote can be an excellent way of bringing them closer to Ireland and giving them motivation to become more involved directly to the benefit of Ireland. Be that in business via connections which can lead to economic benefits. Or be it in other fields be they sports, arts, entertainment etc.


    Unless a person is able to come out and say that projext x will occur directly as a result and lead to exactly x economic benefit then no answer I am guessing will satisfy you which is fine. Your against this move. I am in favour. I believe it will benefit our country and not just economically I believe it can benefit Ireland in many fields.


    It would seem based on the recent constitutional convention and comments by Minister Jimmy Deenihan that there is momentum moving towards voting rights for emigrants. Indeed it seems there may even be a referendum on the issue next year. The cabinet is supposed to make a decision before the end of the year so we may well have some big news on this topic in the next month or so.


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    #130
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    Nobody is saying that greater links should not be built with the diaspora, which would inevitability lead to economic, cultural and social benefits. The Constitutional Convention recommendations related to presidential elections only.


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    #131
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    I do not take offence personally I just have pointed out when insults have been in posts.
    Except Godge did not just insult you and you have been repeatedly using perceived insults as a means to avoid defending your points.
    As for benefits I have repeatedly said I believe when you engage in a positive way with our diaspora there is much to be gained. Giving them the vote can be an excellent way of bringing them closer to Ireland and giving them motivation to become more involved directly to the benefit of Ireland. Be that in business via connections which can lead to economic benefits. Or be it in other fields be they sports, arts, entertainment etc.
    Which is magical thinking at best and waffle at worst.
    Unless a person is able to come out and say that projext x will occur directly as a result and lead to exactly x economic benefit then no answer I am guessing will satisfy you which is fine. Your against this move. I am in favour. I believe it will benefit our country and not just economically I believe it can benefit Ireland in many fields.
    That is nonsense, because you do not have to be so specific to make a tangible argument. One could, for example, argue that increasing social welfare payments may aid the economy, by pointing out that such payments would increase money circulation and stimulate commerce when spent, without needing to cite any project x.

    What's been criticized is that you've offered nothing but magical thinking - if we give expats the vote, somehow this will stimulate us to aid the Irish economy. Except you don't even go so far as to suggest why this would stimulate us to aid the Irish economy, nor how we would go about doing so.

    You're trying to sell a pig in a poke and calling it an insult when Godge or several other posters have pointed out that's all you're doing.

    So are you going to actually discuss this topic maturely, or continue trying to push your Fantasy Island logic and sidestep any criticism? The latter frankly leaves you with absolutely no credibility.

    As I already said; put up or shut up.


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    #132
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Except Godge did not just insult you and you have been repeatedly using perceived insults as a means to avoid defending your points.

    Which is magical thinking at best and waffle at worst.

    That is nonsense, because you do not have to be so specific to make a tangible argument. One could, for example, argue that increasing social welfare payments may aid the economy, by pointing out that such payments would increase money circulation and stimulate commerce when spent, without needing to cite any project x.

    What's been criticized is that you've offered nothing but magical thinking - if we give expats the vote, somehow this will stimulate us to aid the Irish economy. Except you don't even go so far as to suggest why this would stimulate us to aid the Irish economy, nor how we would go about doing so.

    You're trying to sell a pig in a poke and calling it an insult when Godge or several other posters have pointed out that's all you're doing.

    So are you going to actually discuss this topic maturely, or continue trying to push your Fantasy Island logic and sidestep any criticism? The latter frankly leaves you with absolutely no credibility.

    As I already said; put up or shut up.


    Again I bring up the repeated use of insults quite simply to point them out whether they be directed at me personally or not. The fact that the issue has been brought up by me so often is simply a case of me pointing them out. Nothing more or less. I must say I find it highly ironic for your to be talking about maturely discussing this topic considering your continual insults and mockery because we have 2 very different views on this topic. Never mind telling me to shut up certainly not exactly what I would consider as mature discussion.


    As for credibility given the out come of the constitutional convention on this topic and the comments of Minister Jimmy Deenihan it would seem that there is a good deal of credibility for those of us who support this move.




    You keep mocking as magical and waffle what I call as innovative and positive engagement with our diaspora. As things stand and for many years the Irish government has extended the begging bowl looking for economic help from emigrants abroad particuarly in the Irish-American arena. On occasion Irish governments have even told diaspora groups how to behave politically despite those same people being disenfranchised as things stand. Not a very positive way to engage with our diaspora in my opinion.
    I feel bringing our diaspora closer to Ireland by engaging with them and giving them a vote is a positive way to motivate and develop a much more positive and beneficial relationship. This does not just apply of course of the economic front but to all fields be they political, economic, social, cultural, sporting etc.


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    #133
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    eire4 wrote: »


    As things stand and for many years the Irish government has extended the begging bowl looking for economic help from emigrants abroad particuarly in the Irish-American arena.
    .

    I resent that Gabriel Byrne school of thought, Ireland has a very good emigrant support programme which has been fairly well protected. Many organisations dealing with our emigrants in the UK and US are funded through it. https://www.dfa.ie/our-role-policies/the-irish-abroad/emigrant-support-programme/


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    #134
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    Again I bring up the repeated use of insults quite simply to point them out whether they be directed at me personally or not. The fact that the issue has been brought up by me so often is simply a case of me pointing them out. Nothing more or less. I must say I find it highly ironic for your to be talking about maturely discussing this topic considering your continual insults and mockery because we have 2 very different views on this topic. Never mind telling me to shut up certainly not exactly what I would consider as mature discussion.
    I treat your argument in the manner it deserves. You've had ample opportunity to do more than ask us to take a leap of faith and you've refused to. In that light, telling you to put up or shut up is perfectly valid - this forum is for mature discussion, not a platform for you to soapbox. If you persist in doing so you're abusing the forum.
    As for credibility given the out come of the constitutional convention on this topic and the comments of Minister Jimmy Deenihan it would seem that there is a good deal of credibility for those of us who support this move.
    As has been pointed out to you, what's been mooted is very limited. And it's as yet only been mooted. A week, let alone how long it would take for this to come to pass, if it ever does, is a long time in politics.
    You keep mocking as magical and waffle what I call as innovative and positive engagement with our diaspora.
    I mock as magical thinking and waffle your reliance on vague terms, lack of actual argument or even that "positive engagement with our diaspora" should mean giving that diaspora a vote. You're selling us a pig in a poke and now you're upset that we're not simply taking your word for it.
    I feel bringing our diaspora closer to Ireland by engaging with them and giving them a vote is a positive way to motivate and develop a much more positive and beneficial relationship. This does not just apply of course of the economic front but to all fields be they political, economic, social, cultural, sporting etc.
    You feel... OK, that's nice. Come back to the discussion when you have more than just your feelings to put on the table.


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    #135
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I treat your argument in the manner it deserves. You've had ample opportunity to do more than ask us to take a leap of faith and you've refused to. In that light, telling you to put up or shut up is perfectly valid - this forum is for mature discussion, not a platform for you to soapbox. If you persist in doing so you're abusing the forum.

    As has been pointed out to you, what's been mooted is very limited. And it's as yet only been mooted. A week, let alone how long it would take for this to come to pass, if it ever does, is a long time in politics.

    I mock as magical thinking and waffle your reliance on vague terms, lack of actual argument or even that "positive engagement with our diaspora" should mean giving that diaspora a vote. You're selling us a pig in a poke and now you're upset that we're not simply taking your word for it.

    You feel... OK, that's nice. Come back to the discussion when you have more than just your feelings to put on the table.








    Fair enough if you feel you want to treat my opinion with disrespect because it differs from your thats certainly your right. Not something I agree with and as before I respect that you differ in your opinion and feel no need to disparge your views on this issue. It is highly ironic though for you again to talk about mature discussion and then tell me to shut up and how angry you seem.


    In terms of the recommendations from the constitutional convention. They have recommended that the vote be given for presidential elections. Which I would support as I think this would be a very positive move. Personally I support further then that but I would certainly support this as a good move. I agree with you on the often glacial nature of how long things can often take to come to pass in Irish politics. We will just have to see how things move along.


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    #136
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    Fair enough if you feel you want to treat my opinion with disrespect because it differs from your thats certainly your right.
    No and you're deluding yourself if you belive that is the reason. I am treating your opinion for what it is; an opinion backed up with little or no argument and absolutely no evidence.

    You seem to be under the mistaken belief that just because one has an opinion it should be respected - incorrect; you are only entitled that your right to have an opinion is respected, not the opinion itself. Were one to have the opinion that blacks are racially inferior, I will respect their right to have that opinion, but there's absolutely no way I will respect the opinion itself, so why should I suddenly respect your opinion that I consider based on nothing other than magical thinking (not because I disagree with it)?

    So unless you decide to actually back up your opinion as has been asked of you by numerous posters, you're doing nothing other than throwing out your opinion and demanding that people take it seriously for no reason than a sense of entitlement that they should. Basically, you're just soapboxing at this stage.


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    #137
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    No and you're deluding yourself if you belive that is the reason. I am treating your opinion for what it is; an opinion backed up with little or no argument and absolutely no evidence.

    You seem to be under the mistaken belief that just because one has an opinion it should be respected - incorrect; you are only entitled that your right to have an opinion is respected, not the opinion itself. Were one to have the opinion that blacks are racially inferior, I will respect their right to have that opinion, but there's absolutely no way I will respect the opinion itself, so why should I suddenly respect your opinion that I consider based on nothing other than magical thinking (not because I disagree with it)?

    So unless you decide to actually back up your opinion as has been asked of you by numerous posters, you're doing nothing other than throwing out your opinion and demanding that people take it seriously for no reason than a sense of entitlement that they should. Basically, you're just soapboxing at this stage.







    Your absolutely right about respecting or not respecting another persons opinions. I was attempting to be nice in commenting on your at times abusive comments I probably should have been more direct in the language I used in that regard. There is a different between not having respect for another persons opinion and verbal abuse.


    Emigration in Ireland is a very touchy subject even today. Maybe that is because we as a country still struggle to deal with the massive emigrantion that occured as a direct result of An Gorta Mhor during the 1840's. But that is really another topic for another debate not here.


    Irish citizens living abroad are still Irish citizens. They did not cease to become Irish citizens because they left Ireland. The laws made in Ireland still affect them as Irish citizens in many ways such as social welfare or education policies if they chose to return. Pension levels for those who worked in Ireland before leaving, consular protection and diaspora policies would be among those issues. Or on a bigger scale if our government decided to hold a referendum on leaving the EU as has become a real possibility with Britain. Major issues like that would directly affect Irish citizens living abroad.


    I believe having a small foreign constituency which emigrants would vote into would give them the voice they need as Irish citizens one to bring up the issues that directly affect Irish emigrants but also because it would help bring them closer to home and be a positive way of engaging with our disapora. Engaging with people in a positive manner is more likely to motivate them positively. There is the small percent who may be able to help Ireland economically but hey every little bit helps. There are some who can bring more intangible indirect benefits to many different fields in Ireland be they sports, culture arts and entertainment etc. Emigrants pay taxes and help the economy when they return on visits giving them the vote encourages them to be part of Ireland more directly by visiting. Beyond that many emigrants leave Ireland out of economic need and would like to return they still have a direct stake in their country.


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    #138
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    Your absolutely right about respecting or respecting another persons opinions. I was attempting to be nice in commenting on your at times abusive comments I probably should have been more direct in the language I used in that regard. There is a different between not having respect for another persons opinion and verbal abuse.
    I've never said one should respect another's opinions; I've said one should respect another's right to have opinions. Not the same thing.

    And what you keep on calling abusive language has simply been that I and others have been rebutting your opinion to the point of ridicule, which unfortunately is all too easy to do. So this 'abuse' really is simply that we're not accepting, or even taking very seriously, your opinions - I'm sorry, but while you have every right to them, you do not have any right whatsoever to having them taken seriously, any more than were you to tell us that the World is secretly governed by nine-foot high lizardmen.
    Irish citizens living abroad are still Irish citizens. They did not cease to become Irish citizens because they left Ireland.
    So, other than the vote, you would support that Irish citizens also pay Irish taxes, get called up for jury duty and also fulfill the responsibilities, not just have the rights, of a citizen?
    The laws made in Ireland still affect them as Irish citizens in many ways such as social welfare or education policies if they chose to return.
    That's complete nonsense. Unless I specifically decide to return to Ireland at some stage in the future, neither of these make any difference to me (Thank God).
    Or on a bigger scale if our government decided to hold a referendum on leaving the EU as has become a real possibility with Britain.
    In what alternative reality is this a "real possibility"?
    I believe having a small foreign constituency which emigrants would vote into would give them the voice they need as Irish citizens one to bring up the issues that directly affect Irish emigrants but also because it would help bring them closer to home and be a positive way of engaging with our disapora.
    To what end and how would this realistically bring that end about? You still have failed to even vaguely justify your belief which amounts to little more than an act of faith that you want everyone else to respect and accept.

    As to the rest of you post, I just can't. When you start talking about "intangible indirect benefits" I just can't take you seriously anymore. How about this: think of all the intangible indirect harm that such a move would bring - we can both play the imaginary argument game.


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    #139
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    eire4 wrote: »

    Irish citizens living abroad are still Irish citizens. They did not cease to become Irish citizens because they left Ireland.

    Will they have to report for jury duty like everyone else on the electoral register?

    eire4 wrote: »
    The laws made in Ireland still affect them as Irish citizens in many ways such as social welfare or education policies if they chose to return.

    So while they are away paying taxes in other countries, the Irish Exchequer doesn't benefit from their taxes, but they should have a vote to keep social welfare rates high in case they come back which means those abroad not paying and taxes could vote to make the muppets left behind pay more taxes.

    You know where you can go with that one, thank you very much.


    eire4 wrote: »
    Pension levels for those who worked in Ireland before leaving, consular protection and diaspora policies would be among those issues.

    Explain in detail how much all of this will cost the people left behind paying taxes?
    eire4 wrote: »
    Or on a bigger scale if our government decided to hold a referendum on leaving the EU as has become a real possibility with Britain. Major issues like that would directly affect Irish citizens living abroad.

    So, for example, if it was to the benefit of those living in Ireland to leave the EU but was a problem for those living in other EU countries (lose the right to work etc.) they should have a vote?

    eire4 wrote: »
    I believe having a small foreign constituency which emigrants would vote into would give them the voice they need as Irish citizens one to bring up the issues that directly affect Irish emigrants but also because it would help bring them closer to home and be a positive way of engaging with our disapora. Engaging with people in a positive manner is more likely to motivate them positively. There is the small percent who may be able to help Ireland economically but hey every little bit helps. There are some who can bring more intangible indirect benefits to many different fields in Ireland be they sports, culture arts and entertainment etc. Emigrants pay taxes and help the economy when they return on visits giving them the vote encourages them to be part of Ireland more directly by visiting. Beyond that many emigrants leave Ireland out of economic need and would like to return they still have a direct stake in their country.

    You still haven't been able to come up with one concrete benefit to the people left behind in Ireland.

    Sure, you want a pension for yourself if you ever come home (paid for by those of us who stayed here) and you want to protect the right you have by virtue of our EU membership to work in other EU countries. Those are all concrete benefits for those who emigrated, not one benefit for those who didn't.


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    #140
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I've never said one should respect another's opinions; I've said one should respect another's right to have opinions. Not the same thing.

    And what you keep on calling abusive language has simply been that I and others have been rebutting your opinion to the point of ridicule, which unfortunately is all too easy to do. So this 'abuse' really is simply that we're not accepting, or even taking very seriously, your opinions - I'm sorry, but while you have every right to them, you do not have any right whatsoever to having them taken seriously, any more than were you to tell us that the World is secretly governed by nine-foot high lizardmen.

    So, other than the vote, you would support that Irish citizens also pay Irish taxes, get called up for jury duty and also fulfill the responsibilities, not just have the rights, of a citizen?

    That's complete nonsense. Unless I specifically decide to return to Ireland at some stage in the future, neither of these make any difference to me (Thank God).

    In what alternative reality is this a "real possibility"?

    To what end and how would this realistically bring that end about? You still have failed to even vaguely justify your belief which amounts to little more than an act of faith that you want everyone else to respect and accept.

    As to the rest of you post, I just can't. When you start talking about "intangible indirect benefits" I just can't take you seriously anymore. How about this: think of all the intangible indirect harm that such a move would bring - we can both play the imaginary argument game.







    I said I was being nice by responding using the word disrespect when mentioning the abusive remarks which clearly you did not pick up on. So again to be clear I now understand that I would have been better off being more direct in pointing out the abusive remarks of which here are samples:


    "there are too many people who abandoned this country"
    "Non-residents have shown their lack of commitment by leaving "
    "those who deserted Ireland" are some selections courtsey of Godge that I was pointing out as abusive and unacceptable.


    For yourself I find it ironic you talk about having a mature debate and then tells me to shut up.


    I mentioned welfare and education policies as being of direct relevance to many Irish you may want to return. But it would seem because you don't want to return that is nonesense. Hmm well I guess that is settled then. Tough luck for any other Irish citizens living abroad who may want to return. Cannot say I would agree with that outlook.


    The country right next door to us is very serious or at least it's current governing party is serious about leaving the EU so welcome to this reality. But there are many issues/treaties that our government could hold referendums on that the emigrants are then excluded from having a vote on.




    While I certainly do believe there is much to be gained for Ireland as a country and our society as a whole to engage with our diaspora by introducing an emigrant vote I find it interesting that you seem very focused on what benefits they bring as a precondition for them to be allowed vote. I have never believed that the right to vote was based on a precondition that the citizen is able to offer benefits in kind to the nation to be allowed to vote other then his voting and taking part in the democratic process.


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    #141
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    Godge wrote: »
    Will they have to report for jury duty like everyone else on the electoral register?




    So while they are away paying taxes in other countries, the Irish Exchequer doesn't benefit from their taxes, but they should have a vote to keep social welfare rates high in case they come back which means those abroad not paying and taxes could vote to make the muppets left behind pay more taxes.

    You know where you can go with that one, thank you very much.





    Explain in detail how much all of this will cost the people left behind paying taxes?



    So, for example, if it was to the benefit of those living in Ireland to leave the EU but was a problem for those living in other EU countries (lose the right to work etc.) they should have a vote?




    You still haven't been able to come up with one concrete benefit to the people left behind in Ireland.

    Sure, you want a pension for yourself if you ever come home (paid for by those of us who stayed here) and you want to protect the right you have by virtue of our EU membership to work in other EU countries. Those are all concrete benefits for those who emigrated, not one benefit for those who didn't.



    Not all people living in Ireland that are eligible to vote have to do jury duty themselves. Are you now saying that jury duty is a precondition to be allowed vote in Ireland?



    I never said anything about looking for pension benefits for myself. So save the self righteous indignation. I clearly talked about the fact that many Irish emigrants are people who have worked many years in Ireland before leaving and thus paid into the system. They thus have a direct interest in government policy in regards to pension levels if they decide to return.


    As I mentioned above to another poster you also seem to have this interesting viewpoint that for an Irish citizen to be allowed vote in Ireland there is a precondition that they must provide a benefit to be allowed vote in Ireland. Cannot say that I agree with the concept of having a citizen have to be able to offer a benefit to the nation as a precondition to voting beyond that of citizens actually voting and taking part in the democratic process. Although I do believe that giving the vote to Irish born citizens living abroad would bring benefits to Ireland and Irish society. It is interesting this idea of having to provide benefits first before being allowed to vote.



    To your oblique insult "You know where you can go with that one" I would never presume to have foreknowledge of what your thinking. If you want to say something say it.


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    #142
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    eire4 wrote: »
    Not all people living in Ireland that are eligible to vote have to do jury duty themselves. Are you now saying that jury duty is a precondition to be allowed vote in Ireland?



    I never said anything about looking for pension benefits for myself. So save the self righteous indignation. I clearly talked about the fact that many Irish emigrants are people who have worked many years in Ireland before leaving and thus paid into the system. They thus have a direct interest in government policy in regards to pension levels if they decide to return.


    As I mentioned above to another poster you also seem to have this interesting viewpoint that for an Irish citizen to be allowed vote in Ireland there is a precondition that they must provide a benefit to be allowed vote in Ireland. Cannot say that I agree with the concept of having a citizen have to be able to offer a benefit to the nation as a precondition to voting beyond that of citizens actually voting and taking part in the democratic process. Although I do believe that giving the vote to Irish born citizens living abroad would bring benefits to Ireland and Irish society. It is interesting this idea of having to provide benefits first before being allowed to vote.



    To your oblique insult "You know where you can go with that one" I would never presume to have foreknowledge of what your thinking. If you want to say something say it.


    Again, you deliberately misunderstand or twist my words.

    I have made it clear that those who are citizens and resident in this country have demonstrated their commitment to the state through their residency.

    The question of commitment only arises in respect of those who chose to leave for whatever reason. Paying taxes is a demonstration of that commitment.

    As for benefits, you are the one who keeps telling us that there are benefits to Ireland to giving the vote to emigrants but so far all you have identified is benefits to the emigrants and nothing for those who stayed.


  • Options
    #143
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    "there are too many people who abandoned this country"
    "Non-residents have shown their lack of commitment by leaving "
    "those who deserted Ireland" are some selections courtsey of Godge that I was pointing out as abusive and unacceptable.
    Actually as you repeatedly were citing me when talking about such abusive remarks, I imagined something else as I never wrote any of the above.

    Even if I had, or given others have, they're entitled to their opinion and they're not altogether wrong - a lot of people have left Ireland looking for a better life and have essentially abandoned those who remain to pick up the pieces of the financial and property crises. I'll fully admit that I've done that - would you prefer that I pretend that I regret not being able to pay the Universal Social Charge on my Swiss salary?
    For yourself I find it ironic you talk about having a mature debate and then tells me to shut up.
    Well, what do you expect. When someone is repeatedly regurgitating juvenile arguments, you eventually lose patience and treat them as a juvenile. Infinite patience is not an obligatory part of maturity.
    I mentioned welfare and education policies as being of direct relevance to many Irish you may want to return. But it would seem because you don't want to return that is nonesense. Hmm well I guess that is settled then. Tough luck for any other Irish citizens living abroad who may want to return. Cannot say I would agree with that outlook.
    But that's the thing; you say you want to return, but you may never do so. So you might return, and on that basis want a right to determine policy from which you may profit from. If you want to return, do so, otherwise there's a limit to how much can change in the short time you'll be away. Or is it you hope to retire in Ireland? I can understand that, and the thought crossed my mind, but it is a bit rich to demand the vote so you can keep the pension levels up for your later benefit.
    The country right next door to us is very serious or at least it's current governing party is serious about leaving the EU so welcome to this reality. But there are many issues/treaties that our government could hold referendums on that the emigrants are then excluded from having a vote on.
    So because the UK may be serious about leaving the UK, Irish citizens abroad should have the vote so as to influence future referenda to something, something connected to the UK maybe leaving the EU...

    Maybe we should have the vote because if the current ebola outbreak becomes a World-wide pandemic, we will want to vote to have our borders closed, except to us naturally, as a defense? Any more fantasy scenarios you care to chip in?
    While I certainly do believe there is much to be gained for Ireland as a country and our society as a whole to engage with our diaspora by introducing an emigrant vote I find it interesting that you seem very focused on what benefits they bring as a precondition for them to be allowed vote.
    And I find it interesting to note that you have not been able to cite any real benefits and simply continue to repeat that you believe they exist. Where are they? Hiding behind Santa and the Easter Bunny?

    Indeed, your entire argument is focused on your rights as a citizen; not once have you discussed your responsibilities as one.

    Look, you're just time wasting at this stage.


  • Options
    #144
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    Godge wrote: »
    Again, you deliberately misunderstand or twist my words.

    I have made it clear that those who are citizens and resident in this country have demonstrated their commitment to the state through their residency.

    The question of commitment only arises in respect of those who chose to leave for whatever reason. Paying taxes is a demonstration of that commitment.

    As for benefits, you are the one who keeps telling us that there are benefits to Ireland to giving the vote to emigrants but so far all you have identified is benefits to the emigrants and nothing for those who stayed.




    If paying income taxes is a requirement to show commitment to the state what about the poor, the unemployed or the physically unable to work? Or those who receive more in benefits then they pay in taxes? Are all of those Irish people not commited to Ireland according to you?
    Personally I would be more inclined to point the finger at the likes of the 63 people suspected of not paying the domicile levy if indeed they did not pay the tax they should have.


    Talking of benefits why is it that to be allowed to vote according to you one group of Irish people must be able to provide certain benefits to the Irish state above and beyond the act of voting and being a part of our democracy before you would let them vote?




    Should those who leave Ireland having worked here for a number of years be entitled to a pension in line with the number of years they worked and contributed in Ireland?


  • Options
    #145
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Actually as you repeatedly were citing me when talking about such abusive remarks, I imagined something else as I never wrote any of the above.

    Even if I had, or given others have, they're entitled to their opinion and they're not altogether wrong - a lot of people have left Ireland looking for a better life and have essentially abandoned those who remain to pick up the pieces of the financial and property crises. I'll fully admit that I've done that - would you prefer that I pretend that I regret not being able to pay the Universal Social Charge on my Swiss salary?

    Well, what do you expect. When someone is repeatedly regurgitating juvenile arguments, you eventually lose patience and treat them as a juvenile. Infinite patience is not an obligatory part of maturity.

    But that's the thing; you say you want to return, but you may never do so. So you might return, and on that basis want a right to determine policy from which you may profit from. If you want to return, do so, otherwise there's a limit to how much can change in the short time you'll be away. Or is it you hope to retire in Ireland? I can understand that, and the thought crossed my mind, but it is a bit rich to demand the vote so you can keep the pension levels up for your later benefit.

    So because the UK may be serious about leaving the UK, Irish citizens abroad should have the vote so as to influence future referenda to something, something connected to the UK maybe leaving the EU...

    Maybe we should have the vote because if the current ebola outbreak becomes a World-wide pandemic, we will want to vote to have our borders closed, except to us naturally, as a defense? Any more fantasy scenarios you care to chip in?

    And I find it interesting to note that you have not been able to cite any real benefits and simply continue to repeat that you believe they exist. Where are they? Hiding behind Santa and the Easter Bunny?

    Indeed, your entire argument is focused on your rights as a citizen; not once have you discussed your responsibilities as one.

    Look, you're just time wasting at this stage.




    I did indeed repeatedly cite you about your insulting remarks yes but as I clearly identified the above remarks as being from another poster I fail to see your confusion about that. I have always been clear what I was talking about in regards to your remarks such as pointing out the irony of your talk about mature debate and then repeatedly telling me to shut up.


    To be clear are you saying that those who have left Ireland "abandoned" Ireland to use the pejorative term used by Godge?




    In terms of returning I have not talked about myself in this topic. I have talked about the possibility that many people who have left do at some point want to return. That is why welfare and pension polices are things that directly affect them. You have stated that you do not want to return to Ireland. So because you don't want to return those others who do and thus have a direct interest in welfare and pension policy don't matter is that it?




    As for Ireland and the EU I was using that as an example of a major decision that can effect all Irish people including those living abroad currently denied the vote. We have seen many votes on treaties over the years or other issues which effect all Irish people yet some do not get to make their voice heard by being allowed to vote. It would seem instead your more interested in mocking then mature debate on that point.




    Again as I mentioned and asked before your very fixed on your principle that one group of Irish people must provide certain benefits to the state before they are allowed to vote. Why do any Irish citizens have to provide certain beneifits to be allowed vote? Is the principle of providing benefits to the state a principle now that you will expand to all Irish people before allowing them to continue to be able to vote or before knocking them off the register because they cannot prove to your satisfaction that they provide enough benefits to the state to be allowed to vote.


  • Options
    #146
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    I did indeed repeatedly cite you about your insulting remarks yes but as I clearly identified the above remarks as being from another poster I fail to see your confusion about that. I have always been clear what I was talking about in regards to your remarks such as pointing out the irony of your talk about mature debate and then repeatedly telling me to shut up.
    You attack me for insulting you and then when challanged on this quote other people's 'insults' rather than mine - crystal clear, it's called diversion.

    As to telling you to "shut up", I've repeatedly asked you to stop soapboxing. You have absolutely no right to attempt to do that here, and should indeed refrain or 'shut up' from doing so.
    To be clear are you saying that those who have left Ireland "abandoned" Ireland to use the pejorative term used by Godge?
    We have; I have and so have you. To claim that to emigrate, leave Ireland's social and economic problems behind, let those left behind carry the burden of those problems while we take up employment and start new lives elsewhere is an abandonment of the nation. Using some pathetic fig-leaf claim that we've not done so because maybe we'll return (no doubt when the heavy lifting is done) means we've not done so would be dishonest in the extreme. Pathetic even.

    Or have you been sending your share of the Universal Social Charge into the Revenue all this time? Tell us how you've been carrying out your civic duty, rather than make empty claims of patriotism and how you want your rights recognized without doing anything for them - because that kind of 'patriotism' is frankly contemptible.
    In terms of returning I have not talked about myself in this topic. I have talked about the possibility that many people who have left do at some point want to return. That is why welfare and pension polices are things that directly affect them. You have stated that you do not want to return to Ireland. So because you don't want to return those others who do and thus have a direct interest in welfare and pension policy don't matter is that it?
    So maybe you want to return, therefore you definitely want the vote. Why should anyone believe you? Even if you did, you've managed to avoid the worst of the recession that Ireland saw after the crisis. Good for you that you patriotically avoided your share of the burden and will return to reap the rewards of all those who remained. Disgusting.
    Again as I mentioned and asked before your very fixed on your principle that one group of Irish people must provide certain benefits to the state before they are allowed to vote. Why do any Irish citizens have to provide certain beneifits to be allowed vote?
    A citizen in Ireland if employed pays tax. If unemployed they still must suffer the consequences of their democratic choices. You and I do neither.

    And no matter how much you try and deflect and claim that I am arguing that I am tying the vote to taxation or whatever other nonsense, you have yet to explain why you should have the same say as an employed person in Ireland, yet not the same responsibility even though you are employed elsewhere.

    You want the same rights as someone in Ireland without the same duties or consequences and that is reprehensible.


  • Options
    #147
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    You attack me for insulting you and then when challanged on this quote other people's 'insults' rather than mine - crystal clear, it's called diversion.

    As to telling you to "shut up", I've repeatedly asked you to stop soapboxing. You have absolutely no right to attempt to do that here, and should indeed refrain or 'shut up' from doing so.

    We have; I have and so have you. To claim that to emigrate, leave Ireland's social and economic problems behind, let those left behind carry the burden of those problems while we take up employment and start new lives elsewhere is an abandonment of the nation. Using some pathetic fig-leaf claim that we've not done so because maybe we'll return (no doubt when the heavy lifting is done) means we've not done so would be dishonest in the extreme. Pathetic even.

    Or have you been sending your share of the Universal Social Charge into the Revenue all this time? Tell us how you've been carrying out your civic duty, rather than make empty claims of patriotism and how you want your rights recognized without doing anything for them - because that kind of 'patriotism' is frankly contemptible.

    So maybe you want to return, therefore you definitely want the vote. Why should anyone believe you? Even if you did, you've managed to avoid the worst of the recession that Ireland saw after the crisis. Good for you that you patriotically avoided your share of the burden and will return to reap the rewards of all those who remained. Disgusting.

    A citizen in Ireland if employed pays tax. If unemployed they still must suffer the consequences of their democratic choices. You and I do neither.

    And no matter how much you try and deflect and claim that I am arguing that I am tying the vote to taxation or whatever other nonsense, you have yet to explain why you should have the same say as an employed person in Ireland, yet not the same responsibility even though you are employed elsewhere.

    You want the same rights as someone in Ireland without the same duties or consequences and that is reprehensible.








    Attack you hmm I think you might be indulging in a little projection there considering the level of anger in the tone of the above post. I only pointed out when your insulting me. The other people's insults I mentioned were Godge's which I clearly stated as his not yours. I have not attacked you in fact I have continually made the point that I respected your different opinion even though you do not respect mine. Along that vein I will again point out there you go again telling me to shut up yet again.


    Just to clarify there from the above your saying that anybody who emigrates from Ireland is "abandoning" the country to use Godge's pejorative term. Your saying that you yourself "abandoned" Ireland and that anybody else who emigrated "abandoned" Ireland also. Personally I would not agree with such a verbal attack on those who emigrated. There are great and talanted Irish people living in Ireland and outside Ireland. Like any group there is bad apples but overall I think we do tremendously well as a people.


    In terms of Irish emigrants returning I mentioned the fact that pension polices and other welfare and educational polices were of direct relevance to them. Your response was to mention you were not interested in returning which is fair enough but does not address the point that many others may and at times do return.


    Some citizens in Ireland do pay income tax. Some do not. That is normal. I am also still interested by your principle that a group of Irish people must provide benefits before they are allowed take part in the democratic process by voting. Once again why do certain Irish citizens have to provide benefits to the state before they are allowed vote? Is this principle of yours of providing benefits to the state a principle now that you will expand to all Irish people before allowing them to continue to be able to vote or before knocking them off the register because they cannot prove to your satisfaction that they provide enough benefits to the state to be allowed to vote?


  • Options
    #148
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    The other people's insults I mentioned were Godge's which I clearly stated as his not yours.
    Actually, you did not:
    eire4 wrote: »
    I said I was being nice by responding using the word disrespect when mentioning the abusive remarks which clearly you did not pick up on. So again to be clear I now understand that I would have been better off being more direct in pointing out the abusive remarks of which here are samples:


    "there are too many people who abandoned this country"
    "Non-residents have shown their lack of commitment by leaving "
    "those who deserted Ireland" are some selections courtsey of Godge that I was pointing out as abusive and unacceptable.
    Where did you even mention Godge, let alone clearly state anything? I'm afraid you're lying.
    Along that vein I will again point out there you go again telling me to shut up yet again.
    Then stop soapboxing.
    Just to clarify there from the above your saying that anybody who emigrates from Ireland is "abandoning" the country to use Godge's pejorative term. Your saying that you yourself "abandoned" Ireland and that anybody else who emigrated "abandoned" Ireland also. Personally I would not agree with such a verbal attack on those who emigrated. There are great and talanted Irish people living in Ireland and outside Ireland. Like any group there is bad apples but overall I think we do tremendously well as a people.
    More waffle. I have pointed out why I believe it to be an abandonment, and as a rebuttal you respond with some irrelevant nonsense about "great and talented Irish people" that has nothing to do with the question of abandonment. You're sidestepping points disingenuously at this stage.
    In terms of Irish emigrants returning I mentioned the fact that pension polices and other welfare and educational polices were of direct relevance to them. Your response was to mention you were not interested in returning which is fair enough but does not address the point that many others may and at times do return.
    That was not my response. Stop attempting to sidestep arguments so dishonestly.
    Some citizens in Ireland do pay income tax. Some do not. That is normal. I am also still interested by your principle that a group of Irish people must provide benefits before they are allowed take part in the democratic process by voting. Once again why do certain Irish citizens have to provide benefits to the state before they are allowed vote?
    At this stage, I'll presume that you're not an idiot and you'll have understood that I have repeatedly said never suggested anything of the sort. I'm not repeating myself again and am going to put it down to your own dishonesty.

    Really, I don't see much point in this discussion continuing. Your responses have done little more than ignore and sidestep arguments made against you and at this stage you even actively lie about what you've written. You've done little more than soapbox, given no real arguments beyond vague waffle and refuse to engage in debate.

    At this stage, responding to you is simply given further oxygen to it.


  • Options
    #149
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    eire4 wrote: »
    If paying income taxes is a requirement to show commitment to the state what about the poor, the unemployed or the physically unable to work? Or those who receive more in benefits then they pay in taxes? Are all of those Irish people not commited to Ireland according to you?
    Godge wrote: »
    Again, you deliberately misunderstand or twist my words.

    I have made it clear that those who are citizens and resident in this country have demonstrated their commitment to the state through their residency.

    The question of commitment only arises in respect of those who chose to leave for whatever reason. Paying taxes is a demonstration of that commitment.

    As for benefits, you are the one who keeps telling us that there are benefits to Ireland to giving the vote to emigrants but so far all you have identified is benefits to the emigrants and nothing for those who stayed.


    Please read my posts and then make an intelligent response addressing the points I make, not the ones you think I make.


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    #150
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    Looks like there is some momentum toward voting rights for emigrants picking up:





    Call to extend Irish voting rights to citizens outside state



    _78956130_daildebate.jpg Members of the cross-party committee discussed the creation of a new "Northern Ireland constituency" with the power to elect its own representatives to the Dáil


    Irish citizens living outside the Republic of Ireland should be granted the right to vote in Irish elections, according to a parliamentary committee.


    The recommendation included voters in Northern Ireland.


    The issue was examined by members of the Irish parliament's Joint Committee of European Union Affairs.


    It recommended extending voting rights in both parliamentary and presidential elections and discussed the option of a new "Northern Ireland constituency".
    Dual rights
    The committee has now called on the Irish government to set up a new electoral commission, to take the proposal forward and investigate in detail the necessary infrastructure and constitutional changes required to extend the vote.


    Committee members discussed a range of potential scenarios, including the possibility of a Northern Ireland constituency that would have the power to elect its own representatives to the Irish parliament (Dáil).


    The idea was not mentioned in the final report, but the chair of the committee, Dominic Hannigan, said the issue emerged during their meetings.


    He said they discussed a range of options for potential northern voters, such as whether a new, separate constituency should be created north of the border, or whether Northern Ireland's 18 Westminster MPs should simply be given dual speaking and voting rights in both Dublin and London.


    Mr Hannigan, from the Irish Labour Party, said the latter option was suggested by Sinn Féin members of the committee.


    Sinn Féin currently has five MPs who do not take their seats at Westminister, in line with the party's long-standing policy of abstentionism.
    Passport holders
    Mr Hannigan said it would mean that for the first time, unionist MPs would have the right to debate and vote in the Dáil, although he accepted that "not all MPs" in Northern Ireland would take up the offer.


    He also said that decisions about who would be allowed to vote in the elections would have to be fully examined by any new electoral commission, but he suggested that holding an Irish passport could be used as one example of eligibility criteria.


    Mr Hannigan said it was important that Irish citizens living outside the state were given a stake in the affairs of their homeland.


    The committee was given the task of examining voting rights after the European Commission criticised the Republic of Ireland for failing to provide voting rights for Irish citizens living in other EU countries.


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    #151
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Actually, you did not:

    Where did you even mention Godge, let alone clearly state anything? I'm afraid you're lying.

    Then stop soapboxing.

    More waffle. I have pointed out why I believe it to be an abandonment, and as a rebuttal you respond with some irrelevant nonsense about "great and talented Irish people" that has nothing to do with the question of abandonment. You're sidestepping points disingenuously at this stage.

    That was not my response. Stop attempting to sidestep arguments so dishonestly.

    At this stage, I'll presume that you're not an idiot and you'll have understood that I have repeatedly said never suggested anything of the sort. I'm not repeating myself again and am going to put it down to your own dishonesty.

    Really, I don't see much point in this discussion continuing. Your responses have done little more than ignore and sidestep arguments made against you and at this stage you even actively lie about what you've written. You've done little more than soapbox, given no real arguments beyond vague waffle and refuse to engage in debate.

    At this stage, responding to you is simply given further oxygen to it.


    I suggest you read again.

    [/COLOR Quote:
    Originally Posted by eire4 viewpost.gif
    The other people's insults I mentioned were Godge's which I clearly stated as his not yours.

    Actually, you did not:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by eire4 viewpost.gif
    I said I was being nice by responding using the word disrespect when mentioning the abusive remarks which clearly you did not pick up on. So again to be clear I now understand that I would have been better off being more direct in pointing out the abusive remarks of which here are samples:


    "there are too many people who abandoned this country"
    "Non-residents have shown their lack of commitment by leaving "
    "those who deserted Ireland" are some selections courtsey of Godge that I was pointing out as abusive and unacceptable.

    Where did you even mention Godge, let alone clearly state anything? I'm afraid you're lying.[/QUOTE]


    As the quote clearly says above
    "some selections courtesy of Godge"


    I am afraid you need to read more carefully!
    So as to avoid needlessly making the above mistake or maybe that was just the progression for you from telling me shut up when you discussed mature debate.


    Glad we could clarify that you do indeed believe that those who have emigrated Ireland "abandoned" the country to again use Godge's pejorative description. I could not disagree more strongly and in particular think it very offensive to use such abusive language towards our emigrants. As I said before there are good and bad in every group. But considering how small we are as a people and country in world terms we have done very well overall I believe and have indeed many great and talanted people both at home and in our diaspora.



    Speaking of sidestepping the issue. I will ask again. This principle of having to show you can provide benefits to the state before being allowed to vote which you it seems support. Do you propose having this principle extended to other sections of Irish citizens such as the unemployed, the poor or those who receive more in benefits?
    Also why do any section of Irish citizens have to provide benefits to the state before being allowed to vote?

    These are very clear questions which I ask again.


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