"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

noelfirl · 04-01-2012 2:00am

Davy wrote: »

If you topup the card online, and you only use Dublin bus, you dont get your credit unless you go to a shop/luas/IR stn? Am I missing something? Why doesn't the credit automatically go to the card after you pay online?

Because it's impossible for the card to know it has been topped up until it comes in contact with a connection to the backend database. For that to work on buses all of them would need a live internet connection all the time. The way it is implemented is bog standard for this type of system worldwide, where you have to go to a live point to get the credit applied.

Victor · 04-01-2012 2:28am

Davy wrote: »

If you topup the card online, and you only use Dublin bus, you dont get your credit unless you go to a shop/luas/IR stn? Am I missing something? Why doesn't the credit automatically go to the card after you pay online?

When automatic top-ups* become available in the next few months, this will no longer be a problem.

* You might set it such that every time your balance drops to €10, as €20 top-up is applied.

Aard · 04-01-2012 2:32am

In fairness, even if it is bogstandard it's a bit stupid if you have to go into a shop to activate the credit... Might as well just buy it in the shop in the first place. I fail to see how there is any convenience there.

Davy · 04-01-2012 2:35am

Victor wrote: »

When automatic top-ups* become available in the next few months, this will no longer be a problem.

* You might set it such that every time your balance drops to €10, as €20 top-up is applied.

But if you never used it at luas or IR stations, how would that update?
What is the difference than applying the credit manually once off?

bk · 04-01-2012 2:53am

Davy wrote: »

But if you never used it at luas or IR stations, how would that update?
What is the difference than applying the credit manually once off?

It looks like they are going to use the same method as London Bus which is very clever.

1) You apply online for automatic top-ups (enter bank details etc.)
2) To activate the automatic top-ups you have to bring it to a LUAS/Payzone/Irish Rail validator to activate. This validator basically sets a flag on your leap card saying automatic top-ups are applied. This only needs to be done once, the very first time.
3) Now every time you validate on the bus, it sees the flag and if it is set and you balance goes below x amount, the dublin bus validator adds y credit to your leap card.
4) At the end of the day the bus returns to the depot and your top-up is recorded in the central system and the cost deducted via direct debit.

Note this doesn't require the Dublin Bus validators to have an online connection to work.

It is unfortunate that auto-tops weren't enabled from the start. One off tops really aren't very useful and seem to only be causing confusion. I'm not sure I would have even bothered with enabling one off top-ups, given their limitations.

In particular it would have been great if auto-tops were available from day one and that you could have ordered leap cards with it enabled by default.

noelfirl · 04-01-2012 2:54am

Davy wrote: »

Victor wrote: »

When automatic top-ups* become available in the next few months, this will no longer be a problem.

* You might set it such that every time your balance drops to €10, as €20 top-up is applied.

But if you never used it at luas or IR stations, how would that update?
What is the difference than applying the credit manually once off?

You would probably need to use it at a Luas or (coming soon) Irish Rail ticket vending machine or do a balance check in a shop to tell the card it now has auto top up capability but after that it shouldn't matter - IIRC it will then top itself up when needed including upon boarding a bus, the bus would then report the auto top up when it returns to the garage at the end of the day and it would be entered and charged.

Edit - as bk said above.

Davy · 04-01-2012 2:56am

bk wrote: »

It looks like they are going to use the same method as London Bus which is very clever.

1) You apply online for automatic top-ups (enter bank details etc.)
2) To activate the automatic top-ups you have to bring it to a LUAS/Payzone/Irish Rail validator to activate. This validator basically sets a flag on your leap card saying automatic top-ups are applied. This only needs to be done once, the very first time.
3) Now every time you validate on the bus, it sees the flag and if it is set and you balance goes below x amount, the dublin bus validator adds y credit to your leap card.
4) At the end of the day the bus returns to the depot and your top-up is recorded in the central system and the cost deducted via direct debit.

Note this doesn't require the Dublin Bus validators to have an online connection to work.

It is unfortunate that auto-tops weren't enabled from the start. One off tops really aren't very useful and seem to only be causing confusion. I'm not sure I would have even bothered with enabling one off top-ups, given their limitations.

In particular it would have been great if auto-tops were available from day one and that you could have ordered leap cards with it enabled by default.

Guess that's that's not to bad. Hopefully won't be too down the road

Victor · 04-01-2012 2:59am

Davy wrote: »

But if you never used it at luas or IR stations, how would that update?
What is the difference than applying the credit manually once off?

Currently when you top-up on-line you "push" the money to the card.

With auto top-up, once the card drops below the top-up trigger level (€X - this may be fixed, I don't know), it tells the validator "I'm an auto top-up customer, add €Y to my balance and debit my debit / credit card / bank account for €Y." The new balance on the cards will be €X+Y less and fare charged. The bus remembers that Card 123456789 was topped-up by €Y and at the end of the day, this is downloaded to the back office system, and charges the debit / credit card / bank account. In a way, this is "pulling" the money to the card.

AlekSmart · 04-01-2012 6:57am

Victor wrote: »

Currently when you top-up on-line you "push" the money to the card.

With auto top-up, once the card drops below the top-up trigger level (€X - this may be fixed, I don't know), it tells the validator "I'm an auto top-up customer, add €Y to my balance and debit my debit / credit card / bank account for €Y." The new balance on the cards will be €X+Y less and fare charged. The bus remembers that Card 123456789 was topped-up by €Y and at the end of the day, this is downloaded to the back office system, and charges the debit / credit card / bank account. In a way, this is "pulling" the money to the card.

The somewhat deeply buried T's&C's contain a myriad of "Stuff" relevant to Leaps strategy going forward...

https://www.leapcard.ie/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=CG%2fCj953WkPB%2b7fwjkLFshsyP7wecX6fiV0VBn3Q632F20yhboVXGTVmv%2b2bImvcFvyDWv8wk%2bd4E5kAGPCvjpJvBUgOhvVEg%2fB6ZgVyLiI6nLqx13jMpsQIKgDUASmGM793kdSI9FJOtf2oYKBBrP3uRbgVAG0ZGo31awr2Vmg%3d

Looking at 3.4 for example....

3.4 Auto Top-Up - Coming Soon

(a) The terms and conditions in this section 3.4 shall be binding on any Leap Card customer who avails of the Auto Top-Up facility (when introduced).

(b) Registered and Personalised Leap Card customers can apply for the Auto Top-Up facility by completing the online application form available at www.leapcard.ie. As part of the application process the Leap Card customer must nominate an account with an accepted payment source (as per sub-section (h) below) from which Auto Top-Ups can be debited (the “Account”).

(c) The Leap Card customer is responsible for ensuring that the Account information is accurate and up to date and that his/her Account is at all times valid and contains sufficient funds or credit in order to meet deductions by the Authority in accordance with these Terms and Conditions. Leap Card customers can update their Account information Online. Leap Card customers shall inform Leap Card Customer Care immediately of any closure or termination of the Account.

(d) The Authority will set a minimum Travel Credit balance (the “threshold”) from time to time. With Auto Top-Up, when a Leap Card customer’s Travel Credit balance falls below the threshold, the Leap Card will be automatically reloaded with Leap Card customer’s pre-selected reload value (the “reload value”), and simultaneously an instruction will automatically be sent to debit the reload value from the Account. The initial threshold is set at €15.00.

(e) During the application for Auto Top-Up, Leap Card customers may designate a reload value (e.g. €20.00, €30.00, €40.00 or €50.00). The Leap Card customer may not change the reload value once Auto Top-Up has been enabled.

(f) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary herein contained, the Leap Card customer agrees that a minimum period of 7 days must elapse between each Auto Top-Up. The Authority shall not be obliged to top-up an Auto Top-Up enabled Leap Card until after the Leap Card customer’s Account has been successfully debited for any previous Auto Top-Ups.

(g) The Leap Card customer’s online account will display details of the Auto Top-Up amounts that the Leap Card customer has chosen.

(h) Auto Top-Up may only be paid for via direct debit payments using the Leap Card customer’s designated current account; Credit card payments will not be accepted as a payment method for Auto Top-Up.

(i) Leap Card customers may cancel their Auto Top-Up facility Online at any time. The cancellation request only becomes effective when configured on to the Leap Card. Until the Leap Card is configured, the Auto Top-Up remains in place and the Authority will not be liable for any Auto Top-Up prior to configuration. The Leap Card customer will nominate online where the Leap Card will be taken for configuration. Note that currently Leap Card customers are not able to nominate the Validators on Dublin Bus or Bus Éireann for configuration. The Authority will endeavour to ensure that the cancellation request will be available for configuration on to the Leap Card as soon as possible; however, it cannot guarantee that the request will be available sooner than 48 hours after cancellation.

(j) If an Auto Top-Up instruction for a Leap Card is rejected by a Leap Card customer’s financial institution, the Authority reserves the right to do any or all of the following:

i. Recover from the Leap Card customer the amount of any rejected transaction plus all costs incurred (including legal costs on a full indemnity basis) by the Authority for the recovery of any such amounts.

ii. Withdraw the Auto Top-Up facility from the Leap Card customer.

iii. Suspend the use of the Leap Card for such period as may be determined by the Authority.

iv. Cancel the Leap Card.

v. Disqualify the Leap Card customer from applying for any new Auto Top-Up facility for such length of time as may be determined to be appropriate by the Authority.

vi. Deduct or set-off any monies owing to the Authority from the remaining value and any Deposit in respect of the Leap Card.

(k) The Authority reserves the right to withdraw the Auto Top-Up facility for all Leap Card customers at its discretion or modify either the reload value or the threshold value.

Draupnir · 04-01-2012 10:51am

As a LUAS user, the push top up system is not so bad. I can top up online and grab it at the LUAS stop the next time I tag on. I wont need the credit until I next tag on anyway and I have to do it to get on the LUAS, so no inconvenience there.

I can totally understand it's frustrating if you are a bus user and have to go out of your way to get your credit.

What's the situation with seeing your tag on and off history on the website? That doesn't appear to be there yet?

Draupnir · 04-01-2012 10:52am

Draupnir wrote: »

As a LUAS user, the push top up system is not so bad. I can top up online and grab it at the LUAS stop the next time I tag on. I wont need the credit until I next tag on anyway and I have to do it to get on the LUAS, so no inconvenience there.

I can totally understand it's frustrating if you are a bus user and have to go out of your way to get your credit.

What's the situation with seeing your tag on and off history on the website? That doesn't appear to be there yet?

Forgive me, it appears that it's now working but wasn't last evening when I checked.

The time of transactions on the website does however appear to be GMT -1 because I sure as hell didn't get on a LUAS at 7:45am yesterday.

lainey316 · 04-01-2012 1:22pm

This just appeared in my twitter after I read this thread... imagine my lolz

DublinBusNews Dublin Bus
@LeapCard is an easy-to-use, hassle-free way to travel around Dublin. You can use it on Dublin Bus, Luas and DART bit.ly/A8eAzU

devnull · 04-01-2012 5:55pm

I used the leap card for a couple of journeys prior to Christmas before the office Christmas party and I normally drive in and I was overcharged by 20c for the journeys as some have documented on here.

Has anyone been successful in getting a refund? Dublin Bus plain refuse to do it and the Leap Card team seem to believe it is a Dublin Bus error.

Daxve · 04-01-2012 6:01pm

I emailed about the 20c overcharge and got following email from their customer service on the 29th of December and not a word since. It would appear no one wants to deal with this issue I'm going to send a follow up email now.

(names removed)
Hello ,

Thanks for your email, I have refered your case to our back office on this issue where they will make an investigation and get into contact with you as soon as possible.

Kind Regards,

Leapcard Customer Care

www.leapcard.ie
E-mail: customer.care@leapcard.ie
Phone: 1850 824 824
Postal Address: Leap Card Customer Care, PO BOX 12119, Dublin 24

Opening Hours: Monday to Friday 7am to 7pm, Saturday and Bank Holidays 9am to 3pm
Closed: Sundays, Christmas Day, St. Stephens Day and New Year’s Day

devnull · 04-01-2012 6:02pm

I got a very similar mail as well, I followed up and was told that it was not their problem and I should contact Dublin Bus.

AlekSmart · 04-01-2012 8:15pm

devnull wrote: »

I used the leap card for a couple of journeys prior to Christmas before the office Christmas party and I normally drive in and I was overcharged by 20c for the journeys as some have documented on here.

Has anyone been successful in getting a refund? Dublin Bus plain refuse to do it and the Leap Card team seem to believe it is a Dublin Bus error.

Devnull,I would pursue this as far as possible because it strikes to the core of establishing the credibility of Leap as a trustworthy system.

Many of the people I have spoken with were of the impression that THE DRIVER had overcharged them .....This is exactly the sort of stuff which will see Leap fail miserably.

Just to recap,if anybody has used their LeapCard on the REMOTE validator for a supposed €2.20 Flat Fare pre Jan 1st 2012,please check your history if possible as you will most likely have been charged €2.40.

Something is not right here.

cson · 04-01-2012 9:41pm

Bought my first Leap card today so may as well detail my experiences here as I'm quite a frequent poster and lurker in this forum...

Buying: Very straightforward, bought it in the Centra beside Drumcondra Station. They guy there knew exactly what to do and was very helpful - asked if it was my first time buying one and he detailed everything [card is €5 and requires min €5 credit deposit]. I did check with him to ensure that the card was activated as that was a problem that occurred for some people on this thread iirc.

Using: Again thanks to reading the thread I pretty much knew exactly what to do. Avoid the validator as it would have swiped €2.40 automagically off the card for a €1.25 journey, placed the card flat on the drivers console told her €1.25 [though the Leap blurb says to state the destination to the driver and then they'll work it out] and away we go. The balance of your card shows up initally and after deduction which was handy I thought. Simples.

Website: For something they spent €40m on they really could have come up with a better website for the project. Onerous to register, by that I mean if I can't register in 2mins its taking too long. Difficult to navigate to see where to top up and check your balance etc. Needs to be simplified; I wouldn't consider myself technically 'handicapped' for want of a better phrase but if its causing me a headache then I'm pretty sure it'll do the same for a lot of people.

Thoughts: Needs less driver interaction. Needs more promotion. Needs a simpler website. From a DB pov I can't understand the need for driver interaction. I'm not a tech head so I don't know if this is on the money but it absolutely screams at me to rig up the validator to a tag on tag off mode whereby you get on validate the card and then x stops later tag off when you get off - i.e. get on at stage 77, get off at stage 79 = €1.25 debited from the card. Failure to tag off results in the max fare being charged. Obviously this is contingent on being tied into the stage system [which I think with the RTPI set up and each unique stop number shouldn't be a major issue] which unfortunately as Aleksmart and others have pointed out is an absolute disaster mired in ambiguity.

I'm going to take a wild guess that this being Ireland, it'll take ~3yrs for the kinks to be ironed out and driver interaction eradicated. In my idealistic head it'll be a serene system then as the minimum fare will probably be €4 and everyone will be using Leap.

KD345 · 04-01-2012 10:26pm

devnull wrote: »

I got a very similar mail as well, I followed up and was told that it was not their problem and I should contact Dublin Bus.

It's hard to believe that after €55 million the basic function of dealing with customer refunds still hasn't been finalised. There needs to be one easy to follow procedure for passengers to get refunds and that should involve Leap, nobody else. Leap should not be passing the buck to the operator. Even if it is the fault of the operator, the passenger should be able to sort their issue with Leap.

I fear for what will happen when passengers can actually "leap" between different operators using their card, because right now there really is nothing integrated about the Leap card whatsoever.

Carawaystick · 05-01-2012 12:46am

cson wrote: »

Website: For something they spent €40m on they really could have come up with a better website for the project. Onerous to register, by that I mean if I can't register in 2mins its taking too long. Difficult to navigate to see where to top up and check your balance etc. Needs to be simplified; I wouldn't consider myself technically 'handicapped' for want of a better phrase but if its causing me a headache then I'm pretty sure it'll do the same for a lot of people.

Had a look at the tourist info page on leapcard
man, it says smething about the crapness of the system when they don't list any mainline rail station as a location to buy a leapcard...

Also you can only buy a leapcard online if you live in the EU, except Luxemburg, There are about a dozen lines naming Ireland though...
If you live in Lexembourg, however, whereever that may be, you can buy online...

Aard · 05-01-2012 12:50am

Dublin Bus's twitter stated that anybody overcharged on Leap can get a refund in the head office on OCS.

Profiler · 05-01-2012 1:11am

Aard wrote: »

Dublin Bus's twitter stated that anybody overcharged on Leap can get a refund in the head office on OCS.

Wow! how convenient for those who live/work near OCS.... for the other section of the population (the vast majority) that's pretty poor service.

If you buy on line why do they insist you call in to their office in person to rectify a problem of their making? :rolleyes:

I have a collection of bus "change" tickets which is now worth over €40...

I really must take time off work to call in and collect MY money :rolleyes:

AlekSmart · 05-01-2012 1:29am

Profiler: I have a collection of bus "change" tickets which is now worth over €40...

I really must take time off work to call in and collect MY money

I know it's probably a long shot,but charities such as ALONE,St V de P,and CHILDLINE will be only too glad to take your Change Tickets at any of their shops/offices and save YOU the onerous trek into An Lár.

Daxve · 05-01-2012 1:33am

Aard wrote: »

Dublin Bus's twitter stated that anybody overcharged on Leap can get a refund in the head office on OCS.

Great so to get my 20 cent back I need to spend €4.80 in additional bus fares to get it :rolleyes:

This should be the responsibility of the Leap card operator I paid my money to them and they in turn pay the transport operators any refunds due should work the same way they refund me and then reclaim the amount from the transport operator.

Aard · 05-01-2012 2:37am

Completely agree that it's a bit useless to make the trip into town just for the few cents.

In supermarkets, if they overcharge you they'll often give the item for free. Or with mobile phone networks, I've been given between €5 and €20 credit a few times for relatively small mistakes on their part. It would make sense for DB/Leap to make a token gesture to affected customers in the same vein -- say €5, and allow people to pick it up at a payzone outlet too.

As Alek says above, and indeed before, there is some trepidation about using Leap atm. This needs to be hammered on the head asap. If people hear enough stories about it (double-charging, over-charging, wrong validator...) they won't bother with it. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people hear about the increased fares, say "feck that", and hop on their bikes instead (or worse still, the car). Sure most people still don't know what a Leap card even is!

So, to any Leap Card or Dublin Bus decision maker reading this: please conduct some damage limitations after this legally-questionable over-charging. Show some goodwill by not forcing people to go out of their way to reclaim what you took from them.

Jesus Wept · 05-01-2012 4:58am

So is this ongoing problem, the overcharging or has it stopped?
Considering getting a card soon as I am not fond of paying more than need be.

foggy_lad · 05-01-2012 5:06am

So the card itself can probably be trusted but leap customer care can't be trusted to provide even basic customer care and dont want to hear about problems if they involve a transport operator like luas Dublin bus or Irish rail. As Alex smart says buy up as many travel 90 books of tickets as you can afford and give back the awful leap card for your €5 credit.

bk · 05-01-2012 10:55am

For the overcharging on Dublin Bus prior to the new year, it should be possible for the NTA/Leap operators, to do a database query to identify all such overcharging (trivial, I could knock together the SQL query in 5 minutes) and automatically apply a refund.

The only issue would be that you wouldn't receive the refund until you used the LEAP card at a payzone outlet or IR or LUAS validator.

But at least you would eventually automatically get it.

Victor · 05-01-2012 12:54pm

The-Rigger wrote: »

So is this ongoing problem, the overcharging or has it stopped?

It seems to have been specific to some buses at the end of December when the new fares were loaded before they should have been.

theskeptic · 05-01-2012 1:59pm

theskeptic wrote: »

I topped up my Leap Card online with 20euro - giving a balance of 25euro. Screen asked me if I wanted to apply this top up at a Payzone outlet, Luas ticket validator or Irish Rail validator. I chose the Irish Rail option. The web site says it can take up to 48 hours for payment to go through (WTF?).

Over 48 hours later... I tried my Leap card in an Irish Rail ticket issuing machine in Clontarf Rd it didn't work (ok they kinda implied it would only work on ticket validator at gate). I went through gate and whey hey machine said my card had 25euro on it as expected. I got off at Harmonstown (2 stops away) and tagged-off - I saw the figure 16 flash past the validator and thought uh-oh... When I got home and looked up my Leap Card balance I got a screen saying that the balance on my card was 16.39euro - i.e. the trip from Clontarf Rd to Harmonstown had cost me >8.6 euro.

I contacted Leap Card customer care via email and they said that the excessive fare was an issue for Irish Rail and I should contact them! They said the balance can take 24 hours to update online - despite the fact that I checked the topup > 48 hours later and the trip DART trip > 24 hours later.

This has all the signs of a system that is NOT ready to be rolled out. Be warned: use Leap Card at your own risk. As for the promised future feature of being able to link the Leap Card to a direct debit - eh, no thanks...

UPDATE: I finally got a refund on the 4 January 2012 - I suppose that is not too long to wait considering intervening Christmas / New Year holidays. Unofficial postings have suggested that one of the ticket validating machines at Harmonstown was not working correctly and instead of tagging me off, tagged me on a second time and I incurred 2 max fares of e4.30.

Specifically with regard to Leap Card - their customer care did bounce me to Irish Rail who then bounced me back to Leap Card customer care who (presumably) then got IR to issue the refund. Going forward it would be good if Leap Card customer care acted as the front end to all Leap Card issues and dealt with IR, DB, Veolia as and when necessary.

AlekSmart · 05-01-2012 2:47pm

Victor wrote: »

It seems to have been specific to some buses at the end of December when the new fares were loaded before they should have been.

THis was what I initially thought Victor,however the problem turned out to be far wider in scale and confined to the remote validator which charged the New Flat Fare €2.40 whilst the machine proper still charged the Old amounts.

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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