DART+ (DART Expansion)

If IÉ wanted to get rid of the LHB rolling stock from the network; they have to be really patient to do it because the rest of the Toyko Car fleet brought into the DART network from the early 2000's onwards have to be refurbished to include a bi mode function in them. But there is a problem for IÉ to overcome with that situation. And that is they need to maintain an ability to run a full DART service with the LHB rolling stock in full use with the added pressure of running it with reduced capacity on it's network for a short period of time. This is to allow the Toyko Car Fleet to be out of service for temporary refurbishment work which can be preferably done on a phased work basis. The Toyko DART fleet can be taken out in small tranches of carriages at a time instead of taking out the whole of the fleet at once. This method is realistic because they account for nearly half of the DART fleet in it's full total.

The big elephant in the room is that they have to workaround this issue with the new public consultation that is going to take place early next year. The 10 minute service would probably not be workable at all if this issue is not properly addressed around service implementation from either the NTA or IÉ. They would have give a realistic approach after the consultation is finished to officially give notice to passengers when they begin the new service.

Another thing for IÉ is that if they order these new trains with at least 100 carriages for use on the Maynooth & Drogheda lines is that they have to be a fleet from a very reputable train manufacturer. It is not going to be good enough to maintain a full DART service with a fleet that is going to have poorly built trains over the course of their use. They need to acquire a reliable & solid set of new carriages that is built to last for a significant amount of time. IÉ have had this problem before when they ordered the 10 CAF DART carriages from Spain which are now just left abandoned at their Fairview Depot. IÉ cannot repeat past mistakes with this current proposal otherwise they will in disaster territory. IÉ might need to get a manufacturer to have these trains purchased in advance & ready to build if this was allowed under Irish law. But they have to tender out for a manufacturer first is that is the case as it is mandatory to do it under EU Law.

If testing of any new DART trains is allowed in Dublin at present; it's current capacity and timetable arrangements is very strained regarding current rail capacity at the Connolly bottleneck. I would be happy if the NTA had plans to lease a bi mode train unit of 4 carriages from different manufacturers just to test it out on the Dublin network for reliability & evaluation purposes with IÉ & manufacturing staff. The NTA could purchase the new DART trains on IÉ's behalf & give it to them as a free gift like what they do with the current Dublin Bus fleet and very soon with Go Ahead's new buses. But the question that surrounds this new proposal is funding for the new fleet. If they have money allocated under the new Irish Government's infrastructure plan which is coming out soon; that will be a welcome development.

IÉ maintenance record is pretty poor as well when discussing the rest of it's fleet. They have a fleet that is quite varied but when a portion of a fleet goes into breakdown territory; they can be left to be mothballed possibly with no further use on the network. They cannot face this ridiculous problem if they have those issues with the new DART fleet apparent within their first week of service. IÉ just need to find new DART carriages that are just mostly able to overcome this problem to make them work every day without encountering further issues.

marno21 wrote: »

I'm not telling you off for being cynical. I can completely understand it but at present, the outlook for infrastructure is more positive than under the last Government.

The issues with infrastructure go beyond party politics here, its an inherent issue with the political system itself. Why would a party spend time on a project when it won't be done for an election in less than 5 years time.

Regarding pro Leo.. I can't see who would do any better, so lets stick with what we have. Micheal Martin is putting plenty of effort into objecting to a motorway required by EU TEN-T regulations, which is going to facilitate the moving of the Port of Cork and the redevelopment of acres upon acres of prime city centre development land in favour of a group of cranks who are trying at all costs to have the motorway stopped. What happens when someone else in his constituency objects to similar critical infrastructure? Or elsewhere?

Are Sinn Fein realistically going to built DART Underground? If they do, where will the money come from to fund their massive proposed socialist welfare state?

Any other suggestions?

Being cynical is easy - I'm not telling you off for it - it was very easy to get cynical in the M20 thread during the Kenny reign. Then you drive the M17/M18 and show that it's possible.

You know Marno, I'm not even being cynical, because you're right - being cynical is easy. I'm being realistic and basing my opinions on the history of the Irish political class mindset in terms of major public transport projects which tend to be rail based.

During this country's richest ever period we promised much and delivered little. Time and again we opted for the cheaper option. Luas itself is a watered down version of a plan proposed over 40 + years ago. We are good at shelling out money on reports, studies, design (both real and conceptual) and even flashy videos. I worked with the late Bill O'Herlihy's company in the 90s on the original promo material for luas. Even then I could see the sheer lack of belief when I met with DOT people.

Don't bring roads into it or even the M20. The M20 will be built before a hole is drilled in the ground for a metro or DU. Any dithering with a road project is just political show boating, but it gets built in the end. However this country and its political leaders that change every so often share one common trait. They are not capable of delivering a real game changing rail project. DART in 1984 was as near as they got and the political interference saddled CIE with unecessary debt that was used as a stick to beat the life out of the broader plan.

CatInABox wrote: »

In fairness, I'd say the desire to dodge a political and budget bullet is what drove the redesign, not the other way around. If they had the money at the time, then they would have gone ahead with it, but now that they do, they can't row back on the redesign without admitting that it was done solely to avoid those tough choices.

Wish they'd just said it's being delayed until we can afford it, would have been much simpler.

Saying we couldn't afford it would have been a lie. In a time when 1000's of construction workers where unemployed this would of saved the tax payers millions , construction companies would have bent over backward to win the tender now we are facing constitution inflation. The EU investment bank has basically being begging us to take out a loan since before 2008.

CatInABox wrote: »

Yeah, we probably could have gotten a loan to build it, and yeah, it definitely would have made economic sense at the time (it still does, of course), but it ignores a political reality that would have made it impossible for any party to support.

No party could add to the countries debt with a project that was, and still is, seen to only benefit Dublin, particularly while hospital beds where being closed all over the country.

Except it doesn't benefit only Dublin...

It says everything about the state of DU that this thread keeps coming back to MN

This will get very messy and I believe there are other sites where there are similar issues. DCC have done the right thing in theory, but ABP could be a different matter as the developer knows damn well that DU is back in planning and technically IE cannot lay claim to the site.

roadmaster wrote: »

I see in the examiner today barry kenny was talking about dart expansion using hyrid electro/diesel trains as discussed here already. He mentions the dart going to Drogheda would that be a bit far for it to go?

It really depends on the frequency.

Heard Barry Kenny on Newstalk news earlier. Short clip but no mention of a requirement to replace the current fleet, rather the selling point was the ability to increase services to Drogheda and Maynooth before/while the lines were being electrified. Nice idea but I want to see the cost/benefit analysis vs just electrify the lines and buy electric-only trains.

Is there any suburban/metro network using hybrid trains in significant numbers or would we be trail-blazers here? A quick google suggests that manufacturers are still at the experimental stage or focusing on using battery power for un-electrified sections.

Bray Head wrote: »

I think what he is saying that any new fleet purchases in the next ten years should be future-proofed to allow for conversion from diesel to electric if there is further electrification in future. I have no idea if this is technically feasible or desireable. 

I have not seen a decent argument made for elecrification of the line to Balbriggan or Drogheda given the loadings and relatively long distance between stations.

The lack of extra platforms or sidings in Balbriggan is a clear issue. In fact it has even less than what Malahide currently has and that's not saying much. Meanwhile Drogheda *already* has a maintenance and driver depot, on top of space to stable Dart trains.

The loadings are terrible north of Balbriggan due to Irish Rail's fare structure and ticket costs are frankly uncompetitive with cheap bus services.

it was mentioned somewhere here before about battery powered and hybrid trains that are coming in the not to distant future. I know Barry Kenny as mentioned said something similar to this that they are looking for but i am talking about full independent battery trains that may come on the market in the next 10 to 20 years. So if they come to the market could we be wasting money putting up cables out to drogheda and maynooth or is the expense in doing it worth it because these battery/Hybrid trains might not show up for 30 years?

Are we assuming that if new lines are electrified that there'll be new stops added along the line. Take the Maynooth line for example, would we see stops close to the city matching the density of Grand Canal Dock, Pearse, Tara, Connolly?