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Attack on female Garda in Dublin

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Shocking incident!

    It's yet another example of how some people aren't at all afraid of the Gardai or the law which is of course worrying.

    It also shows that the public are intimidated these thugs, which we really should not be. Surely there were a few lads in the group of onlookers that could have all went in together to intervene.

    If I was there with my mates I would have got them to help out with me. If I was there on my own and not knowing any of the onlookers I would have at least tried to get a couple of lads to help out before jumping in myself.

    Also, those who were filming the incident (probably to show to their friends or put on youtube) - what a sad/boring/pathetic life you must have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    Gardai receive specialist training to deal with these situations that the rest of us don't have and that is what should take over in these situations. You will find in nearly every emergency situation that a trained emergency service operative will approach it differently to the man on the street.

    That is very true but training is not worth much when you are over-powered as in this case. Before assistance arrived this Garda needed help from members of the public.

    While I dont think differently of someone who decides not to intervene, surely there would have been one or two people who could have stepped in. Maybe not to fight them off but at least let the thugs know the numbers are a bit more even.
    I think people on here saying they'd jump in is macho thoughts. The poor wee girl needs a hand from big strong me.

    Ah now that is a feminist comment and not warranted really. It doesnt matter if the Garda was female or male, the point is a lone Garda was getting a beating from three people and no one stepped in to help her.

    Not the case. She is a trained police officer and the people wanting to jump in are wannabes. It may work once, twice but it needs to be discouraged as someone will get hurt really badly and it will do the reputation of AGS no end of harm and will lead to a well wisher in a hospital bed or worse. WITHOUT the medical insurance, support structure, death on duty benefits of a member.

    Leave the heroics to those trained for it.

    Gardai are not heros nor are we trained to be. We are people who try to enforce the law to keep communities safe which begs the question:

    Why shouldnt a member of the public help a Garda to continue keeping that community safe?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Smcgie


    The old fashioned Commanding officers are of no lesser evil than the scum that committed this crime. Why are members of AGS not armed with mace pepper spray, tazer gun.
    Waken up Murphy were in the 21st century you clown!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,548 ✭✭✭Draupnir


    I can't understand why anyone would say the Garda need to be machines that are capable of fighting of gangs in self defence in order to do a good job. It is a terrible indictment of the state of our society if regular police officers on the street are required to have these kind of skills.

    Furthermore, that a member, or many of them, of the public wouldn't at least break up this kind of thing and pull the Garda to safety is a horrendous state of affairs. Young girl getting bashed by knackers is fair game because she is wearing a uniform?

    The sad thing is, this Garda would probably be first to break up something like this if the situation was reversed and that would be the expected response.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    Well, it is drilled into us from every angle not to put ourselves at risk and leave it to the professionals.

    If you see a suspicious item, don't carry it outside.

    Don't approach certain wanted people as they are believed to be dangerous.

    I am a bank official and was taught that under no circumstances should I attack, chase or interfere with the exit of a raider.

    I just don't see where the line is drawn if people are encouraged to get involved with law enforcement. And I'd be interested to know what the outcome would be if a have a go hero were to be injured off work.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    Smcgie wrote: »
    The old fashioned Commanding officers are of no lesser evil than the scum that committed this crime. Why are members of AGS not armed with mace pepper spray, tazer gun.
    Waken up Murphy were in the 21st century you clown!

    Pepper spray is needed and the Commisioner knows that. At the moment it has been sanctioned and is on the way. I dont know why we dont have the pepper spray yet but its probably down to having to order 14,000 units or training or budgetary constraints.

    And believe me Facthna Murphy is no clown. My opinion is he has done more for the AGS since he came into office than any Commissioner I can think of.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    Well, it is drilled into us from every angle not to put ourselves at risk and leave it to the professionals.

    If you see a suspicious item, don't carry it outside.

    Don't approach certain wanted people as they are believed to be dangerous.

    I am a bank official and was taught that under no circumstances should I attack, chase or interfere with the exit of a raider.

    I just don't see where the line is drawn if people are encouraged to get involved with law enforcement. And I'd be interested to know what the outcome would be if a have a go hero were to be injured off work.

    That is what companies say to their employees so as to wash their hands of you if you did happen to intervene and get injured. It means you dont have a leg to stand on if you try to sue for injuries sustained and rightly so say in your job. If a raider comes into your bank he is there for money and nothing else. He doesnt want to hurt people intentionally cos he wants to get in and out as quickly as possible.

    However my up-bringing I was always told by my parents that if someone is in need of help, help them as much as you can so there is a difference between theft of property and a person getting a beating in broad daylight.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I walk by there every day and there is constant drug deals going on. They have people spotting on the garda so once one comes walking along. They just hide.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    I just don't see where the line is drawn if people are encouraged to get involved with law enforcement. And I'd be interested to know what the outcome would be if a have a go hero were to be injured off work.

    It is a principle of our legal system that every citizen is responsible for helping to maintain law and order. So much so that there is a rarely used offence at common law (not sure if it's ever been used in Ireland) of failure to assist a constable to prevent a breach of the peace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Smcgie


    TheNog wrote: »
    Pepper spray is needed and the Commisioner knows that. At the moment it has been sanctioned and is on the way. I dont know why we dont have the pepper spray yet but its probably down to having to order 14,000 units or training or budgetary constraints.

    And believe me Facthna Murphy is no clown. My opinion is he has done more for the AGS since he came into office than any Commissioner I can think of.

    Its a total dictatorship.. Members have no freedom of speech to the upper levels. Yes murphy has set up agency like CAB but if you think of AGS Being run as a company and Murphy is the MD then he would be sacked long ago..

    No mace for members
    No tazers for members
    No high speed pursuit cars
    No ANPRS
    No proper computer databases
    Old fashioned training.

    Compair like with like to the UK police force and AGS are dinosaurs


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    Smcgie wrote: »
    Its a total dictatorship.. Members have no freedom of speech to the upper levels. Yes murphy has set up agency like CAB but if you think of AGS Being run as a company and Murphy is the MD then he would be sacked long ago..

    No mace for members
    No tazers for members
    No high speed pursuit cars
    No ANPRS
    No proper computer databases
    Old fashioned training.

    Compair like with like to the UK police force and AGS are dinosaurs

    Not true

    Pepper spray has already been issued to specialised units with more units on the way for uniformed members

    Tazers have already been issued again to specialised units and there is talk of the commissioner considering the uniformed members too

    Pursuit cars - traffic has 3L Mondeos

    ANPR was brought in last November

    Computer databases - we have PULSE while not always great is there. Any other databases such as Motor Tax office and Insurance are not accessible to us at present though Facthna has asked the Insurance companies to come on board with us. He cannt mae them do it

    Old fashioned Policing - we should never turn our backs on old fashioned policing. Of course embrace new technologies but they are not the bee all and end all


  • Registered Users Posts: 502 ✭✭✭itsallaboutme!!


    Well, it is drilled into us from every angle not to put ourselves at risk and leave it to the professionals.

    If you see a suspicious item, don't carry it outside.

    Don't approach certain wanted people as they are believed to be dangerous.

    I am a bank official and was taught that under no circumstances should I attack, chase or interfere with the exit of a raider.

    I just don't see where the line is drawn if people are encouraged to get involved with law enforcement. And I'd be interested to know what the outcome would be if a have a go hero were to be injured off work.

    nobody asks you to get involved in law enforcement but that girl got a hiding and people like you stood by and watched.

    gardai are not trained to be street fighters with super powers that enable them to fend off groups of scum who decide to attack alone person be they male or female.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Well, it is drilled into us from every angle not to put ourselves at risk and leave it to the professionals.

    If you see a suspicious item, don't carry it outside.

    Don't approach certain wanted people as they are believed to be dangerous.

    I am a bank official and was taught that under no circumstances should I attack, chase or interfere with the exit of a raider.

    I just don't see where the line is drawn if people are encouraged to get involved with law enforcement. And I'd be interested to know what the outcome would be if a have a go hero were to be injured off work.

    And in the case of a bank raid, by all means let them go. Its a different case to assisting a person in trouble.

    True the line is incredibly blurred and people are never encouraged to intervene but what I always go by is if that was me , would I want me to give me a hand....


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    civdef wrote: »
    It is a principle of our legal system that every citizen is responsible for helping to maintain law and order. So much so that there is a rarely used offence at common law (not sure if it's ever been used in Ireland) of failure to assist a constable to prevent a breach of the peace.

    If I were present, the heart might rule the head and I would behave differently.

    Having time to think about it, there is no way I could endorse getting involved beyond phoning 999.

    We are talking about junkies and scum of the highest order. Who understands what to do if they get bitten or covered in the blood of the criminal?

    Is there anything in the statute books which deals with someone who suffers injury as a result of assisting this constable as there is plenty to cover the constable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    It's also the case that it's far better if numbers of people intervene rather than just one.

    This happened in a busy area - what would the scummer's response have been if twenty concerned citizens sharted shouting and moving towards them? They'd have ran away.

    It shouldn't be left to individuals to step up and intervene, every able bodied person should be willing to help where needed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Is there anything in the statute books which deals with someone who suffers injury as a result of assisting this constable as there is plenty to cover the constable.

    The law has always allowed for the use of reasonable force to defend oneself or someone else. Where a garda (or anyone else) is on the ground taking a beating, the threshold for reasonable force would be fairly high. Do you really see this ending up in court?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Smcgie


    TheNog wrote: »
    Not true

    Pepper spray has already been issued to specialised units with more units on the way for uniformed members

    Tazers have already been issued again to specialised units and there is talk of the commissioner considering the uniformed members too

    Pursuit cars - traffic has 3L Mondeos

    ANPR was brought in last November

    Computer databases - we have PULSE while not always great is there. Any other databases such as Motor Tax office and Insurance are not accessible to us at present though Facthna has asked the Insurance companies to come on board with us. He cannt mae them do it

    Old fashioned Policing - we should never turn our backs on old fashioned policing. Of course embrace new technologies but they are not the bee all and end all

    Can I ask.. Do you not look at our neighboring police force in the UK and wonder why AGS are so far behind. The uk recently issued on the beat members with UV lights so they can identify people that are using cocaine.. Yet we don't even have a machine to stop drivers and test for drug driving at the side of the road.. Why are these things not brought to the front line straight away. Its ludacris and the soon members stand up and demand to be on level par with the likes of the uk police force the sooner murphy will be pushed out.. Its like trying to convince your great granny to use the internet. It doesn't work


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭Rowley Birkin QC


    Absolutely shocking stuff, friend of mine is a member and it made me think of her reading about this attack.

    I was walking home one night and saw a girl getting a box in the jaw from a lad outside the Central Bank, she dropped to the ground and he went to set on her again. I was about 100 yards away but there was loads of people standing around watching.

    I ran up and knocked the guy to the ground, thing is though as soon as I made the first move 3 other lads jumped in to help me keep him and his two lowlife mates there until AGS arrived to take them away, it was a fantastic sight to see them carted off.

    The consequences don't go through your mind when you see a girl getting a slap, especially when you have 3 younger sisters. Those bystanders are culpable in any injuries the member received after the initial assault in my opinion, not legally I know, but morally.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,637 Mod ✭✭✭✭helimachoptor


    civdef wrote: »
    The law has always allowed for the use of reasonable force to defend oneself or someone else. Where a garda (or anyone else) is on the ground taking a beating, the threshold for reasonable force would be fairly high. Do you really see this ending up in court?

    Sadly I would have to say yes.

    And even more worrying the scummer would probably end up getting a payout.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    TheNog wrote: »
    Not true

    Pepper spray has already been issued to specialised units with more units on the way for uniformed members

    Tazers have already been issued again to specialised units and there is talk of the commissioner considering the uniformed members too

    Pursuit cars - traffic has 3L Mondeos

    ANPR was brought in last November

    Computer databases - we have PULSE while not always great is there. Any other databases such as Motor Tax office and Insurance are not accessible to us at present though Facthna has asked the Insurance companies to come on board with us. He cannt mae them do it

    Old fashioned Policing - we should never turn our backs on old fashioned policing. Of course embrace new technologies but they are not the bee all and end all

    I have been back for six years & we were issued the above, bar the Tazer, long before I left the Met. For a country that is less than an hours travel to the UK, Ireland is incredibly slow in issuing safety equipment to its officers.

    I would agree with Smcgie in that Ireland, in my opinion, is about eight years behind the UK in these matters when it shouldn't be. Ireland may be a smaller country, however the crime is the same when you look at it albiet the UK has a much bigger terrorist threat which has no bearing on the basic safety equipment needed here.

    This thread or here or here talking about where cutbacks are going. Or this about safety due to back up response times.... or this one re injuries while on duty.

    These would be greatly reduced if the proper equipment was issued, but no, the government as usual promising something and then not producing. Makes me wonder, do they make these promises just to shut the GRA up for a bit.. :rolleyes:

    Just some examples.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    Zambia232 wrote: »
    And in the case of a bank raid, by all means let them go. Its a different case to assisting a person in trouble.

    True the line is incredibly blurred and people are never encouraged to intervene but what I always go by is if that was me , would I want me to give me a hand....

    If someone was starting on me, I'd want someone to hit them round the back of the head with an iron bar.

    Wouldn't be the right thing to happen though.

    People are being very emotive here. And if you are acting in an emotive way in such a situation, you are more likely to be part of the problem than the situation.

    Even the guards on here are posting without realising that people don't have the same level of experience as them. Anyone can steam into a fight. Being able to improve the situation is another matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭Rowley Birkin QC


    If someone was starting on me, I'd want someone to hit them round the back of the head with an iron bar.

    Wouldn't be the right thing to happen though.

    People are being very emotive here. And if you are acting in an emotive way in such a situation, you are more likely to be part of the problem than the situation.

    Even the guards on here are posting without realising that people don't have the same level of experience as them. Anyone can steam into a fight. Being able to improve the situation is another matter.

    I'm sorry Terrontress but that is absolute boll0cks. Anyone wading into that assault would have immediately taken the focus of the attack away from the Garda.

    You're right in saying that it's emotive though, we are talking about someone being set upon by 3 scumbags and people not intervening, could it be anything other than emotive?

    My mam is a bank official and I fully agree that ye should never get involved in a raid, however that's the banks fully insured cash, wouldn't bother me in the slightest to see the money walk out the door as long as no one has been hurt.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    Even the guards on here are posting without realising that people don't have the same level of experience as them. Anyone can steam into a fight. Being able to improve the situation is another matter.

    There are a lot of people (civilians) out there who are just as equally competent as a Garda, trained in conflict management whether it be self defence or talking down a situation or both. There are courses out there and they are not limited to AGS.

    The fact of the matter is there are people out there willing to assist Gardai in these situations and there are those who choose not to.

    A person may assist by just simply phoning the emergency services, they may film or photograph the incident and hand over the footage/images after to assist in the evidence gathering or may take a physical stance on it and give a statement after for any potential court proceedings that may take place at a later stage.

    A competent person wouldn't "steam" into a situation, they would assess it prior to making a decision for their own safety.

    It is also clear to me that a lot more Gardai will probably be subjected to serious assaults before the government get their finger out and supply proper safety equipment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Whitewater-AGS


    The talk of motorbike helmets and having a go is as stupid as the post about women not being up to the task?

    Why? Training.

    Gardai receive specialist training to deal with these situations that the rest of us don't have and that is what should take over in these situations. You will find in nearly every emergency situation that a trained emergency service operative will approach it differently to the man on the street.

    I think people on here saying they'd jump in is macho thoughts. The poor wee girl needs a hand from big strong me.

    Not the case. She is a trained police officer and the people wanting to jump in are wannabes. It may work once, twice but it needs to be discouraged as someone will get hurt really badly and it will do the reputation of AGS no end of harm and will lead to a well wisher in a hospital bed or worse. WITHOUT the medical insurance, support structure, death on duty benefits of a member.

    Leave the heroics to those trained for it.

    Your posts are pure crazy!
    By your logic nobody should get involved in anything unless they are trained to deal with it. So I should never stop and offer medical assistence to someone as i'm not a doc or emt, nor should I aid someone having difficultly in water as i'm not a lifeguard or a member of the RNLI or even help someone broken down on the side of the road!

    Thankfully this is not how the real world works as a garda I often get involved in situations i'm not trainned for and you view of gardai being some one man hollywood style matrial arts killing machine couldn't be more wrong.

    Its a bad reflection of society that nobody came to the garda's aid, sadly in my experience people are only too willing to help when a number of gardai are struggling with a suspect, its the suspect they try help though!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    Your posts are pure crazy!
    By your logic nobody should get involved in anything unless they are trained to deal with it. So I should never stop and offer medical assistence to someone as i'm not a doc or emt, nor should I aid someone having difficultly in water as i'm not a lifeguard or a member of the RNLI or even help someone broken down on the side of the road!

    Thankfully this is not how the real world works as a garda I often get involved in situations i'm not trainned for and you view of gardai being some one man hollywood style matrial arts killing machine couldn't be more wrong.

    Its a bad reflection of society that nobody came to the garda's aid, sadly in my experience people are only too willing to help when a number of gardai are struggling with a suspect, its the suspect they try help though!

    Obviously the situation determines what action you take.

    You should not stop and try to treat someone who has come off a motorcycle and may have a spinal injury. You should leave it to those trained to do so.

    You should not go out into a swollen river to rescue someone who is being dragged away. You should leave it to those trained to do so.

    You should not get physically involved with three people who are willing to bite people on the face. You should leave it to those trained to do so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    Smcgie wrote: »
    Can I ask.. Do you not look at our neighboring police force in the UK and wonder why AGS are so far behind. The uk recently issued on the beat members with UV lights so they can identify people that are using cocaine.. Yet we don't even have a machine to stop drivers and test for drug driving at the side of the road.. Why are these things not brought to the front line straight away. Its ludacris and the soon members stand up and demand to be on level par with the likes of the uk police force the sooner murphy will be pushed out.. Its like trying to convince your great granny to use the internet. It doesn't work
    Trojan911 wrote: »
    I have been back for six years & we were issued the above, bar the Tazer, long before I left the Met. For a country that is less than an hours travel to the UK, Ireland is incredibly slow in issuing safety equipment to its officers.

    I would agree with Smcgie in that Ireland, in my opinion, is about eight years behind the UK in these matters when it shouldn't be. Ireland may be a smaller country, however the crime is the same when you look at it albiet the UK has a much bigger terrorist threat which has no bearing on the basic safety equipment needed here.

    This thread or here or here talking about where cutbacks are going. Or this about safety due to back up response times.... or this one re injuries while on duty.

    These would be greatly reduced if the proper equipment was issued, but no, the government as usual promising something and then not producing. Makes me wonder, do they make these promises just to shut the GRA up for a bit.. :rolleyes:

    Just some examples.

    I absolutely agree with both of ye regarding equipment. Never did argue with ye on it and Im the first one to complain about it.

    My point is that is not the fault of Facthna Murphy. He inherited alot of the reactive policing from previous governments and commissioners. Seeing as he is only in office since November 2007. I can tell you things have changed and are changing for the better within the organisation. There is still a long way to go but we are moving in the right direction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    TheNog wrote: »
    There is still a long way to go but we are moving in the right direction.

    That's good to hear, however, it's a shame these safety issues could not be prioritised. How many more serious assaults are going to occur between now and when CS is issued?

    I have no stats but I would put pound to penny that it would cost the State more with payouts to injured officers and officers being off duty (long term sick) than it would to payout for CS spray or at least get a lot more of it distributed out to frontline officers & when I say frontline I mean those who are not permanently in offices, CCTV rooms or court duty etc.

    What excactly are the GRA doing anyway? Why are they not making this their No1: priority, or are they? I haven't heard any noise coming from their camp for a while.

    To a degree, I'm not blaming Factna Murphy, however, he is in the top position, akin to a politician, but still nearly two years later in office no sign of CS, just the usual talk.

    Sure, the vests, ASP's & cuffs have been distributed but in my opinion, the CS & radio system should have been included in that package as they all fall into the safety bracket.

    It is clear to me that the government couldn't really give a monkeys because if they did AGS would be sufficiently equipped. The back burner springs to mind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 502 ✭✭✭itsallaboutme!!


    Obviously the situation determines what action you take.

    You should not stop and try to treat someone who has come off a motorcycle and may have a spinal injury. You should leave it to those trained to do so.

    You should not go out into a swollen river to rescue someone who is being dragged away. You should leave it to those trained to do so.

    You should not get physically involved with three people who are willing to bite people on the face. You should leave it to those trained to do so.

    so if someone you know was being attacked, drowning, involved in an accident are you willing to stand by and do nothing??

    im a girl and if i came across a situation obviously i would first ring the appropriate emergency service but then i would not have to think twice about about trying to help someone. i could not live with my conscience if i stood by and watched someone in trouble and i didn't bother helping because i wasn't TRAINED to do something


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    so if someone you know was being attacked, drowning, involved in an accident are you willing to stand by and do nothing??

    im a girl and if i came across a situation obviously i would first ring the appropriate emergency service but then i would not have to think twice about about trying to help someone. i could not live with my conscience if i stood by and watched someone in trouble and i didn't bother helping because i wasn't TRAINED to do something

    First of all, I did not mention anything about it being someone I know. I am sure nobody at the scene knew the Garda in question personally.

    As for what I'd be prepared to do, I have given three situations above where I think it best to await people with expert training and could think of dozens more. History is littered with people who have endangered themselves and others or have made the situation worse by blundering cack-handed into a situation that they are not qualified to.

    Given your responses so far, I hope you never, ever come upon anyone in trouble.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35 gdamedic


    mike kelly wrote: »
    I think that female gardai are absolutely useless.

    only men should be hired as guards.

    Very narrow minded to say the least. You'd be glad to see a female member coming to your assistance if you needed it


This discussion has been closed.
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