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Free Travel Pass being Scanned on Bus Eireann

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Comments

  • #92
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    You must place card to the top part of the machine where it has a white surround and a picture of a green LEAP card.

    Do not swipe or just flash the card past as the machines are very slow and need at times at least a second to read the card.

    The bottom part you placed it on has the display to tell you if in case of Leap that you have days left on rambler or cash credit loaded and also the daily cap.

    You are not the 1st or last to do exactly as you said.

    The cards are a much much better system but still open to abuse as it now is possible to just scan and leave card in a wallet or tag on so driver no longer gets to see if it is actually ones card.

    This 80 strong team of new checkers cough cough drivers will only be out in small numbers at any one time so it really is not going to impact on the absolute rubbish that is going on out there.
    They took on 80 for the checkers panel?! Or is there a special "RPU-only" checker panel?


  • #93
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,236 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    This 80 strong team of new checkers cough cough drivers will only be out in small numbers at any one time so it really is not going to impact on the absolute rubbish that is going on out there.
    Buses through Rathmines on Thursday morning were inspected twice. The claim was 25 RPU staff on duty for Rathmines only.

    I've had my ticket checked twice in the last month and about 4 times in the previous 20 years.


  • #94
    FanadMan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭FanadMan


    Victor wrote: »
    Buses through Rathmines on Thursday morning were inspected twice. The claim was 25 RPU staff on duty for Rathmines only.

    I've had my ticket checked twice in the last month and about 4 times in the previous 20 years.

    In the last year I've had my my FTP checked 5 times - three times on LUAS and twice on IE. Apart from one horrible one on IE, they were grand.

    Am looking forward to being checked with my new card - pic has me not wearing thick ugly glasses so I don't look my normal self :D


  • #95
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Victor wrote: »
    Buses through Rathmines on Thursday morning were inspected twice. The claim was 25 RPU staff on duty for Rathmines only.

    I've had my ticket checked twice in the last month and about 4 times in the previous 20 years.

    Increases in visible Ticket Checking procedures of this magnitude are what's intended.

    No Transport entity anywhere,will pre-warn customers of when,where and at what intensity their Revenue Protection will operate at.

    Dublin Bus,however is at a disadvantage in that over the past 2 decades,Revenue Protection was not practised in any meaningful form.

    Thus there was rarely more than a single RP Team in action to cover a 900 vehicle peak allocation.

    This led to a situation whereby significant numbers of customers felt that there was NO requirement to pay the correct fare or to behave in a responsible manner when travelling.

    Many people still regard the new RP arrangements as being about "Catching" evaders or other Confrontational situations.

    The reality,initially,is one of increased visibility of Revenue Units across the Bus Network,something,as Victor notes,IS happening.
    This initial visibility will in turn lead to greater numbers of non-compliant people becoming aware that there is now a RISK of being apprehended and of having a penalty applied to them.

    Peak Time customers can expect to,at the very least SEE a Revenue Check in operation on their commute,if not actually being checked themselves...The Visibility of Ticket Checking is the point.

    THAT is new territory for Dublin Bus users,but is already being welcomed by many compliant customers who,quite rightly speak of being fed-up paying for those who freeload on everybody else.

    The next step,as I would see it,is for a greater level of Multi-Operator co-operation,already envisaged by the NTA,alongside an expansion of Plain-Clothes checking which tends to be very prevalent in other European systems.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #96
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The next step,as I would see it,is for a greater level of Multi-Operator co-operation,already envisaged by the NTA,alongside an expansion of Plain-Clothes checking which tends to be very prevalent in other European systems.

    In fairness plain clothes checkers probably aren't required on Dublin Bus given the one nature of the service. Even when DB uses two doors, the rear door is operated by the driver, so they can keep it closed while the RPU staff are boarding. In this case it is actually better to use high visibility, uniformed staff to help get the word out that active ticket checking is being done.

    On the other hand plain clothes makes a lot of sense on Luas and future BRT given the multi-door operations.

    I have to say, I'm absolutely delighted to see this increase in RPU staff across the network. Well done DB/NTA


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  • #97
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    bk wrote: »
    In fairness plain clothes checkers probably aren't required on Dublin Bus given the one nature of the service. Even when DB uses two doors, the rear door is operated by the driver, so they can keep it closed while the RPU staff are boarding. In this case it is actually better to use high visibility, uniformed staff to help get the word out that active ticket checking is being done.

    On the other hand plain clothes makes a lot of sense on Luas and future BRT given the multi-door operations.

    I have to say, I'm absolutely delighted to see this increase in RPU staff across the network. Well done DB/NTA
    Worth remembering, the "single" door vehicles have an easy-to-open emergency exit at the back seat. Especially with the VTs where there is quite some distance between the back seat and the door. And for the double-door buses, the emergency open button is an option although easier to have inspectors near the door or to see someone trying to open it.


  • #98
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #99
    lulu1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭lulu1


    Went on bus eireann from Dublin to Tipp last week and back again. Held up my companion pass to both drivers who never even looked at it or scanned it as far as I could see.

    They just said grand no hassle at all.


  • #100
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    For the last month or so there were signs up saying CIE staff/drivers could not take the new social welfare free travel cards even if the person using the card is not the owner/official user.

    This has now been changed as it was one of the stupidest things I have ever seen them come out with.

    Staff can now confiscate a card if it is been misused.

    This is a very different stance to a month or so ago and about time.

    Just in case anyone was interested thought would post on here.


  • #101
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    For the last month or so there were signs up saying CIE staff/drivers could not take the new social welfare free travel cards even if the person using the card is not the owner/official user.

    This has now been changed as it was one of the stupidest things I have ever seen them come out with.

    Staff can now confiscate a card if it is been misused.

    This is a very different stance to a month or so ago and about time.

    Just in case anyone was interested thought would post on here.

    Who is responsible for the signs? are they official memos from management? is the author named or can it be found out who they are so that they can be made accountable for the rubbish they put into the signs?


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  • #102
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Hi foggy if I can I'll take a picture.

    It is coming straight from the social and then hr in head office make up a poster.

    Saw one of the new ones put up with the old beside it so if you looked at 1 it would cancel the other so you wouldn't have a clue which is correct.

    It is a good measure to bring in and at least make it a little more difficult but not impossible to still abuse the system unless checked by checkers as the driver can be very limited as being in control of the bus and trying to watch everything else going on.


  • #103
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Hi foggy if I can I'll take a picture.

    It is coming straight from the social and then hr in head office make up a poster.

    Saw one of the new ones put up with the old beside it so if you looked at 1 it would cancel the other so you wouldn't have a clue which is correct.

    It is a good measure to bring in and at least make it a little more difficult but not impossible to still abuse the system unless checked by checkers as the driver can be very limited as being in control of the bus and trying to watch everything else going on.

    So SW said they can't be taken when abused why oh why
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #104
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Gatling wrote: »
    So SW said they can't be taken when abused why oh why


    At the start yes they said do not take even if not their pass.

    Now this changed 2days ago to now they can be taken if been abused by a non authorized person.

    If its not your card it can be confiscated but only from a few days ago.


  • #105
    redmicky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭redmicky


    bk wrote: »
    In fairness plain clothes checkers probably aren't required on Dublin Bus given the one nature of the service. Even when DB uses two doors, the rear door is operated by the driver, so they can keep it closed while the RPU staff are boarding.

    Off course they are needed, when the bus is coming up to a stop you can see the ticket checkers standing there in high vis vests, the usual suspects then get off the bus before their ticket is checked.
    Plain clothes ticket inspectors would catch a lot more people not paying the correct fare.


  • #106
    redmicky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭redmicky


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Who is responsible for the signs? are they official memos from management? is the author named or can it be found out who they are so that they can be made accountable for the rubbish they put into the signs?

    The social welfare made the rule no confiscation of free travel passes, NTA had no problem with this.
    (Put on tin foil hat) It would appear everything possible was being done to make Dublin Bus unprofitable to make it a easier sell to the public the plan to privatise it. The 10% of routes was going to be a start to get it off and running, but that has all gone very quite. Why i asked and was told it was because of the strike, apparently the unions have managed to get a minimum wage, standard of work conditions for bus drivers.
    We also had the madness of Dublin Bus paying to train up drivers to then hand them over to private operators ready to go. Public money used to train drivers to work for the private operators of the 10%, very suspect no?
    The NTA and private operators had planned to pay minimum wage and now that the plan has been scuppered the interest in taking on the 10% has dropped.
    So it looks like the NTA has to get serious with funding Dublin Bus and will be actually doing there job to protect revenue.


  • #107
    redmicky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭redmicky


    alane20 wrote: »
    The wayfarer machine is used by the driver for companion & spouse passes, a paper ticket is issued by the driver for the person travelling with the pass holder, the new sw passes have a 5 year validity and have to be renewed every 5 years, when pass holder dies and sw are notafied they can block the pass on computer, so the days of granny's pass been handed down in the will are gone

    Years more of fraud are ahead of us.
    You see a old woman get on the bus with her daughter, the old woman shows her paper pass and the daughter buys a ticket.
    Now the old woman gets on the bus with a new credit card pass and low and behold the daughter is now showing a paper pass. Wonder where she got that from?


  • #108
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Hi foggy if I can I'll take a picture.

    It is coming straight from the social and then hr in head office make up a poster.

    Saw one of the new ones put up with the old beside it so if you looked at 1 it would cancel the other so you wouldn't have a clue which is correct.

    It is a good measure to bring in and at least make it a little more difficult but not impossible to still abuse the system unless checked by checkers as the driver can be very limited as being in control of the bus and trying to watch everything else going on.

    I would imagine the main reason they said not to confiscate the new passes is because they are not only passes now, they are the owners social welfare card which they would use for collecting any weekly payment they get and being left without it might create a financial burden on the actual owner who may or may not be the person presenting the card for travel.

    What we must remember is that most older people play by the rules but often they are left at the mercy of unscrupulous relatives who will take their pass for their own use. What can the older person do if they are reliant on this other person for day to day living etc?


  • #109
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    I would imagine the main reason they said not to confiscate the new passes is because they are not only passes now, they are the owners social welfare card which they would use for collecting any weekly payment they get and being left without it might create a financial burden on the actual owner who may or may not be the person presenting the card for travel.

    What we must remember is that most older people play by the rules but often they are left at the mercy of unscrupulous relatives who will take their pass for their own use. What can the older person do if they are reliant on this other person for day to day living etc?



    The pass can be given back to the real owner quite quickly.

    If you had your credit card stolen would you like to let the other person keep using it.

    If you want to use any public transport then one should have to obide by the rules and laws like everyone else.


  • #110
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,131 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Your card your responsibility

    Giving your card to someone else is almost certainly an offence

    Claiming another persons social welfare benefits is an offence

    Confiscate, questions later


    The transport operators needed a clear guidance on the protocol for retaining a pass (bear in mind its the only evidence of fare evasion). Fraud with the new card will be much lower due the smartcard element and photograph.

    Won't be long before the paper pass is killed off.


  • #111
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    I have already come across a number of new cards that have been tampered with as to disable the chip so as to validate on transport but the magnetic strip for welfare still works.

    Had a guy showing me his blue dot one yesterday along with his prison identification and the same story for the last 2 months he only got out today.

    The new system can, is and will be abused and until there are proper full time checkers this will never stop.


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  • #112
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,236 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    redmicky wrote: »
    The social welfare made the rule no confiscation of free travel passes, NTA had no problem with this.
    (Put on tin foil hat) It would appear everything possible was being done to make Dublin Bus unprofitable to make it a easier sell to the public the plan to privatise it. The 10% of routes was going to be a start to get it off and running, but that has all gone very quite. Why i asked and was told it was because of the strike, apparently the unions have managed to get a minimum wage, standard of work conditions for bus drivers.
    We also had the madness of Dublin Bus paying to train up drivers to then hand them over to private operators ready to go. Public money used to train drivers to work for the private operators of the 10%, very suspect no?
    The NTA and private operators had planned to pay minimum wage and now that the plan has been scuppered the interest in taking on the 10% has dropped.
    So it looks like the NTA has to get serious with funding Dublin Bus and will be actually doing there job to protect revenue.
    On-topic, constructive posts only please. No thread hi-jacking.

    Moderator


  • #113
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,236 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    For the last month or so there were signs up saying CIE staff/drivers could not take the new social welfare free travel cards even if the person using the card is not the owner/official user.
    Madness.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    I would imagine the main reason they said not to confiscate the new passes is because they are not only passes now, they are the owners social welfare card which they would use for collecting any weekly payment they get and being left without it might create a financial burden on the actual owner who may or may not be the person presenting the card for travel.

    What we must remember is that most older people play by the rules but often they are left at the mercy of unscrupulous relatives who will take their pass for their own use. What can the older person do if they are reliant on this other person for day to day living etc?
    And what are the chances the abuser is taking other liberties?


  • #114
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    The pass can be given back to the real owner quite quickly.

    If you had your credit card stolen would you like to let the other person keep using it.

    If you want to use any public transport then one should have to obide by the rules and laws like everyone else.

    I agree in some situations the pass is handed over freely and in such situations there has to be a way of suspending the free travel for a period to punish such behaviour, But there are many situations where a card or paper pass will be taken from an older/disabled person without their consent and often without their knowledge and I feel these elderly/disabled people should not be made pay for the criminality and personal abuse of their relatives or whoever is taking their pass.


  • #115
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    I agree in some situations the pass is handed over freely and in such situations there has to be a way of suspending the free travel for a period to punish such behaviour, But there are many situations where a card or paper pass will be taken from an older/disabled person without their consent and often without their knowledge and I feel these elderly/disabled people should not be made pay for the criminality and personal abuse of their relatives or whoever is taking their pass.



    100% agree and fully get your point.

    Hopefully that isn't happening to many.


  • #116
    redmicky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭redmicky


    Talking to a driver earlier, and his attitude towards the misuse of Free travel pass was he could not care less. Let the NTA sort out the mess with the social welfare, everyone and their granny has a pass. There are that many different types of tickets/passes he said he don't know what the passengers are waving in front of him when they get on the bus. Why would he check the tickets, only leads to arguments and he don't need that.
    Said ticket checking is a joke, only office hours, inspectors get on 1 or 2 stops from the start of a route knowing as long as passenger has minimum fare ticket they are good to go, rarely see inspector beyond this point of a route.
    He said ticket machines are useless, need upgrade to modern version then make everyone tag on and off, only way to get passengers to pay correct fare.


  • #117
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Nermal


    The complexity, opportunities for fraud, whinging and institutional incompetence on display in this thread is incredible.

    Just scrap the free passes scheme entirely and add whatever you save onto welfare benefits.

    Might have the benefit of shrinking protests and open drug dealing in the city centre, so that those of us paying for this stuff don't have to encounter it.


  • #118
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,236 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Nermal wrote: »
    Just scrap the free passes scheme entirely and add whatever you save onto welfare benefits.
    Aside from the issue of the DSP not paying anywhere near market price for the service provided (market price less a hefty bulk discount would be appropriate), the free travel pass isn't a zero-sum gain - the cash would be worth much less to people than the FTP.
    redmicky wrote: »
    Talking to a driver earlier, and his attitude towards the misuse of Free travel pass was he could not care less. Let the NTA sort out the mess with the social welfare, everyone and their granny has a pass. There are that many different types of tickets/passes he said he don't know what the passengers are waving in front of him when they get on the bus. Why would he check the tickets, only leads to arguments and he don't need that.
    That sounds like a individual problem, not a system problem.
    Said ticket checking is a joke, only office hours, inspectors get on 1 or 2 stops from the start of a route knowing as long as passenger has minimum fare ticket they are good to go, rarely see inspector beyond this point of a route.
    I've only ever seen ticket checking mid-route.
    He said ticket machines are useless, need upgrade to modern version then make everyone tag on and off, only way to get passengers to pay correct fare.
    While I was criticising the new software as quickly as the drivers using it - and bringing the issue to the people who might be able to do something about it, this sounds like a driver who doesn't like hte effort of keeping the bus location up to date on the ticket machine.


  • #119
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Victor wrote: »
    The free travel pass isn't a zero-sum gain - the cash would be worth much less to people than the FTP.

    You'd have to give them something (maybe just on a once-off basis) to force it through without a revolt. But it would be worth it.


  • #120
    alane20
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭alane20


    The new smart card system actually helps free travel fraud, with the old paper pass it had to be shown and there was an opportunity to inspect it or querie the user, I.e where's the photo Id that should be with it, or why does it say Mrs Mary Smith when the passholder is clearly a man ect, now you can keep the pass in your wallet / card holder and just scan when you get on, also the leap card been available to children upto 19 years of age is a joke, yes it should be one with a photo on it but again in your wallet quick scan and up the stairs


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  • #121
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,236 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    alane20 wrote: »
    The new smart card system actually helps free travel fraud, with the old paper pass it had to be shown and there was an opportunity to inspect it or querie the user, I.e where's the photo Id that should be with it,
    The photo ID is now integral.
    or why does it say Mrs Mary Smith when the passholder is clearly a man ect, now you can keep the pass in your wallet / card holder and just scan when you get on,
    The function of the driver is to ensure everyone has ticket - not that everyone has the right ticket. That's the job of the ticket checkers. Dublin bus is going from 4 to 80 ticket checkers.
    also the leap card been available to children upto 19 years of age is a joke, yes it should be one with a photo on it but again in your wallet quick scan and up the stairs
    There is a different beep with child cards.


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