Online petition to amend/revoke new building regs for self builds under BC(A)R SI.9

mandy gall · 13-03-2014 3:31pm

kkelliher wrote: »

It has absolutly nothing to do with jealousy. Its about protection of a profession. I am sure dentists, doctors and any other regulated profession would not welcome a reg that would allow some people with no qualifications doing the same job as them but with no requirement to be regulated, or trained in what they are doing.

Whatever about the rights and wrongs of a piece of legislation you cant in any way believe that it can be right to have two separate systems, one for professional builders and one for self builders. QUOTE]

The regs MUST include all sectors. You are implying that self builders are clueless regarding construction, you must not judge, you must base everything on fact. Seeing as you have mentioned 'qualification' above i would like to point out a fact that Builders are not qualified in anything, only tradesmen are.
You are correct in saying we need one set of regs but i really believe SI9 are not those.

kkelliher · 13-03-2014 4:10pm

mandy gall wrote: »

The regs MUST include all sectors. You are implying that self builders are clueless regarding construction, you must not judge, you must base everything on fact. Seeing as you have mentioned 'qualification' above i would like to point out a fact that Builders are not qualified in anything, only tradesmen are.
You are correct in saying we need one set of regs but i really believe SI9 are not those.

I am implying that Self Builders in the main are not qualified and or experienced to run, manage and control the construction of a building. If they generally are well I guess we could do away with alot of college courses (and 4 years of my life). I have at no stage said they were clueless and nor have I implied such.

I can factually stated without hesitation that my envolvement in at least 20 self build properties in the last 5 years confirm to me without question that "self builders" are not adequatly trained, or experienced to carry out this role. Pasion, dedication, time, blood, sweat, tears and desire does not constitiute training and experience. In respect to builders I agree alot may not have any qualifications, but then the vast majority will be trained in a trade and or will have vast site experience. It is fully accepted that all builders need to continue to educate in terms of the new and progressing forms of building.

kkelliher · 13-03-2014 4:13pm

mandy gall wrote: »

You are correct in saying we need one set of regs but i really believe SI9 are not those.

This goes to the heart of the issue. I fail to see how anyone believes you can have a system to suit both sides ie self builders and general builders without one side having to give something extra which at present is self builders having to employ a builder and professional certification.

As I stated I am neither for or against the present situation as I dont have any direct stake in it, but I have yet to see any real alternative proposed by any side that makes sence.

mandy gall · 13-03-2014 4:27pm

kkelliher wrote: »

This goes to the heart of the issue. I fail to see how anyone believes you can have a system to suit both sides ie self builders and general builders without one side having to give something extra which at present is self builders having to employ a builder and professional certification.

As I stated I am neither for or against the present situation as I dont have any direct stake in it, but I have yet to see any real alternative proposed by any side that makes sence.

Well i hope you understand that we do have a direct stake in this present situation and these regs prohibit self build and i disagree with you re: the right to build a home. I truly believe that building a home should not be reserved for a privileged few. We all have a right to own a home. The SI9 place a restriction on that right. How many men are going to be depressed (or God forbid suicidal) knowing they will never ever be able to own a home. It is a real worry. Not every self builder would be 'competent' but then again not every builder is 'competent' either. That is why a register of tradespeople available at each local authority would be a more credible system, a register of people who actually can prove they are qualified.

sydthebeat · 13-03-2014 4:50pm

mandy gall wrote: »

Well i hope you understand that we do have a direct stake in this present situation and these regs prohibit self build and i disagree with you re: the right to build a home. I truly believe that building a home should not be reserved for a privileged few. We all have a right to own a home. The SI9 place a restriction on that right. How many men are going to be depressed (or God forbid suicidal) knowing they will never ever be able to own a home. It is a real worry. Not every self builder would be 'competent' but then again not every builder is 'competent' either. That is why a register of tradespeople available at each local authority would be a more credible system, a register of people who actually can prove they are qualified.

ah now lets be a little less hyperbolic (and bring suicide into it is totally over the top)

SI 9 does NOT remove a right to own your own home so please clarify what you mean.
nor does it make building a home the reserve of the privileged.

There is NOTHING in the regulations stopping anyone from working and getting their hands dirty on their own build.
It simply says that if you want to you must work under the supervision of a proper competent person.
It places a standard on the constructors of the a home, which, its hard to argue, is a bad thing.

I do agree that in the absence of a register for "qualified" builders (ie third level graduated from a building contracting / project management course), its foundation-less.

martinn123 · 13-03-2014 5:05pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

There is NOTHING in the regulations stopping anyone from working and getting their hands dirty on their own build.
It simply says that if you want to you must work under the supervision of a proper competent person.
It places a standard on the constructors of the a home, which, its hard to argue, is a bad thing.

I guess we need perhaps to tease out exactly what the Self Builder wants to do.
To ''Project manage'' to purchase the materials, to negotiate prices with the various trades, and to co-ordinate activity.

rather than pay the above PLUS a margin to a Contractor who will do the same tasks.

Few unless they are qualified will want to lay blocks, plaster walls or lay electric cables.

So the saving in terms of the Contractors margin is the savings, I think, Mandy is referring to as putting the project out of financial reach.

So if the Certfyer is willing to work, close, in advising the Technical Issues on the build, and the Owner can carry out the tasks as above, ensuring the house meets Reg's, then the only issue is the signature on the Builders Cert which is still in contention.

sydthebeat · 13-03-2014 5:14pm

martinn123 wrote: »

I guess we need perhaps to tease out exactly what the Self Builder wants to do.
To ''Project manage'' to purchase the materials, to negotiate prices with the various trades, and to co-ordinate activity.

rather than pay the above PLUS a margin to a Contractor who will do the same tasks.

Few unless they are qualified will want to lay blocks, plaster walls or lay electric cables.

So the saving in terms of the Contractors margin is the savings, I think, Mandy is referring to as putting the project out of financial reach.

So if the Certfyer is willing to work, close, in advising the Technical Issues on the build, and the Owner can carry out the tasks as above, ensuring the house meets Reg's, then the only issue is the signature on the Builders Cert which is still in contention.

its actually simple

It all comes down to responsibility.

Who should be responsible for compliance with building regulations?
A novice self builder who is learning a hell of a lot 'on the job' or a competent builder supervising him/her?

The builder doesnt have to even do any work, but they MUST supervise the on site trades.

Its this supervision and on site instruction that provides the responsibility.

The main difference between this responsibility and the assigned certifiers responsibility is because the builder is required to be on site to supervise, or to ensure a competent person working uinder them, is on site to supervise.

An assigned certifier simply cannot be on site to supervise all the time.
Even as the regs currently are, they are required to 'inspect' at a frequency commensurate to the degree of difficulty of the build.

mandy gall · 13-03-2014 5:32pm

These regs PROHIBIT self build. Self build is gone now. You must employ a contractor, certifier, supervisor etc.. this is the opposite to what a self build is. SI9 have removed our right to own a home by forcing us to do the above. Costing double what we can afford to do. If you heard Morning Ireland on Friday, Feb. 28 there was a very, very depressed carpenter talking about these regs and how they will affect him and his family. You cant tell me im being OTT re suicide. These issues are actually affecting us - real families - right now. I would ask you not to be so flippant about such serious topics.
All construction workers who can prove their qualifications are welcome to register on Mandy's List!

martinn123 · 13-03-2014 5:35pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

its actually simple

It all comes down to responsibility.

Who should be responsible for compliance with building regulations?
A novice self builder who is learning a hell of a lot 'on the job' or a competent builder supervising him/her?

The builder doesnt have to even do any work, but they MUST supervise the on site trades.

Its this supervision and on site instruction that provides the responsibility.

Agreed, however unless it's a Major Building Contractor, who employs all the trades ''in house'' what Contractor has the competency to supervise, Electrician, Plumber, Plasterer, Blocklayer, etc. etc. and state with certainty their work is in line with Reg's
What actually happens is that the work is ''subbed out'' to trusted Trades, and the Contractor relies on their ability to do the work.
The Self-Builder wants to do this as well.

The main difference between this responsibility and the assigned certifiers responsibility is because the builder is required to be on site to supervise, or to ensure a competent person working uinder them, is on site to supervise.

An assigned certifier simply cannot be on site to supervise all the time.
Even as the regs currently are, they are required to 'inspect' at a frequency commensurate to the degree of difficulty of the build.

Again agreed, maybe the assigned certifyer needs to attend more often, and get paid, to keep an eye on Technicial Issues, which he is qualified to do.

The responsibility can be shared.

kkelliher · 13-03-2014 5:46pm

mandy gall wrote: »

Well i hope you understand that we do have a direct stake in this present situation and these regs prohibit self build and i disagree with you re: the right to build a home. I truly believe that building a home should not be reserved for a privileged few. We all have a right to own a home. The SI9 place a restriction on that right. How many men are going to be depressed (or God forbid suicidal) knowing they will never ever be able to own a home. It is a real worry. Not every self builder would be 'competent' but then again not every builder is 'competent' either. That is why a register of tradespeople available at each local authority would be a more credible system, a register of people who actually can prove they are qualified.

Having a right to own a home is not the same as having a right to build a home. In most parts of Ireland it is still cheaper to buy a home than build so this right is not effected by the regulations.

you may be in a position to build at present as you have planning but did you get involved with the many people in wicklow, kildare and meath a few years ago who where trying to get people to assist in objection to the local needs section of the planning and development act? There is always a law that effects one section of society and they will shout loudest and in this case this is your section.

In respect to a register no matter what you bring in there will be good and bad on it. All current registers are the same. You will need to root out the bad by having an assessment system of the register on an ongoing basis and in time it should wash out the bad but this will cost and we will all have to pay.

mandy gall · 13-03-2014 5:51pm

Correct right now it's my turn to shout. Should i not make a stand? I will tell my children when they are older and will never be able to afford to build that at least we tried. Life is not worth living if we keep quiet when we know something is wrong and by God SI9 are wrong.

DOCARCH · 13-03-2014 5:52pm

martinn123 wrote: »

Agreed, however unless it's a Major Building Contractor, who employs all the trades ''in house'' what Contractor has the competency to supervise, Electrician, Plumber, Plasterer, Blocklayer, etc. etc. and state with certainty their work is in line with Reg's

Well...actually...under the new regs it is the building contractors legal responsibility to supervise the work, all of the work, and ensure that the works are constructed in accordance with the building regulations.

The assigned certifiers responsibility is to inspect the works, at predetermined stages, outined before the work commences and then confirm, when the works are complete, that they have carried out those inspections.

Simple!

martinn123 · 13-03-2014 5:58pm

DOCARCH wrote: »

Well...actually...under the new regs it is the building contractors legal responsibility to supervise the work, all of the work, and ensure that the works are constructed in accordance with the building regulations.

The assigned certifiers responsibility is to inspect the works, at predetermined stages, outined before the work commences and then confirm, when the works are complete, that they have carried out those inspections.

Simple!

I think you left out a bit, do they not have to ''Certify'' that the works, comply with the Reg's as well??

DOCARCH · 13-03-2014 6:00pm

martinn123 wrote: »

I think you left out a bit, do they not have to ''Certify'' that the works, comply with the Reg's as well??

Who...the builder or the assigned certifier?

The answer is both.

Just to note that a requirement for professional indemnity insurance, for building contractors, is also coming down the tracks!

sydthebeat · 13-03-2014 6:14pm

mandy gall wrote: »

Correct right now it's my turn to shout. Should i not make a stand? I will tell my children when they are older and will never be able to afford to build that at least we tried. Life is not worth living if we keep quiet when we know something is wrong and by God SI9 are wrong.

you will always be view with suspicion if you use this argument... you will be accused of trying to do something "on the cheap"

why not try to argue for a state exam to be included on the CIRI register instead and then you can prove that your husband is competent to build?

4Sticks · 13-03-2014 6:15pm

DOCARCH wrote: »

Just to note that a requirement for professional indemnity insurance, for building contractors, is also coming down the tracks!

there you go Martin123 - extra !

.... only joking

DOCARCH · 13-03-2014 6:29pm

martinn123 wrote: »

...what Contractor has the competency to supervise...

That's partly the point of these regulations. That has to change. The contractor has to get competent or get somebody competent who can supervise! That is the contractors responsibility.

Responsibility under SI 9 has not been just thrown (alone) on to the assigned certifiers lap.

I hope you didn't stop reading after SI 80 2013?

mandy gall · 13-03-2014 7:16pm

Can ye sign the petition please even if ye don't want to

DOCARCH · 13-03-2014 7:35pm

mandy gall wrote: »

Can ye sign the petition please even if ye don't want to

martinn123 · 13-03-2014 7:36pm

4Sticks wrote: »

there you go Martin123 - extra !

.... only joking

I would be happy to pay for this, if only to stop you guys complaining that you are the only ones holding it.

mullingar · 13-03-2014 7:40pm

The petition count is so low

mandy gall · 13-03-2014 7:50pm

mullingar wrote: »

The petition count is so low

Its only a baby. It needs feeding. Do your best to spread the word. It will grow up and kick the s*** out of the SI9.

mullingar · 13-03-2014 8:12pm

mandy gall wrote: »

Its only a baby. It needs feeding. Do your best to spread the word. It will grow up and kick the s*** out of the SI9.

That's just it, if we don't feed it it will die a slow painful death.

Anyone good at developing boards.ie signatures ??

The first half decent one will definitely go under my name here

mullingar · 13-03-2014 8:51pm

Well until someone comes up with a better sig, I'm going with this one

mullingar · 14-03-2014 11:46pm

I see whoever created the petition dropped their target goal from 10,000 to 1,000

4Sticks · 15-03-2014 12:56am

Well over the last year or two we have been building about 3000 one off houses annually only in Ireland - so aiming for 10,000 signatures was pushing it.
Sadly until people are directly confronted by this law - they will remain indifferent to it.

mullingar · 15-03-2014 1:16am

It was a bit on the ambitious side considering the amount of people that will be directly affected in the next year/2

cork2 · 16-03-2014 7:27pm

As an individual who works in the construction industry and has done for years I believe this is a generally a good thing. This will mean a lot more input in projects from professionals within the industry, professionals and trades standing over their work and being made accountable and much more paperwork and overseeing on the health and safety side of things. Somebody mentioned builders being jealous of self builders to be honest I see that as a childish argument, The side of the industry I'm in is buildings that don't meet regs, are unsafe, or are unfinished and to be honest MOST not all of them are self builds. Somebody also mentioned that in a self build that if the self builder doesn't do it it doesn't get done and I agree but what if that something is a crucial job that two trades deem to be each others job and walk away from it. I'm a construction worker and I'm very good at it. I'm good at it because I spent years learning and training. If you are in the industry and you walk around 99% of self builds you will know they are self builds, the finish just isn't there. Now when it comes to finish if it's what you want fair enough but I'm just pointing out things are missing and there was no builder to pull people on it. Without giving too much information the house I'm currently working on was a single skin timber frame building with imported windows. A single skin timber frame isn't ideal to say the least in this country, but anything is doable. The factory made frame was never designed for the windows nor did they know anything about them. The window company brought windows and fitted them as they would in the country of origin knowing no different. Problem being when it rains outside the rain pours in around the windows and there was nobody onsite to recognise the problem before it was too late. Then carpenters sheeted the outside of the building and did query what was happening but the home owner didn't actually understand the problem. So two years later I'm stripping the house of sheeting and removing the windows. When this house originally went out to tender the cheapest price was 575,000 and the dearest was 730,000 they went the self build route and got there dream home for 420,000 so far trying to dry the house has cost 95,000 euro and it's the tip of the iceberg due to the horrific problems being found everyday and that's just our work. I'd be afraid to see how much they've spent on a structural engineer who tbh I think is at a loss as to the stupidity of the problems found, they've also taken the window company to court and lost and have been advised not to take the timber frame company. These cases are more common than people may like to believe and tbh I feel bad for these homeowners but a part of me says they opted to be the builder it was their call. Project management is the most important part of a build and nobody can do that aswell as a builder or a fulltime employed and experienced project manager. In a lot of countries must be a qualified and certified contractor to build a house and even then building control will over see it. I don't go out selling car insurance, pulling teeth or representing people in a court room so please don't think you can do my job either.

wirehairmax · 16-03-2014 7:56pm

cork2 wrote: »

As an individual who works in the construction industry and has done for years I believe this is a generally a good thing. This will mean a lot more input in projects from professionals within the industry, professionals and trades standing over their work and being made accountable and much more paperwork and overseeing on the health and safety side of things. Somebody mentioned builders being jealous of self builders to be honest I see that as a childish argument, The side of the industry I'm in is buildings that don't meet regs, are unsafe, or are unfinished and to be honest MOST not all of them are self builds. Somebody also mentioned that in a self build that if the self builder doesn't do it it doesn't get done and I agree but what if that something is a crucial job that two trades deem to be each others job and walk away from it. I'm a construction worker and I'm very good at it. I'm good at it because I spent years learning and training. If you are in the industry and you walk around 99% of self builds you will know they are self builds, the finish just isn't there. Now when it comes to finish if it's what you want fair enough but I'm just pointing out things are missing and there was no builder to pull people on it. Without giving too much information the house I'm currently working on was a single skin timber frame building with imported windows. A single skin timber frame isn't ideal to say the least in this country, but anything is doable. The factory made frame was never designed for the windows nor did they know anything about them. The window company brought windows and fitted them as they would in the country of origin knowing no different. Problem being when it rains outside the rain pours in around the windows and there was nobody onsite to recognise the problem before it was too late. Then carpenters sheeted the outside of the building and did query what was happening but the home owner didn't actually understand the problem. So two years later I'm stripping the house of sheeting and removing the windows. When this house originally went out to tender the cheapest price was 575,000 and the dearest was 730,000 they went the self build route and got there dream home for 420,000 so far trying to dry the house has cost 95,000 euro and it's the tip of the iceberg due to the horrific problems being found everyday and that's just our work. I'd be afraid to see how much they've spent on a structural engineer who tbh I think is at a loss as to the stupidity of the problems found, they've also taken the window company to court and lost and have been advised not to take the timber frame company. These cases are more common than people may like to believe and tbh I feel bad for these homeowners but a part of me says they opted to be the builder it was their call. Project management is the most important part of a build and nobody can do that aswell as a builder or a fulltime employed and experienced project manager. In a lot of countries must be a qualified and certified contractor to build a house and even then building control will over see it. I don't go out selling car insurance, pulling teeth or representing people in a court room so please don't think you can do my job either.

Well said. You always hear about the success stories but there are so many many disasters out there that nobody brags about on the web or down the pub.

mandy gall · 16-03-2014 10:18pm

cork2 wrote: »

As an individual who works in the construction industry and has done for years I believe this is a generally a good thing. self builds. I don't go out selling car insurance, pulling teeth or representing people in a court room so please don't think you can do my job either.

I would never think I could do your job - i've said before I admire tradesmen. My husband on the other hand is a top class tradesman. In the town we live in there are buildings constructed by Contractors which are an absolute disgrace, falling apart. Then there are self build houses - which are absolutely beautiful. That's a fact. You should sign this petition:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/self-build-rights-ireland

because according to you, most self builds are crap - so that should mean more work for you coming to fix them. There will be so, so many self builds that simply won't exist with SI9 - so less work for you. You may as well sign!

Online petition to amend/revoke new building regs for self builds under BC(A)R SI.9

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