Etiquette Vs Gamesmanship

Redzah · 05-03-2012 2:37pm #1

Hi all,

Just want to hear your views on the following scenarios which occurred in my garden county match yesterday;

a. On the 15th, my opponents hit the ball what looked like O.B. and replayed and I hit it to 10 feet. They subsequently found their ball and hit a great shot from heavy rough to 15 feet and holed the put for par. My playing partner knocked the birdie putt 1-1.5 feet passed the hole but it was def a gimme and had been all day for both them and me. Anyway they made me putt it and i knocked it in. Was this bad etiquette on their part as u would think they would be happy with the half?

b. On 16, both my partner and our opponent hit poor lag putts to 6 feet. As we were 1 up and i was confident i'd get the putt I asked the opponents if they wanted to pick up and move on being 99% confident that they would decline as they were 1 down. They looked at me and said nothing, so i said i'd take their silence as a no.

The reason i asked this is because;
1. Their was a 1% chance that they would accept and that would mean less holes for them
2. I was very confident of holing and i knew I was to putt first. Therefore, if i knock it in all of sudden my opponent is thinking 'should've just excepted as he's been knocking them in all day'. Basically, it puts other thoughts in his head.

Was this bad etiquette or gamesmanship on my behalf?

c. On 17, I hit an awful lag putt from 30 feet and came back down the slope. My partner then hit it 5 feet past. My opponent hit it to 1 foot (prob shorter than the one they made me hole on 15). I looked at it and said nothing and knocked in my 5 footer. My opponent subsequently missed the 1 footer to win the hole and it rolled all the way down the slope to 25 feet away and they missed the one back to lose the match.

Was it bad etiquette that i made him putt this in the first place? I justified it based on the 15th but further justified it when he missed the putt.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and any other bad etiquette vs gamesmanship events that have occurred in competitive matchplay matches u've been involved in?

Mr. Larson · 05-03-2012 2:51pm

Redzah wrote: »

Hi all,

Just want to hear your views on the following scenarios which occurred in my garden county match yesterday;

a. On the 15th, my opponents hit the ball what looked like O.B. and replayed and I hit it to 10 feet. They subsequently found their ball and hit a great shot from heavy rough to 15 feet and holed the put for par. My playing partner knocked the birdie putt 1-1.5 feet passed the hole but it was def a gimme and had been all day for both them and me. Anyway they made me putt it and i knocked it in. Was this bad etiquette on their part as u would think they would be happy with the half?

Not necessarily. Nobody owes you anything and you can't blame them for wanting to win the hole and capitalise on their fortune. Personally I would have given it to you but if I was on the recieving end of it I would have just popped it in and returned the favour perhaps on the next opportunity (like you did).

Redzah wrote: »

b. On 16, both my partner and our opponent hit poor lag putts to 6 feet. As we were 1 up and i was confident i'd get the putt I asked the opponents if they wanted to pick up and move on being 99% confident that they would decline as they were 1 down. They looked at me and said nothing, so i said i'd take their silence as a no.

The reason i asked this is because;
1. Their was a 1% chance that they would accept and that would mean less holes for them
2. I was very confident of holing and i knew I was to putt first. Therefore, if i knock it in all of sudden my opponent is thinking 'should've just excepted as he's been knocking them in all day'. Basically, it puts other thoughts in his head.

Was this bad etiquette or gamesmanship on my behalf?

Not really either - you made an offer which you are entitled to do, a calculated risk - it was their choice so they didn't have to do anything they weren't comfortable with. It probably threw them off a bit as they tried to figure out what the best option was.

Redzah wrote: »

c. On 17, I hit an awful lag putt from 30 feet and came back down the slope. My partner then hit it 5 feet past. My opponent hit it to 1 foot (prob shorter than the one they made me hole on 15). I looked at it and said nothing and knocked in my 5 footer. My opponent subsequently missed the 1 footer to win the hole and it rolled all the way down the slope to 25 feet away and they missed the one back to lose the match.

Was it bad etiquette that i made him putt this in the first place? I justified it based on the 15th but further justified it when he missed the putt.

No you were vindicated by the fact that they missed the putt. I didn't see anything wrong in any of that.

Redzah · 05-03-2012 2:57pm

Jabberwocky wrote: »

Not necessarily. Nobody owes you anything and you can't blame them for wanting to win the hole and capitalise on their fortune. Personally I would have given it to you but if I was on the recieving end of it I would have just popped it in and returned the favour perhaps on the next opportunity (like you did).

Not really either - you made an offer which you are entitled to do, a calculated risk - it was their choice so they didn't have to do anything they weren't comfortable with. It probably threw them off a bit as they tried to figure out what the best option was.

No you were vindicated by the fact that they missed the putt. I didn't see anything wrong in any of that.

Cheers Jabberwockey. By the way we both missed on 16 :eek: from 6 feet so the calculated risk nearly backfired but it is a tactic i often use as I am confident from this range and all my gesture does is heap pressure on my opponent if i knock it in.

FixdePitchmark · 05-03-2012 2:59pm

Redzah wrote: »

Hi all,

Just want to hear your views on the following scenarios which occurred in my garden county match yesterday;

a. On the 15th, my opponents hit the ball what looked like O.B. and replayed and I hit it to 10 feet. They subsequently found their ball and hit a great shot from heavy rough to 15 feet and holed the put for par. My playing partner knocked the birdie putt 1-1.5 feet passed the hole but it was def a gimme and had been all day for both them and me. Anyway they made me putt it and i knocked it in. Was this bad etiquette on their part as u would think they would be happy with the half?

b. On 16, both my partner and our opponent hit poor lag putts to 6 feet. As we were 1 up and i was confident i'd get the putt I asked the opponents if they wanted to pick up and move on being 99% confident that they would decline as they were 1 down. They looked at me and said nothing, so i said i'd take their silence as a no.

The reason i asked this is because;
1. Their was a 1% chance that they would accept and that would mean less holes for them
2. I was very confident of holing and i knew I was to putt first. Therefore, if i knock it in all of sudden my opponent is thinking 'should've just excepted as he's been knocking them in all day'. Basically, it puts other thoughts in his head.

Was this bad etiquette or gamesmanship on my behalf?

c. On 17, I hit an awful lag putt from 30 feet and came back down the slope. My partner then hit it 5 feet past. My opponent hit it to 1 foot (prob shorter than the one they made me hole on 15). I looked at it and said nothing and knocked in my 5 footer. My opponent subsequently missed the 1 footer to win the hole and it rolled all the way down the slope to 25 feet away and they missed the one back to lose the match.

Was it bad etiquette that i made him putt this in the first place? I justified it based on the 15th but further justified it when he missed the putt.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and any other bad etiquette vs gamesmanship events that have occurred in competitive matchplay matches u've been involved in?

Redzah.

Ye all sound very friendly down in wicklaaaa. Move to Dublin

.

How were the flowers ?

a) They were wrong.

b) You were winding them up, to get them back.

It all results in the Sally Gap becoming becoming the North Side of Everest.

Jul3s · 05-03-2012 3:04pm

a. You were foolish expecting to be given a gimme.

b. To an experienced player you'll sound naive at best or just plain stupid depending on his percieved level of your golfing experience.

c. You don't have to give gimmes, especially at such a crucial stage of the match.

From the rules book section on etiquette

The Spirit of the Game

Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

Consideration for Other Players

No Disturbance or Distraction
Players should always show consideration for other players on the course and should not disturb their play by moving, talking or making unnecessary noise.

Players should ensure that any electronic device taken onto the course does not distract other players.

On the teeing ground, a player should not tee his ball until it is his turn to play.

Players should not stand close to or directly behind the ball, or directly behind the hole, when a player is about to play.
On the Putting Green
On the putting green, players should not stand on another player’s line of putt or, when he is making a stroke, cast a shadow over his line of putt.

Mr. Larson · 05-03-2012 3:05pm

Redzah wrote: »

Cheers Jabberwockey. By the way we both missed on 16 :eek: from 6 feet so the calculated risk nearly backfired but it is a tactic i often use as I am confident from this range and all my gesture does is heap pressure on my opponent if i knock it in.

I would argue that if you're going to pop it in it's going to put pressure on them regardless. If you fancy the putt, why give them an out? They could easily accept because they are not confident from that distance or there is more break in theirs. Why bother would be my question, just knock it in and watch them brick it.

brick tamland · 05-03-2012 3:08pm

A one foot putt rolling 25 feet past.

Yikes

Webbs · 05-03-2012 3:15pm

For me once you get into the last few holes there arent really any gimmes (apart from a 6inch or less tap in) unless its to my benefit - can make a 6+footer easier to go for if not thinking about the opposition. So for points 1 and 3 have no issue with either competitor.
Your second point is sailing a bit close to the gamesmanship wind.

PhilipMarlowe · 05-03-2012 3:17pm

a. @ 1 down playing 15, it's a case of gimmies me arse because the clock is ticking down and they had every right to ask you to putt, just as you should have expected to be asked IMO.

b. Offering good-good on a pair of 6 footers is gamesmanship IMO because being 1 up, your side only needed a half. If you were that confident in making it then keep schtum, make it and put the squeeze on the match.

c. No issues with you ask them to putt at the business end of the match. If they were that rattled by being asked that they missed, then maybe they learned something about matchplay.

Redzah · 05-03-2012 3:21pm

Jul3s wrote: »

a. You were foolish expecting to be given a gimme.

b. To an experienced player you'll sound naive at best or just plain stupid depending on his percieved level of your golfing experience.

c. You don't have to give gimmes, especially at such a crucial stage of the match.

From the rules book section on etiquette

The Spirit of the Game

Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

Consideration for Other Players

No Disturbance or Distraction
Players should always show consideration for other players on the course and should not disturb their play by moving, talking or making unnecessary noise.

Players should ensure that any electronic device taken onto the course does not distract other players.

On the teeing ground, a player should not tee his ball until it is his turn to play.

Players should not stand close to or directly behind the ball, or directly behind the hole, when a player is about to play.
On the Putting Green
On the putting green, players should not stand on another player’s line of putt or, when he is making a stroke, cast a shadow over his line of putt.

Don't think i was foolish expecting it and it was easy to knock in the short putt on 15, i suppose all it did was give me a sense of their desperation.

Jul3s I have enough experience to be confident asking if they wanted to call the putts. I adopted this strategy against arklow on the 3rd green from about 7 feet after we had a long arguement on the 2nd hole about where to drop the ball that went into the hazard. So i asked my opponent who was their local hero, a scratch golfer in his 50's if he wanted to calm things down after the last and call the putts knowing well he'd decline. He declined as expected and i knocked mine in. He missed his and I told him he was unlucky :pac: and I went onto the next happy as larry.

dnjoyce · 05-03-2012 3:28pm

Sounds like a great way to build up a bad reputation around your local clubs tbh.

Redzah · 05-03-2012 3:30pm

Jabberwocky wrote: »

I would argue that if you're going to pop it in it's going to put pressure on them regardless. If you fancy the putt, why give them an out? They could easily accept because they are not confident from that distance or there is more break in theirs. Why bother would be my question, just knock it in and watch them brick it.

Ya fair enough Jabber, I just think it adds a layer of complexity to their thoughts when standing over their 6 footer having been asked this and the putts were both straighforward enough, mine was just outside the right and his was inside left. I'll take it that you are saying that it was not unethical what i did by asking for this but in your opinion i should just get on with it and hole the putt.

Redzah · 05-03-2012 3:34pm

brick tamland wrote: »

A one foot put rolling 25 feet past.

Yikes

Ya i know it was crazy. He pushed the putt but on any other green it was only 1-2 feet max past but the 17th green on druids heath is mental at times and it was unfortunate (for him) what happened

Holy Diver · 05-03-2012 3:39pm

The more you've said about the 6 ft putts the more it sounds like gamesmanship to me.

Redzah · 05-03-2012 3:40pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Redzah.

Ye all sound very friendly down in wicklaaaa. Move to Dublin .

How were the flowers ?

a) They were wrong.

b) You were winding them up, to get them back.

It all results in the Sally Gap becoming becoming the North Side of Everest.

I'm living in Dublin Pitchmark, just prefer to play my golf away from you lot

Redzah · 05-03-2012 3:42pm

Holy Diver wrote: »

The more you've said about the 6 ft putts the more it sounds like gamesmanship to me.

Yes it was definately gamesmanship but should this act of gamesmanship by me be frowned upon (i.e. does this gamesmanship result in it being ethically wrong) or is it all part of the match?

Redzah · 05-03-2012 3:46pm

dnjoyce wrote: »

Sounds like a great way to build up a bad reputation around your local clubs tbh.

Which part would result in a bad reputation? I'm asking the question as when i was thinking back about this I was wondering was i crossing a line or was it all part of the match and above board?

Russman · 05-03-2012 4:06pm

I think there's too much thinking going on in that match to be honest

.

The point about the 6 footers is that its very close to gamesmanship IMO, personally I don't mind losing too much to someone (apart from the usual disappointment) but I hate to lose and also think "...and he's a bo11ix too"
There's no need for it, especially if you essentially have the guy beaten already.
Its just golf, not life and death.

Redzah · 05-03-2012 4:13pm

Russman wrote: »

I think there's too much thinking going on in that match to be honest .

The point about the 6 footers is that its very close to gamesmanship IMO, personally I don't mind losing too much to someone (apart from the usual disappointment) but I hate to lose and also think "...and he's a bo11ix too"
There's no need for it, especially if you essentially have the guy beaten already.
Its just golf, not life and death.

Cheers russman, i take your point on this. However, in an interclub competition I always adopt and attitude of winning is the most important thing and the niceties are for afterwards. Based on the feedback i've received it seems that asking somebody to hole out is ok no matter what the distance but my mental feckacting around calling 6 foot putts etc. needs to stop.

Russman · 05-03-2012 4:54pm

Oh absolutely, in inter-club its all about winning, but not at ANY cost, there's a line (somewhere

) not to be crossed IMO. To be fair I don't think you did cross it in this case, just got fairly close to it.

I saw a case 2 years ago in a metro match where a guy claimed a hole (wrongly as it turned out) from a junior who didn't know any better. Long story short, the guy won his match by 1 hole, his team went through and his team mates were disgusted with him. His club formally apologised after the event. I know you didn't do anything like this at all but you'd hate to inadvertantly cross the line in the heat of battle.

Best to leave "mind games" at home, in reality there's no such thing, beat them with your golf

Osgoodisgood · 05-03-2012 5:06pm

Redzah wrote: »

However, in an interclub competition I always adopt and attitude of winning is the most important thing and the niceties are for afterwards.

I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?

It's golf. Knock in the 6 footer. Move on.

slave1 · 05-03-2012 5:07pm

Redzah wrote: »

Just want to hear your views on the following scenarios which occurred in my garden county match yesterday

a. On the 15th....gamesmanship, not bad etiquette, this would not have put me off

b. On 16, both my partner and our opponent hit poor lag putts to 6 feet....I'd never expect to split a 6' putt, you don't want this doubt in your head standing over a putt

c. On 17, my opponent subsequently missed the 1 footer ... good matchplay on your behalf, at the end of the day it is a competion and your gut instinct was correct in my opinion

ShriekingSheet · 05-03-2012 5:12pm

slave1 wrote: »

a. On the 15th....gamesmanship, not bad etiquette, this would not have put me off

b. On 16, both my partner and our opponent hit poor lag putts to 6 feet....I'd never expect to split a 6' putt, you don't want this doubt in your head standing over a putt

c. On 17, my opponent subsequently missed the 1 footer ... good matchplay on your behalf, at the end of the day it is a competion and your gut instinct was correct in my opinion

Eh, how can you have a different answer for A and C? In both cases a short putt wasn't given.

Redzah · 05-03-2012 5:19pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Eh, how can you have a different answer for A and C? In both cases a short putt wasn't given.

The tone was set by my opponent on 15 so its a does 2 wrongs make a right scenario. He missed it (unbelieveably) so the answer is i was right but it was a 1 in 50 miss

Redzah · 05-03-2012 5:26pm

slave1 wrote: »

a. On the 15th....gamesmanship, not bad etiquette, this would not have put me off

b. On 16, both my partner and our opponent hit poor lag putts to 6 feet....I'd never expect to split a 6' putt, you don't want this doubt in your head standing over a putt

c. On 17, my opponent subsequently missed the 1 footer ... good matchplay on your behalf, at the end of the day it is a competion and your gut instinct was correct in my opinion

See there was no doubt in my head on 16 as I knew he would say no so it was pure gamesmanship but i'm wondering was it wrong on me to do this knowing well what the answer would be. I asked him this as i knew he would say know and i believed the odds were in my favour of holing over him holing so to me it was worth it to get inside his head a bit. I've split a 6 foot putt many times before and enjoy watching this scenario play out when i ask if they want to split, it normally throws them a bit but for me i'm just used to it.

ShriekingSheet · 05-03-2012 5:35pm

Not giving a putt is fine from any range if you ask me. Even if there's a 0.00001% chance of missing, an opponent is welcome to hope for that chance.

Asking "good-good?" over a couple of putts is unecessary. I've never been asked it in years of playing club matches, so I summise that only spas do this.

If you're put off by someone walking ahead to their longer drive before you hit, or that kind of thing, you're also a spa.

Basically, people who do gamesmanship, or let it affect them, are all eejits.

Redzah · 05-03-2012 5:45pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Not giving a putt is fine from any range if you ask me. Even if there's a 0.00001% chance of missing, an opponent is welcome to hope for that chance.

Asking "good-good?" over a couple of putts is unecessary. I've never been asked it in years of playing club matches, so I summise that only spas do this.

If you're put off by someone walking ahead to their longer drive before you hit, or that kind of thing, you're also a spa.

Basically, people who do gamesmanship, or let it affect them, are all eejits.

But sheet i've done the whole good-good thing at senior cup level for years and have seen it done in other matches. I don't think this makes me a spa.

Also somebody walking ahead is bad etiquette if it affects your line of vision.

Gamesmanship is apart of most sports so there must be plenty of eejits involved in competitive sport.

dnjoyce · 05-03-2012 5:55pm

Redzah wrote: »

But sheet i've done the whole good-good thing at senior cup level for years and have seen it done in other matches. I don't think this makes me a spa.

Also somebody walking ahead is bad etiquette if it affects your line of vision.

Gamesmanship is apart of most sports so there must be plenty of eejits involved in competitive sport.

The fact that you've done it for years doesn't make it right. Whatever about a couple of two foot putts when the match is still level early on - good good is maybe acceptable then , but on a few 6-footers at squeaky bum time - it is silly. The more you do it the more you are in danger of fitting Sheet's description. Beat opponents by playing better golf.

For Paws · 05-03-2012 6:19pm

Can't see where you crossed the line from sportsmanship into gamesmanship.

All within the Spirit of the Game, imo.

Trick is not to piss off opponents too early in the match and get them more focused on beating you.

And if you get a rep for being hard to beat at matchplay, that's a plus.

Draupnir · 05-03-2012 6:23pm

Good-good is only acceptable if the putts are genuine gimmes in my opinion, if you start trying to dodge holes when you've got a lead by offering missable putts then that's beyond acceptable and wouldn't be great for a player's reputation.

It's in the spirit of the game to get on with your own shots, if you are confident then hole your putt. If you genuinely want to give him his putt, give it to him. Otherwise, it's just not golf.

Draupnir · 05-03-2012 6:25pm

For Paws wrote: »

Can't see where you crossed the line from sportsmanship into gamesmanship.

All within the Spirit of the Game, imo.

Trick is not to piss off opponents too early in the match and get them more focused on beating you.

And if you get a rep for being hard to beat at matchplay, that's a plus.

You get a rep for being hard to beat at matchplay by playing well, you get a rep for being a knob to play against, win or lose, if you are carrying on like this.

Sportsmanship is the opposite of gamesmanship.

Etiquette Vs Gamesmanship

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