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Ringfort Theory

  • 21-07-2013 9:58pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭


    Hi folks,

    Thought this might be better as a seperate thread.


    Has anybody got a viable theory as to why there are a bunch of raths almost in a row, well an arc really, this may also be something maybe not

    53.425492,-6.610733

    I was theorising whether or not the "PALE" may have been a copy of a previous structure, or at least idea.

    Anybody cast an opinion?


«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Perhaps they follow a ridge or some other type of elevated ground.


  • Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭olly_mac


    See Matthew Stout, "The Irish Ringfort", Four Courts Press.1997.

    I don't agree fully with his analysis, but it will provoke some thought.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Hi Slowburner,

    The forts are mostly on flat ground, no significant geography really.

    They are not so much a cluster like you would get if they were related clans, more that they seem to be following some sort of specific shape.

    It reminds me of the way the Romans built small forts at particular distances apart on Hadrians wall and Antonines wall in Scotland.

    There is also some evidence that they carry on for some distance, unfortunately a few of them seem to have been flattened, only leaving faint marks only visible from the air.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Just had a thought,

    Would these ringforts be at the side of a main thoroughfare, ie a roadway?

    When I was down there today, I noticed that there seem to be a bunch of forts in a row, then another selection take off in another direction. South initially. Towards Celbridge?

    Odd.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Anybody got any ideas?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    I know this is very lazy - but could you post a link on bing or google maps?
    Its actually an interesting theory although ringforts do come in all shapes and sizes.
    There is a conjoined double ring-fort to the north of the Galtees in Tipperary with a stream running through the middle, probably one of the most unusual I know of.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Hi bawn79,

    I have at least 6 objects of interest mostly in a row starting from Rodanstown heading East-North-East.

    These are definite sites.
    53.417909,-6.644669
    53.422333,-6.624455
    53.432447,-6.596475
    53.444935,-6.578751

    Next are almost definites,
    53.425428,-6.610851
    53.427077,-6.558366

    There are a hole load more but time is not my friend tonight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Hi bawn79,

    I have at least 6 objects of interest mostly in a row starting from Rodanstown heading East-North-East.

    These are definite sites.
    53.417909,-6.644669
    53.422333,-6.624455
    53.432447,-6.596475
    53.444935,-6.578751

    Next are almost definites,
    53.425428,-6.610851
    53.427077,-6.558366

    There are a hole load more but time is not my friend tonight.

    In my opinion I'd fancy them to be a lot closer together if they were forming a defensive line. Those look like a fairly normal dispersal pattern to me.

    Also defensive lines like the Black Pigs Dyke were constructed in Ireland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Pig%27s_Dyke
    So more likely that a version of this would have been put in place (IMO).

    How are these placed in relation to the Esker Riada? Perhaps they were like motorway service stations!
    There was a great book written by Herman Geissel - was googling to try and link you a copy. Just discovered the author passed away in 2011 and the book was taken down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Hi bawn79

    Did a bit more digging and apparently the Esker Riada runs south of the Liffey,

    Ie through Greenhills and Lucan.

    But I do agree with the idea of stopping points or more likely they could have been places of safety in a generally rough or bandit hit areas.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    bawn79 wrote: »
    In my opinion I'd fancy them to be a lot closer together if they were forming a defensive line. Those look like a fairly normal dispersal pattern to me.

    Also defensive lines like the Black Pigs Dyke were constructed in Ireland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Pig%27s_Dyke
    So more likely that a version of this would have been put in place (IMO).

    How are these placed in relation to the Esker Riada? Perhaps they were like motorway service stations!
    There was a great book written by Herman Geissel - was googling to try and link you a copy. Just discovered the author passed away in 2011 and the book was taken down.
    I don't know. They do seem to form a pretty straight line.
    I'm not too sure f this alignment is by chance, topography or if it indicates a relationship between the raths.
    It would be interesting to see if any other features turned up which might indicate a link.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    there are two more in the same direction just south of summerhill

    53.475506,-6.729988

    and this one

    53.485141,-6.770723

    and i wander if this is another one:

    53.489986,-6.78857

    one more here barely visible because of the clouds:

    53.509438,-6.858433

    and this forest is strangely circular

    53.521992,-6.894486

    and this is on the same diagonal line

    53.521992,-6.894486

    and what the hell is this on the same line:

    53.533255,-6.929179

    it looks too new and too perfect, but there are 3 circular structures one next to the other one only partially visible above the big circle

    another possibly here:

    53.536852,-6.982652

    circular forest

    53.56022,-6.99396

    all these circular structures are together in a very small space. what is this?

    53.567128,-6.985595
    53.566691,-6.97787
    53.567153,-6.970477
    53.557448,-6.984988 is this a stone circle?
    53.557212,-6.972591 if this is a structure it is huge.


    they all seem to lead to here

    53.562961,-7.010783

    this is the beginning of a path through the bogs which is aligned exactly in the same direction as all these circular structures. i don't think this is coincidence. there is a road that goes through this gap in the bogs today. i wander if there was an old road there as well.

    and here we have another circular structure at the other end of the gap in the bogs

    53.577729,-7.07744

    possibly here directly opposite on the other side of the road

    53.583137,-7.067955

    and here is something strange as well

    53.588047,-7.06214

    and a circular structure just above it

    53.596711,-7.043734

    then here we have two circular structures (intersected circles) and mounds

    53.587206,-7.095111

    then maybe this. the arc is too perfect to be natural

    53.605901,-7.172767

    then this:

    53.597573,-7.151264

    partially hidden by the clouds, but big perfect arc right next to this strange circular structure (well?)

    53.598582,-7.156574

    then there is something here

    53.622245,-7.205606

    and here

    53.622544,-7.216549

    and barely visible in the clouds we have this:

    53.623883,-7.224702

    still all on the same straight line

    then we hit bad google map and we can see only big structures. here is one:

    53.648606,-7.249273

    one more

    53.585525,-7.212966

    and another two here

    53.583818,-7.236976
    53.585576,-7.24285

    double circle here with a big arc to its right. is this the third outer circle partially preserved???

    53.586175,-7.253289

    another small one here and what looks like much bigger one next to it to the right

    53.591843,-7.264164

    one more here

    53.586582,-7.293411

    and here we have a line of circular structures very close together cutting across the main road line at 90 degrees angle:

    53.578289,-7.293512
    53.588563,-7.329277
    53.593091,-7.33769
    53.588315,-7.346166
    53.585181,-7.351209
    53.58406,-7.351295
    53.578672,-7.355053
    53.571524,-7.35462


    when the line of forts reaches the lake it bends back to the right and then back up forming and arc:

    53.568676,-7.349877
    53.566121,-7.336744
    53.566083,-7.347173
    53.573034,-7.325548


    here is one on the edge of the lake

    53.579614,-7.379383

    one here

    53.584149,-7.376188

    lots and lots of circular things here. lots of arcs which are too perfect

    53.582105,-7.375379
    53.584379,-7.383567
    53.583793,-7.369534
    53.586863,-7.384444
    53.589837,-7.387374

    so the road continues i the same direction just above lake Owel...the map gets really bad for a while so you can not see any smaller structures, but look at this:

    53.620234,-7.448136

    what is this?

    once we get out of the google haze the line of ringforts continues following the same diagonal direction:

    53.631356,-7.549799

    and possibly here

    53.637641,-7.554508
    53.63572,-7.561427

    we are now entering another gap between the bogs and half way through there is another circular structure:

    53.647468,-7.592026

    at the other end of the gap we have a cluster of circular structures:

    53.656243,-7.628354
    53.659511,-7.633251
    53.65349,-7.63872
    53.645961,-7.643744
    53.645554,-7.651426
    53.652663,-7.650522
    53.644282,-7.662366
    53.652841,-7.659448
    53.658971,-7.654747

    I think we might have found something here. :)
    According to an entry in the Annals of the Four Masters for AD 123, there were five principal highways (Irish: slighe) leading to Tara (Irish: Teamhair) in Early Medieval Ireland. The entry in the Annals claims that these routes were 'discovered' at the birth of Conn of the Hundred Battles:
    The night of Conn's birth were discovered five principal roads leading to Teamhair, which were never observed till then. These are their names: Slighe Asail, Slighe Midhluachra, Slighe Cualann, Slighe Mhór, Slighe Dala. Slighe Mhór is that called Eiscir Riada, i.e. the division line of Ireland into two parts, between Conn and Eoghan Mór.[9]
    In reality, "the ancient road system (such as it was - there cannot have been a developed national system) fanned out not from Tara but from Dublin.".[7]

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84448704&postcount=17

    this could be one of the road going west from dublin.

    by the way, did you notice how bad the google map becomes when you hit midlands?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Kicking Bird


    I've attached below a section of Colm Ó Lochlainn's map of 'Roadways in Ancient Ireland',which shows the route of the Slí Mhór.I've highlighted two roads in particular which are in close proximity to the alignment of ringforts NE of Kilcock(represented by the bold yellow line just east of Enfield on the map).The road highlighted in blue was an important cross route(it crossed the Slí Mhór from north to south,and vice versa)and led directly to Tara.The road highlighted in red was a possible route to and from Dublin and it joins the cross route to Tara(blue road) at Cloncurry(Co.Kildare),which is a mere 9.5kms. due west of Rodanstown.So it seems we have two relatively important roads in close proximity to these ringforts which also have a direct link to the Slí Mhór.

    Bawn79 mentioned Hermann Geissel's 'A Road on the Long Ridge' in an earlier post and this incidentally is where I came across Ó Lochlainn's map(I have a copy of the book myself).I've attached a link where a pdf of the publication can be downloaded for those who are interested:

    http://www.tarataratara.net/resources/Tara_roads/East_West/Tara_Slige_Mhor.htm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Hi,

    Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any known road in that area.

    Unless I am looking at it wrong, or the road in question in not a known 1.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    or the road in question in not a known 1

    :)

    the alignment, especially with the path through the first bog is too perfect to be coincidental. but who knows.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Ahh,

    I see what you mean, I was still thinking about the allignment that runs from ENE to WSW.

    Yes that would also fit in with another site that I am looking at.


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    t
    I think we might have found something here. :)



    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84448704&postcount=17

    this could be one of the road going west from dublin.

    by the way, did you notice how bad the google map becomes when you hit midlands?

    Some way to be spending your saturday night but to see what was being mapped out I stuck your points on the map below.

    https://maps.google.ie/maps/ms?msid=208301446908880239080.0004e310829b5cdcb3034&msa=0&ll=53.59821,-7.459717&spn=0.456385,0.883026

    Might be a good way to track and see yourself adding in other points etc.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Great work!
    Sure what else would you do on a Saturday night?


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    thanks for this. very interesting. it goes as a stright line to the first bogs and then we have a whole cluster behind it.

    by the was not all ring walls are forts.

    BBC Two - Wild Shepherdess with Kate Humble, Afghanistan
    BBC iPlayer - Wild Shepherdess with Kate Humble: Peru

    both show dry stone built animal enclosures identical to irish stone walled "ringforts". the nomads use them as permanent stations on flock migrations and pitch temporary settlements around them. very interesting.

    also i will try to get something together about circular observatories made of stone found in serbia.

    circle is the easiest shape to draw. you need two people and a rope.


  • Registered Users Posts: 772 ✭✭✭baaba maal


    Small point on the personnel requirements for these structures. I built a circular stone wall in my garden as a decorative thing/homage to the legacy of circular structures throughout our prehistory and I can assure you it only requires one person, a rope and a stick;)

    Fascinating thread everybody well done on the legwork.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    thanks for this. very interesting. it goes as a stright line to the first bogs and then we have a whole cluster behind it.

    by the was not all ring walls are forts.

    BBC Two - Wild Shepherdess with Kate Humble, Afghanistan
    BBC iPlayer - Wild Shepherdess with Kate Humble: Peru

    both show dry stone built animal enclosures identical to irish stone walled "ringforts". the nomads use them as permanent stations on flock migrations and pitch temporary settlements around them. very interesting.

    also i will try to get something together about circular observatories made of stone found in serbia.

    circle is the easiest shape to draw. you need two people and a rope.
    It is important to bear in mind that not not every circular earthwork is classified as a ringfort.
    A ringfort is a specific monument class.
    They may be circular, plectrum shaped or sub-circular and must have a bank and external fosse to fall under this classification.
    In most cases, there is a causeway of some description over the fosse, leading to the entrance.
    There are two sub-classifications: the rath and the cashel. Raths generally have an earthen bank with an external fosse or a combination of earth and stone, while cashels have banks constructed of stone and an external fosse.
    It is thought that bivallate or trivallate (two or three banks and fosses) ringforts were to demonstrate higher status.
    Both date roughly to the later Iron Age/early Christian period.

    A much broader class - the enclosure, refers to an area enclosed by a bank or fosse. The shape can be pretty much anything from sub-circular to rectilinear. It's a catch-all classification for earthworks that don't quite fit the ringfort bill.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭BFDCH.


    could they have been used one after another?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    My interest was piqued by the fact that they are so close together.

    If they were simply dwellings like extended families or suchlike then surely they would have been clustered around each other like the beginnings of a small hamlet?

    Instead these are in a line like they were matching a trade route or known road (Riada) but they fall between 2 known roads ( too far north to be Esker Riada and too far south for the 1 from Swords heading west)

    So I am a little bit stumped.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    Just a note on Placemark 25, Having worked this field a number of occasions, What does seem like a noticeable circular mound is not really anything perceptible on the ground.
    It had an RC church ruin marked in there on the historic OS, but I think that may have been over at the location of the house to the West on the ortho.

    Lots of other earthworks in the area though. Including Turgeisus fort a few miles to the North-West, past which the original road may well have passed...

    I don't believe that the path indicated is necessarily correct either, considering the ground that is covered, I'd be pretty sure that the path would cross the now N52 at Caddagh Cross, and proceed directly to the river deel crossing point at drumcree. There are substantial old earthworks pretty regularly along that path, and there is documented battle (at least one, but much later). The land to the South West of Drumcree includes a large expanse of Bog (Mullacrooy) which would have been quite difficult to cross, as well as numerous hills further South West. Whereas the road from Delvin to Collinstown represents the high ground and clear access. a relatively straight travel path all the way to Castlepollard. The forts etc. to the South of this road seem to be on hilltops generally, and Turgeisius Fort located on top of Randoon, would overlook any existing roadway in the valley below. Ideal place to start robbing people and cutting off noses.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Having had a good look at the sites laballed by Bawn79, I have to ask the question, why are the sites I have been looking at going in a direction that doesn't follow the R156.

    These items are following a seperate route West-South-West.

    A possible cross-link?

    Short-cut maybe for those going from above Swords to Galway or Kerry perhaps?


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    who knows. there is definitely a cluster of circular things in the center of ireland to which this road leads. what is it?

    just before the three lakes Owel, Derravaragh and Lene


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Hey dublinviking,

    Just had a look at the area you mentioned, and found that there are a good few items of interest on the other side of those lakes.

    Perhaps this is a previously undiscovered or un-noted travel route?

    Needs some more investigation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    there are. if you look at the map that bawn79 kindly made, you can see clusters both before the lakes and after with the "road" going through the bogs before and after through the only available route. i followed the same direction for a while after the second cluster and found few more circular structures continuing in the same direction. i hope others will find time to see where does this "road" lead to.

    here is what i found

    53.651671,-7.672344
    53.656733,-7.674318
    53.649802,-7.683527
    53.655544,-7.696729
    53.658933,-7.699019
    53.661399,-7.713779
    53.674621,-7.711054
    53.678955,-7.705346
    53.682539,-7.694573
    53.66646,-7.736074
    53.668214,-7.736374
    53.679057,-7.726289
    53.682818,-7.726825
    53.680442,-7.754398
    53.684712,-7.758776
    53.683123,-7.799116 - isolated site below the bog but lots of sites above the bog:

    53.695716,-7.706143
    53.704887,-7.723843
    53.710298,-7.711719
    53.715073,-7.717773
    53.711047,-7.752574
    53.709091,-7.746953
    53.710628,-7.782919

    finishing with this:

    53.748939,-7.755064 - what is this? its big.

    53.711771,-7.833645
    53.730055,-7.835229
    53.738952,-7.868231

    and that is it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Kicking Bird


    Just a guess,but this alignment of ringforts and enclosures to the NW may have some relationship to the Slíghe Assail(see the map below).The Slíghe Assail travelled from east to west across the country and led one to and from the royal site of Rathcroghan.

    Some of the coordinates which dublinviking gave above((i)53.66646,-7.736074-Ardagh,(ii)53.674621,-7.711054,(iii)53.678955,-7.705346,etc.)would appear to sit alongside a route which travelled northwestward from Uisneach(ancient ceremonial site)where it joined the Slíghe Assail close to Longford.

    Cfuser wondered whether there was a route west of Lough Ennell(southwest of Lough Owel)given the significant number of ringforts and enclosures in this area - these may have had some relationship to this route to and from Uisneach.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner





    53.748939,-7.755064 - what is this? its big.
    Early C19th landscaping - almost certainly a walled garden.
    It was associated with Carrickglass House and Demesne.
    By 1860 (approx.), there is a pump marked within the boundary and Carrickglass house has become a gasworks!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Right,

    Now we seem to have a slight issue here.

    The items I am looking at run from around Rush to Ennis as a plotting aid.

    The objects noted by Bawn79 run approximately from Dublin to Longford, perhaps further.

    These are going in the wrong direction altogether.

    This is why I think it may be something previously missed or ignored. Not a road that has been known about for many years.


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