orange provocation

southsiderosie · 13-07-2012 10:20pm

BBDBB wrote: »

ahh but you are occupying the middle ground of the fair and just minded man.............hence you are despised and attacked by both sides of the debate

How is saying one side is as bad as the other considered 'middle ground'? Within the context of this thread, it is just a tactic to avoid confronting the reality of what happened on the video.

Nobody said the video was emblematic of all unionists - that is a straw man argument. And nobody said that 'recreational rioting' in republican areas wasn't idiotic - the attempt to bring that into this thread is simply a move to deflect from the reality of the video: a group which on the one hand claims it has moved past sectarianism to the point where the public at large are welcome at these marches are on the other hand still unwilling to stamp out blatantly sectarian flare-ups within their ranks.

alastair · 13-07-2012 10:20pm

h2005 wrote: »

No just assaulted sure that`s grand

He wasn't harmed - so there's your answer.

Doc Ruby · 13-07-2012 10:21pm

philologos wrote: »

You're the one who has claimed I've lied about my nationality, and you're the one who claims that I advocated "racism" and "sectarianism" for simply saying I'm not sure if you're right?

Steady on there horse, you're getting ahead of yourself. If you look closely I said "Sure you are", which by any measure is agreeing with your claimed place of origin, unless you chose to add in your own narrative there, and that's far more your problem than mine.

In fairness, NI is the most racist place on earth, and anyone supporting those who helped make it so perhaps didn't fall far from the tree. If I'm wrong, please correct me. And if you felt insulted by my completely unintended slurs, let me just say I'm glad I did not entirely in your own mind brand you a hypocrite, a mean drunk, a toe sniffer, or a blindly nationalistic religious bigot, for those must be even further from the reality.

h2005 · 13-07-2012 10:24pm

alastair wrote: »

He wasn't harmed - so there's your answer.

Physically no guess he was lucky the police officer came to his aid swinging a baton

Happyman42 · 13-07-2012 10:24pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

still unwilling to stamp out blatantly sectarian flare-ups within their ranks.

How can they stamp it out when it is enshrined and ingrained in the organisation?
Somebody in government needs to grow a pair and stand up to it.....finally and without fear or favour.

BBDBB · 13-07-2012 10:25pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

How is saying one side is as bad as the other considered 'middle ground'? Within the context of this thread, it is just a tactic to avoid confronting the reality of what happened on the video.

Nobody said the video was emblematic of all unionists - that is a straw man argument. And nobody said that 'recreational rioting' in republican areas wasn't idiotic - the attempt to bring that into this thread is simply a move to deflect from the reality of the video: a group which on the one hand claims it has moved past sectarianism to the point where the public at large are welcome at these marches are on the other hand still unwilling to stamp out blatantly sectarian flare-ups within their ranks.

Im not sure you understand the question you have asked me.

If you choose to restrict the debate to that only contained in one videoed event, because it is in the "context of the thread" then surely you have to acknowledge that it is immedietly biased whatever side of the debate you happen to believe. Or are you suggesting that the sectarianism that has blighted our nation is only from one side against another?

alastair · 13-07-2012 10:27pm

h2005 wrote: »

Physically no guess he was lucky the police officer came to his aid swinging a baton

Grand so - we're in agreement - no-one harmed.

philologos · 13-07-2012 10:27pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

In fairness, NI is the most racist place on earth, and anyone supporting those who helped make it so perhaps didn't fall far from the tree. If I'm wrong, please correct me. And if you felt insulted by my completely unintended slurs, let me just say I'm glad I did not entirely in your own mind brand you a hypocrite, a mean drunk, a toe sniffer, or a blindly nationalistic religious bigot, for those must be even further from the reality.

My experience of getting to know quite a lot of people from Northern Ireland, has informed me otherwise thankfully

I respect the freedoms of people to celebrate the Twelfth, I don't believe it is evil. As for those people who try and screw it up for everyone, and rub peoples noses in it, sure, I'll say hands down that's wrong.

Micky Dolenz · 13-07-2012 10:31pm

The SF propaganda machine whipping people up into a frenzy again I see.

Happyman42 · 13-07-2012 10:34pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The SF propaganda machine whipping people up into a frenzy again I see.

SF dressed up as a loyalist band. Boys oh boys.:rolleyes:

Micky Dolenz · 13-07-2012 10:42pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

SF dressed up as a loyalist band. Boys oh boys.:rolleyes:

Interested in seeing all the peaceful marches? Or should we allow ourselves to be only shown the bad eggs?

Inciting hatred is a powerful tool which lessens the chances of open dialogue on both sides of the divide.

Fight_Night · 13-07-2012 10:44pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

In fairness, NI is the most racist place on earth

On earth? Haha not even close. In this part of Europe possibly.

Chuck Stone · 13-07-2012 10:47pm

philologos wrote: »

"People like me"?

Rather than trying to present yourself as morally superior and smugly virtuous shouldn't you be advising Catholics of that church to come out and embrace their tormentors - what with the whole 'love thine enemy' biblical stuff you proudly subscribe to?

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven

Matthew 5:43-48

Doc Ruby · 13-07-2012 10:49pm

Fight_Night wrote: »

On earth? Haha not even close. In this part of Europe possibly.

Oh goodness, not number one in racism? Hang that laurel wreath on the wall. Even assuming its true, which it isn't as far as I know.

J Cheever Loophole · 13-07-2012 10:50pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

Where the disconnect lies for me is the fact that leaders of the OO try to portray the 12th as "Orangefest", some kind of family-friendly event. Well I went to a pre-12th local OO march in my area, and although it seems that for most of the participants it was a fun get-together, many of the people who came out for it were the real problem: total scumbags who were openly drinking and generally acting the bollix. One idiot 15 year old was even running around with a UVF flag stuck in his knapsack. The police saw them and just laughed.

If senior members of the OO really and truly believe that the 12th should be some kind of cross-community festival that even foreigners like myself are welcome to take part in, then they need to do something about 1) the scummy element who frequent these events and seem to get their rocks off by trying to be hard men, 2) the open and brazen display of paramilitary flags and paraphernalia, 3) anti-Catholic songs and banners, and 4) brazen acts of provocation. The older men in the video who attacked the person recording this tomfoolery in front of St. Patrick's would have been better served by turning their ire on the idiots who - once again - made their community look like unreconstructed bigots. The fact that they did nothing and attempted to 'shoot the messenger' so to speak, says volumes, really.

Very good post indeed - hits the nail on the head.

BBDBB wrote: »

Sadly we have to wait a generation or two for their "traditions" and what they stand for to die out of their own accord as later generations realise what complete knobs their ancestors were................

That might not be as soon as you might think BBDBB - check out 1.04 to about 1.10 on the first video - the two small "bandsmen" must be around 3, 4 or 5 years old I'd guess?

What is likely to be happening is that they are having hate bred into them - the same hate that was bred into their parents, and so on. Monkey see, monkey do.

Whilst what passes for normality has reached many parts of the North, the patchwork quilt that is the religious divide in North Belfast throws up many many instances of thuggery, violence, intimidation etc etc. What the videos show is one aspect of this that is repeated many many times away form the cameras.

Fight_Night · 13-07-2012 10:54pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oh goodness, not number one in racism? Hang that laurel wreath on the wall. Even assuming its true, which it isn't as far as I know.

You honestly think that NI is more racist than Sudan? It has a lot of problems but let's not get carried away.

philologos · 13-07-2012 10:56pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Rather than trying to present yourself as morally superior and smugly virtuous shouldn't you be advising Catholics of that church to come out and embrace their tormentors - what with the whole 'love thine enemy' biblical stuff you proudly subscribe to?

Firstly, I'm not trying to present myself as morally superior to anyone. I can only speak of what I'm going to do, and I'm not going to rush to conclusions about people. Yet, I'm the one being criticised for this stance?

Personally as a evangelical Christian, I think clearly that if both sides embraced Christianity rather than nationalism there could be clear improvements. I question how much of these issues really do surround "Catholicism" or "Protestantism" personally, and I have done for a very long time.

However, for the purposes of this thread, and as a short term aim, trying not to provoke either side would be a fantastic start.

Happyman42 · 13-07-2012 11:01pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Interested in seeing all the peaceful marches? Or should we allow ourselves to be only shown the bad eggs?

Inciting hatred is a powerful tool which lessens the chances of open dialogue on both sides of the divide.

The only reason they are peaceful is because there is no-one around to take offence. They are still as sectarian because it's a sectarian organisation.
It exists to protect a Protestantism that very few, if any, practice anymore and because of an allegiance to a crown that patently doesn't want a bit of them. It's a pointless and failed organisation and if they don't disband themselves then somebody should put them out of their obvious misery.

And, oh yeh, to dress up in bowler hats and suits to look like English gentlemen (who don't want a bit of them either);)

BBDBB · 13-07-2012 11:01pm

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Very good post indeed - hits the nail on the head.

That might not be as soon as you might think BBDBB - check out 1.04 to about 1.10 on the first video - the two small "bandsmen" must be around 3, 4 or 5 years old I'd guess?

What is likely to be happening is that they are having hate bred into them - the same hate that was bred into their parents, and so on. Monkey see, monkey do.

Whilst what passes for normality has reached many parts of the North, the patchwork quilt that is the religious divide in North Belfast throws up many many instances of thuggery, violence, intimidation etc etc. What the videos show is one aspect of this that is repeated many many times away form the cameras.

I didnt specify beyond a "generation or two" for that very reason

I also pointed out it was just as valid on both sides of the debate

Are we where a civilised society should be yet? No

Have we made progress in the last decade? Yes

Having witnessed that progress, the changes it has impacted and even the changes in my own views it has made, I can only say its a work in progress. Loads to do yet, a whole load of idiots and indoctrinated bigots exist on both sides. They dont represent us all and I believe their numbers are getting fewer I hope that builds momentum and the pace of change increases. The factors that I believe will make that happen are things like tolerance, acceptance and understanding. Triumphalism, vengence and provocation to 'defend' ones rights and culture will only lead us back to conflict when both sides are adopting that tactic

Fortunately there are a lot of people from all walks of life and both sides of the divide that are starting to see the futility of the past conflict, and the benefit of a simply living and let live policy. Some of their comments are on this thread if you want to see them

Chuck Stone · 13-07-2012 11:03pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The SF propaganda machine whipping people up into a frenzy again I see.

It was just on the BBCNI news. I guess they're whipping people up into a frenzy too are they?

What do you think are the intentions of a 12th of July 'parade' stopping at a Catholic church and playing inflammatory tunes?

Are you avinalaf?

laoch na mona · 13-07-2012 11:03pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Interested in seeing all the peaceful marches? Or should we allow ourselves to be only shown the bad eggs?

Inciting hatred is a powerful tool which lessens the chances of open dialogue on both sides of the divide.

remove the scum from your organisation and let a paddy's day parade through shankill them ye can march were ye want

gurramok · 13-07-2012 11:04pm

Fight_Night wrote: »

You honestly think that NI is more racist than Sudan? It has a lot of problems but let's not get carried away.

Well both Sudanese and our Loyalist friends oppose gay marriage. Apparently it was announced yesterday in the throes of quoting Christianity and lambasting secularism that it "would do untold damage to civilisation as we know it."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18827235

Hey religion is a good thing after all :rolleyes:

J Cheever Loophole · 13-07-2012 11:05pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Interested in seeing all the peaceful marches? Or should we allow ourselves to be only shown the bad eggs?

Inciting hatred is a powerful tool which lessens the chances of open dialogue on both sides of the divide.

I think most people will be aware that the majority of parades pass of without incident, and that indeed the participants are decent law abiding citizens.

As that's a given, I think it only right that these clips - which indeed have made the news - be discussed. They are what they are - damning evidence of sectarian hatred and intimidation, and are a reflection of what goes on on a daily basis in some parts of Northern Ireland - particularly North Belfast.

Given what the video shows, I find your reference to the "SF propaganda machine" to be absolutely bizarre.

Chuck Stone · 13-07-2012 11:15pm

philologos wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not trying to present myself as morally superior to anyone.

You may not intend it but you certainly are.

Personally as a evangelical Christian, I think clearly that if both sides embraced Christianity rather than nationalism there could be clear improvements. I question how much of these issues really do surround "Catholicism" or "Protestantism" personally, and I have done for a very long time.

I rarely reply to your daft evangelism but I have to this time; I'll sum up what you've wrote. You're basically saying 'If only all these people could be more of a good Christian like me then all these problems would go away'.

All you're succeeding in doing here is underscoring the my original comment.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

So you're here to project an image of superior morals, smug virtue and self-righteousness?

I won't be responding to you any further on this thread.

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's a pointless and failed organisation and if they don't disband themselves then somebody should put them out of their obvious misery.

I think that would only feed into their pathetic siege mentality and persecution complex. Regardless, if today's display is anything to go by, they're doing a fine job of it themselves.

J Cheever Loophole · 13-07-2012 11:20pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

What stands out more to me is the murder of a taxi driver and the burning to death of 3 Catholic children during the Drumcree standoff. After these murders, Orangemen continued their protest. Filth.

In the interests of fairness BR, I have to take issue with that.

The horrendous deaths of the Quinn children, on the 12 July 1998, took place hours before the main twelfth demonstrations were due to take place - demonstrations that the whole of the North were dreading as it had the potential for an escalation in violence to levels not seen since the early seventies.

The deaths of the Quinn children totally undermined the Drumcree protest forever. Despite the protestations of many - including Davy Jones the Portadown Orange Order's spokesman, and some leading DUP politicians - the deaths were clearly linked to the Drumcree protest and for many the protest had gone too far.

This led the William Bingham, the County Grand Chaplain of Armagh and member of the Orange Order negotiating team to say that "walking down the Garvaghy Road would be a hollow victory, because it would be in the shadow of three coffins of little boys who wouldn't even know what the Orange Order is about".

This statement resulted in that top intellectual (:rolleyes:) Joel Patton, of the Spirit of Drumcree group, having a stand up row with the Reverend Bingham in "the field", on national television.

Edited to say - Having just re-read your post BR, I accept that what you say is correct - the protests did indeed continue after these deaths. What I was trying to point out was that not all Orange men adopted that approach - indeed the majority did not.

Apologies.

holystungun9 · 13-07-2012 11:24pm

Orange provocation LITE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TXWFH9GXQY

gurramok · 13-07-2012 11:42pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The SF propaganda machine whipping people up into a frenzy again I see.

For clarification, this event(video) took place in Carrick Hill of Belfast which results in a highly likely probability that the majority of the nationalists watching would have be voting primarily SF. Other nationalist areas(south Belfast) would be SDLP for example.

Its not the same landscape down here in Dubland/Cork for example(we have FG/FF/Lab primarily), you have to put yourself in Belfast's interface context where the likelihood of encountering a SF man or a DUP man is quite high if you wander into their respective constituency.

The 2 videos show an audience behind police lines watching an extremist Loyalist band outside a Catholic church, its bloody obvious it ain't a SF stunt just because a SF activist filmed it. That cameraman could of been a foreign tourist or one of the bandsmen himself, the camera does not lie.

philologos · 13-07-2012 11:47pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You may not intend it but you certainly are.

I don't think I am at all.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I rarely reply to your daft evangelism but I have to this time; I'll sum up what you've wrote. You're basically saying 'If only all these people could be more of a good Christian like me then all these problems would go away'.

You probed into my Christianity in the last post. If you don't want to hear about it, don't bring it up is always a good sign.

If you think that Christianity is about superiority, then you've misunderstood it. Simply put, in becoming a Christian, one recognises that they are a sinner who has only been saved by Jesus Christ and this is not as a result of good works done by the individual, but by the grace of God. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Chuck Stone wrote: »

All you're succeeding in doing here is underscoring the my original comment.

I can't see how.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I won't be responding to you any further on this thread.

Sure. Despite the fact that you're the one who brought my faith into this?

philologos · 13-07-2012 11:49pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Interested in seeing all the peaceful marches? Or should we allow ourselves to be only shown the bad eggs?

Inciting hatred is a powerful tool which lessens the chances of open dialogue on both sides of the divide.

Indeed. Some people would have you believe that there isn't a Twelfth parade that can happen in peaceful communities.

Believe it or not, in this years parades there are good compromises being made in some areas.

gurramok · 14-07-2012 12:01am

philologos wrote: »

Indeed. Some people would have you believe that there isn't a Twelfth parade that can happen in peaceful communities.

Believe it or not, in this years parades there are good compromises being made in some areas.

Thats because the Orange Order talked to Crumlin residents, compromise was reached. They refuse to talk to Ardyone residents all these years Drumcree style.

orange provocation

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