Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

eastwest · 24-01-2014 12:51pm

sonnyblack wrote: »

I hate to be pouring cold water on the valiant efforts of the Sligo Mayo Greenway people but surely it is correct to say that if the County Councillors and the County councils are against the greenway then it simply can't happen.
They have the power to make the final decision to support it or not. Varadkar will be unlikely to get involved in a local issue while they are against it in my opinion. It would take a sea change in local politics and all the councillors to be swept from office in May to see any change in attitude. This is unlikely to happen i would have thought as these these councillers are established figures working for their constituents on all local matters.
Unfortunately I can't see anything other than stalemate on this item.

The next talking point will be the publication of the Irish Rail figures on the current line following the online booking and fare dropping last year

Varadker is clear enough on one thing; there won't be a railway on the route in the foreseeable future. You're right though, this means stalemate if the council won't recognise this reality and keeps chasing the railway nonsense, even where it's dressed up as a 'velo rail project'.
The squatters on the line are breathing easier this week; their position is now pretty much secure.

westtip · 24-01-2014 1:28pm

sonnyblack wrote: »

I hate to be pouring cold water on the valiant efforts of the Sligo Mayo Greenway people but surely it is correct to say that if the County Councillors and the County councils are against the greenway then it simply can't happen.
They have the power to make the final decision to support it or not. Varadkar will be unlikely to get involved in a local issue while they are against it in my opinion. It would take a sea change in local politics and all the councillors to be swept from office in May to see any change in attitude. This is unlikely to happen i would have thought as these these councillers are established figures working for their constituents on all local matters.
Unfortunately I can't see anything other than stalemate on this item.

The next talking point will be the publication of the Irish Rail figures on the current line following the online booking and fare dropping last year

A truly valid point but I think what is clearly coming out from Mayo, Sligo, Galway and even down in the pro-tourist county (usually) Kerry that if the use of old railways are left to the councils to decide if they are to be properly utilised as greenways - as they are in every other European country - not to mention USA, Australia, NZ etc etc, then we will get nowhere. Local interests and protection of a small minority of local interests will be the driving force be they the odd farmer here and there, or one person who wants 2 km of a line for private velorail venture or a group who campaign for a railway that simply does not stand up to any economic analysis. We need not forget the financial interests of councillors sitting on committees talking about railways every two months and collecting expenses for every meeting they attend.

If the county councils had been left to plan the motorway system what would have happened - we need a national strategy on this issue.

I think this case and the nonsense happening in Kerry on the old north kerry line just points to one thing, the county councils have to be taken out of the equation. These railways are nationally owned assets and the greenway/national cycle network will be part of our national infrastructure. Government needs to govern in the national interests and in this case government needs to take the councils out of the mix and say this is what is going to happen. You are not getting a railway we will fund a greenway. Period. Full stop. End of story. Live with it.

eastwest · 24-01-2014 6:03pm

westtip wrote: »

A truly valid point but I think what is clearly coming out from Mayo, Sligo, Galway and even down in the pro-tourist county (usually) Kerry that if the use of old railways are left to the councils to decide if they are to be properly utilised as greenways - as they are in every other European country - not to mention USA, Australia, NZ etc etc, then we will get nowhere. Local interests and protection of a small minority of local interests will be the driving force be they the odd farmer here and there, or one person who wants 2 km of a line for private velorail venture or a group who campaign for a railway that simply does not stand up to any economic analysis. We need not forget the financial interests of councillors sitting on committees talking about railways every two months and collecting expenses for every meeting they attend.

If the county councils had been left to plan the motorway system what would have happened - we need a national strategy on this issue.

I think this case and the nonsense happening in Kerry on the old north kerry line just points to one thing, the county councils have to be taken out of the equation. These railways are nationally owned assets and the greenway/national cycle network will be part of our national infrastructure. Government needs to govern in the national interests and in this case government needs to take the councils out of the mix and say this is what is going to happen. You are not getting a railway we will fund a greenway. Period. Full stop. End of story. Live with it.

Too logical for politicians. Down with that sort of thing.

wonder88 · 25-01-2014 11:48pm

It seems that people on this thread do not like elected politicians making decisions on public policy, I find this attitude very strange.

corktina · 26-01-2014 1:51am

Are you suggesting that people should do what politicians tell them too rather than the other way around?

foggy_lad · 26-01-2014 2:46am

hardCopy wrote: »

I just Googled velo-rail. What an absolutely moronic invention. As useful as a chocolate tea-pot.

Wouldn't that bike-rail need double tracking of the line?

corktina · 26-01-2014 3:23am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Wouldn't that bike-rail need double tracking of the line?

I would think so or you'd have to lift the thing off the rails everytime you met someone else

eastwest · 26-01-2014 9:21am

wonder88 wrote: »

It seems that people on this thread do not like elected politicians making decisions on public policy, I find this attitude very strange.

It is strange, I suppose. The government has already decided that it will not fund any extension of the Ennis-Athenry debacle, clearly in tune with hard-pressed taxpayers who abhor waste. A few posters on this thread don't agree with that, but that's democracy.
They may be out of touch with reality, but they are entitled to their view.

eastwest · 26-01-2014 9:27am

corktina wrote: »

I would think so or you'd have to lift the thing off the rails everytime you met someone else

Apparently if you don't lay a circular track for it, you have to swop bikes when you meet someone. That can get really daft if more than two bikes are being rented at a time.
That is one of the issues that hasn't been considered by councillors; not only will the line have to be re-laid for velo bikes, but mini platforms will have to be provided every hundred yards for these changeovers.
'Debacle' is the term that springs to mind. This proposal is about as well considered as the decision to pour taxpayers money into the Ennis-Athenry section.
This velo rail proposal is just a line restoration project dressed up as a tourism attraction, and the councillors fell for it.

westtip · 26-01-2014 11:24am

wonder88 wrote: »

It seems that people on this thread do not like elected politicians making decisions on public policy, I find this attitude very strange.

What a bizarre post. However as posted by EASTWEST, The minister of transport, has made it very clear there will be no further extensions of the Western Rail Corridor.

Re the Velo -Rail issue that has yet to be decided and in any event hopefully the decision will be taken out of the hands of MCC when Irish Rail tell them to take a running jump with their toy train set idea!

westtip · 26-01-2014 7:49pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Wouldn't that bike-rail need double tracking of the line?

They tend to go in one direction only; probably the best example of a velo-rail is on what I think is the longest Velo-Route in France where abandonned railway lines have been converted to be used as Velo-Rails is 12 km long. On the Gorge de doux – it is used in a one way direction down a panoramic gorge and costs about €50 for an adult and two children to make the decent of the gorge on the old rail line on a velo rail cart. Details can be found at this link http://www.velorailardeche.com/informations-pratiques-gb.html~

It is a novel idea and has some merit in particular when going through an area of such outstanding natural beauty as the The Gorge de Doux. Herein may lie a weakness of the idea of Mayo coco to put a velo-rail on the route north of Claremorris, in fact a weakness which has indeed been highlighted by pressure group west on track

A submission to MCC by pressure group West on Track (Submission No D-MCDP-300 Colman O Raghallaigh on behalf of West on Track ) stated (the comment in brackets refers to the comparison of the railway route with the Great Wstn. Gway)

“there is no comparable scenery along the Claremorris-Collooney route (compared to the Great Western greenway) which remains a rail line in the possession of the state.”

This seems to be a very negative attitude to the simple beauty of the route running through open countryside in East Sligo and East Mayo which would be very appealing to ordinary people out cycling and walking for a day.

However,West on Tracks view has to be accepted that there is no grand canyon on the route, and unlike the highly successful Gorge de Doux velo rail route, a route through the boring old bog of East Mayo is not likely to stand up as a tourist attraction in its own right for a short stretch of the railway line as a velo rail route. The West on Track group though has missed the point about a greenway on the route; it’s not about “grand scenery” but all about families being able to get out and enjoy themselves for a walk or cycle without fear of being hit by a car or truck. It’s about long distance cycling and walking tourists who want to do a long distance route as a sense of achievement. It's about people landing in Knock Airport, hiring a bike in Charlestown then cycling to say Claremorris and staying overnight before they cycle on to Westport, Achill etc. Or landing in Knock then cycling north to Sligo...(something Mayo county council is not keen to encourage). However the West on Track disparaging attitude towards the countryside in their own part of the county is somewhat depressing to read.

I wonder if those proposing the Velo Rail are aware of West on Tracks view of the countryside in the surrounding area - its hardly what I would call an advert to draw visitors...

Oh by the way - apparently West on Track say the railway will help tourism, - to help tourists make sure they get through the dull countryside first and get on the first train out of or going through East Mayo and East Sligo!:D

corktina · 26-01-2014 8:52pm

so...the route isn't scenic enough for a Greenway but is for a velo-deathtrap?

relaxed · 26-01-2014 9:40pm

corktina wrote: »

so...the route isn't scenic enough for a Greenway but is for a velo-deathtrap?

what will the tired and hungry tourists make of it all:D

westtip · 27-01-2014 12:45am

corktina wrote: »

so...the route isn't scenic enough for a Greenway but is for a velo-deathtrap?

Corky you know full well my arguments! I have never claimed it is a stunning scenery along the route, but the important thing is the route offers the opportunity for fairly easy going cycling for a long distance in open country side and will bring people directly into existing service areas (town centres) for refreshments and a bed for the night. Its the connectivity the route will provide between Sligo/Mayo/Galway and outwards onto the Great Western Greenway that is so important. It will also provide an excellent local amenity and save those speed walking women on the N17 from walking along a death trap!

Not every greenway in the world goes through stunning scenery, but we need a connected network and the old railways provide a simple solution

relaxed wrote: »

what will the tired and hungry tourists make of it all:D

Actually I am sure they will enjoy the open countryside they are being allowed to enjoy, you see the problem with those who say its not "stunning countryside" is they have never left the place to appreciate what they have.

I was cycling once in Holland - pretty dull flat country side - but wonderful vistas of wide horizons, dykes and stunningly dramatic skylines as they met the horizon of the flat open countryside, Vincent Van Gogh saw the beauty of the light in those Dutch skylines, Equally the sheer openness of the bog may be quite beautiful and stunningly different for a visitor to this country to see, sometimes we don't open our eyes to the fact that our open farmland and bog land as a landscape can have a beauty of its own just as much as a fine view of the Clew Bay coast and Croagh Patrick across the bay. Beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. West on Track should open their eyes to the beauty that surrounds them.

corktina · 27-01-2014 5:33am

think you misunderstood me westy

westtip · 27-01-2014 10:34am

corktina wrote: »

think you misunderstood me westy

Was being tongue in cheek Corky, I didn't misunderstand you, but others might;)

The whole thing is completely bizarre, I just hope the Minister and Irish Rail knock this little smoke screen away, because that's what it is. An attempt of distraction - the councillors need educating that the old railway line is not the issue - its the route that is the issue, they may well get it and they may well know it, but it's all about the old boys club they can't be seen to break ranks with the beloved holy grail that has been accepted doctrine for over a decade and when "forces from outside the county" - come telling them something different, they close ranks, this is what is happening now. Closed ranks on any idea that does not originate from "within the county". It's truly bizarre but that is what this whole thing has has become. The dogma is, We may not be having our railway but we sure as hell will not accept an idea that came from outsiders to do something useful.

eastwest · 27-01-2014 11:24am

I think you're all giving too much credit to councillors. These guys know the facts about the route, although admittedly they know feck all about tourism. For them though the public interest isn't what's important, it's the vote-catching potential of the route.
This vote-catching potential, as they see it, is best realised by promising big-ticket items that would extract the maximum funding from Dublin. Wheter these are pie in the sky projects or not is immaterial, it's the ticket price that is most important.
That's why a greenway costing a couple of million is of no interest to them, but a billion euro railway is the absolute holy grail.
They know that it's not coming, but that's not the point. It makes a great election promise; the thoughts of a billion euro sloshing around, and all the spin-off compensation to squatters etc etc is enough to make them drool.

westtip · 28-01-2014 1:04am

Pity Mayo county council didn't speak to Meath county council the attached feasibility report from the meath coco might have rung a few bells - perhaps this quote from early in the document though is enough to get the message across to our planners in Mayo:

Can you spot the parallels!!!! Its not hard!!!: extracted from the attached management consulting report for meath coco (my emboldenment)

The rail line is entirely on the ownership of CIE and is classified as a disused rail line. The line isoperated by Irish Rail in terms of the on-going maintenance. Because the line is entirely within the ownership of the State this removes a significant potential barrier to the development of the
Greenway.
1.3.2 The feasibility study has identified a practical option for the greenway to be developed and maintained by Meath County Council and Cavan County Council through a license agreement with CIE which would facilitate the route to be reopened as a rail line in the future. The line would remain in the freehold ownership of CIE and would retain its disused classification.
1.4 Condition of the Rail Line
1.4.1 In overall terms the rail corridor offers a relatively flat alignment which is ideal for recreational walkers and cyclists and can readily be redeveloped as a Greenway. The rail tracks and sleepers are by and large still in place but are no longer fit for purpose for carrying rail services. If the line was to be
reopened to rail traffic then the tracks and sleepers would be required to be removed and replaced. The option of retaining or removing the track and sleepers was considered and the recommendation
is to remove the tracks and sleepers.

Dolani · 28-01-2014 10:00am

I'm interested in this topic and forgive me if I jump in. I live along the Claremorris - Colooney line and am also a committed cycling tourist. I am conscious of the fact that local politicians "down the country" really object to being told by those "up in Dublin" what to do. We have seen that in cases where politicians who would appear - at a national level - to be unsuitable for public office, are returned again and again at constituency or local level. Sadly, it will take the democratic removal of the anti-Greenway councillors to effect change and there doesn't seem to be the critical mass required to manage this. However, we should keep at it. Interestingly, none of the politicians - bar John O'Mahoney - has put his/her head above the parapet on this issue. If I remember properly, Enda Kenny said that the government had no plans to reopen the line, but then he retreated into the usual "Government decisions are collective" mode. Perhaps the time has arrived to begin doorstepping national politicians from the constituencies through which the line runs and have them commit to the Greenway or to the folly of supporting the reopening of the Railway - with an element of public ridicule for the latter stance. You know, it might actually suit the government parties to keep the situation as it is, because we know there will be no railway and if there is no change in the CoCo position - there won't be the necessity to commit funds for the Greenway either.

westtip · 28-01-2014 10:37am

Dolani wrote: »

I'm interested in this topic and forgive me if I jump in. I live along the Claremorris - Colooney line and am also a committed cycling tourist. I am conscious of the fact that local politicians "down the country" really object to being told by those "up in Dublin" what to do. We have seen that in cases where politicians who would appear - at a national level - to be unsuitable for public office, are returned again and again at constituency or local level. Sadly, it will take the democratic removal of the anti-Greenway councillors to effect change and there doesn't seem to be the critical mass required to manage this. However, we should keep at it. Interestingly, none of the politicians - bar John O'Mahoney - has put his/her head above the parapet on this issue. If I remember properly, Enda Kenny said that the government had no plans to reopen the line, but then he retreated into the usual "Government decisions are collective" mode. Perhaps the time has arrived to begin doorstepping national politicians from the constituencies through which the line runs and have them commit to the Greenway or to the folly of supporting the reopening of the Railway - with an element of public ridicule for the latter stance. You know, it might actually suit the government parties to keep the situation as it is, because we know there will be no railway and if there is no change in the CoCo position - there won't be the necessity to commit funds for the Greenway either.

John O'Mahony is a committed supporter of West on Track and will not (or there is no evidence to suggest he is about commit to the idea of the greenway now railway when we can afford it strategy. West on Track have made a big deal of his support on their facebook page. He needs to get to grip with reality. Enda Kenny did say he liked the idea of the greenway when in opposition but has kept quiet on the subject since, which is a pity. Ring as minister of tourism has not uttered a word, privately we think he is against the SMG on the WRC as he thinks it will "dilute" the drawing power of the Great western greenway for Westport (he is afterall Minister for Tourism (in Westport). He doesn't have the vision to see the greater connectivity the great western greenway has to a natiional cycle network the greater the attraction becomes for long distance touring cyclists coming on holiday for a week or more. The councillor will all tell you privately they agree the greenway is about the only option getting them to admit to this publically or support the idea in MCC chamber is a different matter - but you are right we must keep at them all at every level.

Dolani · 28-01-2014 12:03pm

Indeed Westtip, you are absolutely correct. Not only did John O'Mahoney support WOT, he brought in the red herring of Knock Airport and the possibility of running a branch there. By adding this dimension - building a railway line from scratch - one can only wonder at his tenuous connection to this planet. If his thinking is so positioned in the stratosphere, perhaps he might forego his attendance allowance for Dail Eireann. The only likely train from Claremorris to Knock - or does he envisage a spur from Kiltimagh - would likely be on wheels along the hard shoulder of the N17!

serfboard · 28-01-2014 1:11pm

westtip wrote: »

Pity Mayo county council didn't speak to Meath county council the attached feasibility report from the meath coco might have rung a few bells - perhaps this quote from early in the document though is enough to get the message across to our planners in Mayo:

Can you spot the parallels!!!! Its not hard!!!: extracted from the attached management consulting report for meath coco (my emboldenment)

From the report:

The rail line is entirely on the ownership of CIE and is classified as a disused rail line.

But I've told ye already - the WRC is not classified as a disused rail line - it's classified as "Engineering Sidings". And that's a totally different thing. Altogether.

westtip · 28-01-2014 1:58pm

serfboard wrote: »

From the report:
But I've told ye already - the WRC is not classified as a disused rail line - it's classified as "Engineering Sidings". And that's a totally different thing. Altogether.

Love it!:D I know you couldn't make it up. When was the last time you saw an engineering support unit trundling up the "sidings" that the WRC apparently is. Of course the Reverend Wilbury Audrey beat us all too it.
http://www.thomasandfriends.com/en-us/index.html

And Thomas had a branch line all of his own.

eastwest · 28-01-2014 3:12pm

Afaik the so-called WRC is classified as a siding as far north as Claremorris only. After that it is disused, I believe.
I'm open to correction, if anyone has more detail.

corktina · 28-01-2014 3:46pm

that was my understanding, although wasn't it cleared using a rail mounted flail?

westtip · 28-01-2014 9:57pm

Thought would try and get a definition on irishrail.ie Instead stumbled on this

in the link on irishrail.ie on the page called Investment in Iarnrod Eireann the following statement is made http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=115&n=124

Further investment is planned to continue the development of the rail network. However, some major projects have been deferred due to reduction in capital expenditure, which are indicated below.

and these are the project listed:

For further details on outstanding individual Iarnród Éireann projects under the investment programme, please click on the relevant links below:

DART Underground
DART Underground
The DART Underground rail line will complete the trebling of the Greater Dublin area's rail service capacity from 33 million passenger journeys annually now to 100 million passenger journeys upon completion. PROJECT DEFERRED

KRP Adamstown
Kildare Route Project Phase 2
The overall objective of the project is to facilitate increased capacity and frequency between the new DART Underground station at Inchicore and Hazelhatch/Celbridge station. PROJECT DEFERRED

National Fleet Investment
National & Commuter Fleet Investment
Please click here for a full schedule of our fleet renewal plan.

Navan Railway Dunboyne Station
Navan Railway Line
This project would see extend the existing line from M3 Parkway station to Navan. The proposed extension will consist of 34 km of railway line. PROJECT DEFERRED

City Centre ReSignalling
City Centre Resignalling
This project will meet the ever increasing demand for rail transport by increasing the capacity and frequency of trains through Dublin City Centre.

Can anyone spot which project is missing - even from the list of projects in which the big capital letters PROJECT DEFERRED follows the project. The prize for the first correct answer is a round of cheese sandwiches a flask of cocoa and two exceptionally rare platform tickets for crusheen railway station on a wet wednesday in november...

It is interesting in its absence from this page of listed projects on the IE website...It would appear not only is the project unlikely to happen it doesn't even make it to the Irish Rail website as a potential project...Has anyone told MCC..I think all councillors might need to see a screen shot of this!

Dolani · 29-01-2014 2:46pm

corktina wrote: »

that was my understanding, although wasn't it cleared using a rail mounted flail?

Walking the last mile or two into Kiltimagh from the Claremorris direction, it's obvious that the flail needs to be rolled out once more.:)

westtip · 29-01-2014 2:56pm

Dolani wrote: »

Walking the last mile or two into Kiltimagh from the Claremorris direction, it's obvious that the flail needs to be rolled out once more.:)

dolani if you can post up a few photos of the line in your area, Thanks.

eastwest · 30-01-2014 12:49am

Dolani wrote: »

Walking the last mile or two into Kiltimagh from the Claremorris direction, it's obvious that the flail needs to be rolled out once more.:)

If you go a bit further north, it's a JCB you'd need to break through the fences, cattle pens, trailers, slurry tankers and round bales that block the route.

westtip · 30-01-2014 1:00am

eastwest wrote: »

If you go a bit further north, it's a JCB you'd need to break through the fences, cattle pens, trailers, slurry tankers and round bales that block the route.

This is why councillors oppose the greenway - too many of their mates would have to get off the land they are trespassing on, and they will all be looking for compensation as if it is a given right to get compensation for stealing what does not belong to you. West on Track are right about one thing - this route is a huge national asset but they never ever mention the encroachment on it - all they do is focus on trying to stop the one positive suggestion there is (the greenway) to protect the route forever in the unlikely event their toy train is ever given permission to come back.

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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