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Ireland-Openside Flankers

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Hagz wrote: »
    O'Brien plays 7 for Leinster. He won European player of the year playing 7 in Leinsters HEC games last season and he has been playing there again this season.

    Hes just a different type of 7.

    That's not exactly true though is it? O'Brien played 3 games in the Heinken Cup at 7, and in those games, Jennings would come on in or around half-time at which point he's move back to 6. He played 4 games at blindside and 2 games at 8 and it's safe to say he was much more impressive in those games.
    He started all of the knockout games and the final at 7 with McLoughlin at 6. He also played there a lot before the leg break. It seems Leinsters first choice back row is KMcL/SOB/Heaslip.

    Not every 7 has to be focused on the breakdown, especially when your 8 is such a brilliant breakdown player.

    I think people are just confused about what they want from our pack. We are turning over plenty of ball and we slow it down as well as anyone in the world. As for creating quick, neat possession, I've always looked more to the tight 5 for that than an openside. O'Brien is playing pretty average rugby but hes still a massive threat that opposition defenses have to account for.

    If we had an international standard openside to select, I'd be all for a change. We don't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Bromium


    A 7 doesn't need to turnover ruckball, a player capable of making a nuisance of themselves and slowing down ball is just as relevant. POM is that type of player. He has plenty enough pace to be a very successful 7.

    By your own statement you have just given the reason that POM won't start. He isn't the type of player to turn over ruck ball which is what we are looking for if we are looking for the fabled natural born 7. We have three superior operators in the backrow who can make a nuisance of themselves and a lot more to boot so why would we start looking at another player in the same mould as what we have.

    The issue about an out and out 7 is a joke anyway its gathered far to much steam when its blatantly obvious that what's killing us is a terrible game plan.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    O'Brien was shifted to 7 for those games firstly because McLaughlin was such an asset at the line-out and secondly because as the game broke down his shift to 6 would allow him to go crazy carrying the ball.

    As far as I'm concerned, we may not have a superior '7', but O'Mahony did himself no harm off the bench yesterday and he plays a different game to SOB that might be worth a look at. He's much more of a nuisance without the ball, whereas O'Brien is a nuisance with it. There shouldn't be a reluctancy to rotate players when there is little to no risk involved.


  • Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    He is nothing like Leamy and Wallace isn't "an out and out 7". If he is to be compared with anyone from the recent Irish setup, it would be a young Quinlan (who was often a 7 afaik).

    A 7 doesn't need to turnover ruckball, a player capable of making a nuisance of themselves and slowing down ball is just as relevant. POM is that type of player. He has plenty enough pace to be a very successful 7. He has even turned out for Con on the wing when returning from injury.

    SOB could well have played more professional rugby at 7 than 6. The problem is that now that he is no longer in a purple patch of form, the deficiencies in his game as a 7 are standing out.

    POM is like Leamy in the sense that he isn't specialised in any one backrow position, and doesn't look like he will settle into one position.

    Even when SOB is wearing the 7 jersey at Leinster, he's there to carry ball, break lines and suck in defenders, i.e. play as a blindside.
    He's clearly a specialist blindside and the Leinster coaching set up treat him as such.


  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Bromium


    Hagz wrote: »
    There shouldn't be a reluctancy to rotate players when there is little to no risk involved.
    Well he didn't really make any huge impact either coming on when a team was beaten and I think we will come to realise that there will be a risk involved as SOB's defensive work is immense and he is everywhere around the park. Things which are overlooked now that he is not making the big carries mostly due to the poor game plan.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    skregs wrote: »
    POM is like Leamy in the sense that he isn't specialised in any one backrow position, and doesn't look like he will settle into one position.

    Leamy is an 8 that can play 6, simple as.

    How can you say POM won't settle into one position?! It's basically his first season as a Munster starter


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    Bromium wrote: »
    Well he didn't really make any huge impact either coming on when a team was beaten and I think we will come to realise that there will be a risk involved as SOB's defensive work is immense and he is everywhere around the park. Things which are overlooked now that he is not making the big carries mostly due to the poor game plan.

    He made as big an impact as you can ask of a player getting his first cap. He got really stuck in, making big tackles and enthusiastic all round.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭boynesider


    SOB was average yesterday but he was excellent against Wales.

    People are losing the run of themselves looking for him to be dropped and I'm really starting to feel sorry for the poor lad. People seem to think he isn't playing well unless he runs over half the opposition team which is just rubbish.

    He is world class and Kidney would be crazy not to play him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    Why does the word dropped have to be used??? Ross isn't dropped when White starts ahead of him for Leinster. SOB shouldn't be 'dropped', but we should look at O'Mahony. If SOB moved to 6 would that make people feel better? But then of course Ferris would have to be 'dropped'. Oh well, let's just not build a squad so. Ever think that a bit of competition might be good for the back-row??..


  • Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    Hagz wrote: »
    Why does the word dropped have to be used??? Ross isn't dropped when White starts ahead of him for Leinster. SOB shouldn't be 'dropped', but we should look at O'Mahony. If SOB moved to 6 would that make people feel better? But then of course Ferris would have to be 'dropped'. Oh well, let's just not build a squad so. Ever think that a bit of competition might be good for the back-row??..

    Deccie needs to grow a pair of balls and pick his best players in their best positions.

    SOB and Ferris should duke it out for the 6 jersey, and someone else should go for the no. 7.
    Same with ROG/Sexton, let's play Johnny at 12 and ROG at 10 because I'm too afraid of people giving out to me for not playing one or the other.
    We have a two Heineken Cup winning SH starting behind a guy with 0 H-Cups, and we have a two Heineken Cup winning SH and another Heineken Cup winning SH who can't even get into the squad. It would be different if he was a James O'Connor-esque prodigy but he ain't all that great.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    skregs wrote: »
    Deccie needs to grow a pair of balls and pick his best players in their best positions.

    SOB and Ferris should duke it out for the 6 jersey, and someone else should go for the no. 7.
    Same with ROG/Sexton, let's play Johnny at 12 and ROG at 10 because I'm too afraid of people giving out to me for not playing one or the other.
    We have a two Heineken Cup winning SH starting behind a guy with 0 H-Cups, and we have a two Heineken Cup winning SH and another Heineken Cup winning SH who can't even get into the squad. It would be different if he was a James O'Connor-esque prodigy but he ain't all that great.


    Like who, Jennings has often been touted as the best out and out 7 in the country and he's behind SOB at 7 for Leinster.

    I think people are trying to make an issue where there really isnt one, yes we're not playing great but its very lazy to just look at the team, decide SOB isnt a 7 and lay the blame there, what exactly are the problems we're suffering from that would be solved by an out and out 7, assuming we had one capable of playing test rugby.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,832 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Hagz wrote: »
    Why does the word dropped have to be used??? Ross isn't dropped when White starts ahead of him for Leinster. SOB shouldn't be 'dropped', but we should look at O'Mahony. If SOB moved to 6 would that make people feel better? But then of course Ferris would have to be 'dropped'. Oh well, let's just not build a squad so. Ever think that a bit of competition might be good for the back-row??..

    Kidney is (unfortunately) not Schmidt. He simply does not rotate players so that is why the word dropping is used, as that is what it would be. If Schmidt went into a tough HC away semi final and started Ruddock/Ryan ahead of SOB then I would probably use the word dropped as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Leamy is an 8 that can play 6, simple as.

    First time I've heard him described as such and not the other way around. Never thought of Leamy as an 8.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭PhatPiggins


    Hagz wrote: »
    Why does the word dropped have to be used??? Ross isn't dropped when White starts ahead of him for Leinster. SOB shouldn't be 'dropped', but we should look at O'Mahony. If SOB moved to 6 would that make people feel better? But then of course Ferris would have to be 'dropped'. Oh well, let's just not build a squad so. Ever think that a bit of competition might be good for the back-row??..

    I completely agree with you but I'd go a different route for the 6N's. I'd have the likes of POM,Murray,Cronin coming on for 20 minutes in every game rather then rotating the starting XV. Schmidt has definitely shown us the blueprint for squad building but he has the Pro12 and HC group games to tinker with, stakes are a bit too high in the 6N's for that type of chopping and changing. I'd be all for it in the summer though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Buceph


    GerM wrote: »
    First time I've heard him described as such and not the other way around. Never thought of Leamy as an 8.

    I think it's fair enough to say POM is like Leamy, whether you view Leamy as an 8 or 6 first (although he's definitely a 6, as is POM.)

    I don't think POM is a seven though, just like SOB isn't a seven. Any of the turnovers I've seen POM get has come from being the second or third player into a ruck, and winning it after pressure from the first entrants. A seven's job is to be the first at the ruck first and foremost, he should slow down the ball, and create the possibility of a turnover whether it's a turnover he secures or whether he creates enough commotion that the later ruck entrants can get the turnover. Most of all the seven should be ensuring that the attackers don't get away with putting in minimal ruckers. The seven's job is totally defense orientated in that sense, he should be first at every second ruck. And that's also why sevens can turn over a lot of ball, they're first there so they're going to pick any 50/50 rucks. POM is rarely the first at rucks, he can clear them, but he's usually second or third and that's where he wins ball. And he wins ball that way to create his own attacks from it, either from the base of the ruck in a pick and go, or being available to the 9 for a pop pass.

    Similarly, the seven needs to be able to close up the openside backline gaps. They're usually the fastest, but not really the biggest of the backrows. When the eight is the attacker, a big runner, they can run at the 9/10 channel from a scrum. And it's the opposing seven who needs to be able to close that space off. The defending 9 isn't big enough to stop a full flowing 8, and should be watching the attacking scrum half anyway (and is usually impeded by him when the attacking eight runs, anyway.) Similarly, the defending seven needs to be able to put pressure on any backline movement from a passed scrum, because attacking backline movement has the most space to work in off a scrum/lineout (and lineouts are another case where a seven will be the first man left out in a shortened one.) POM's strength is in his attack, he carries well and makes yards, but he isn't big enough for an 8, and his defending is good enough to deal with an opposing eight going into the blind side, but not good enough for the kind of backline move you might get off a scrum, so six is the best spot for him.

    To be honest, I'd have to see him hitting a lot more rucks as the first person, and making far more of the critical tackles in defense before I'd consider him above O'Brien, because at the moment O'Brien is far better in attack than POM, and has proven himself extremely reliable in defense, even if he isn't the typical seven. So if we're going to play a non-typical seven, then we might as well go with the proven better player. At least until POM shows he has game in more places than O'Brien.


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭Leinster7


    No team has won the World Cup without a World Class open-side so go-figure.

    All great rugby teams have a class 7, its a pivotal position, as important as 2, 9 and 10.

    It was Michael Jones who won the first world cup in 87', the man who invented the 'technical offside' open-side support play ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭rugbyman2015


    O'Mahoney didn't do too bad there against Scotland? Nice steal and a demonstration to SO'B about what he needs to be doing more regularly when in the 7 role.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    O'Mahoney didn't do too bad there against Scotland? Nice steal and a demonstration to SO'B about what he needs to be doing more regularly when in the 7 role.

    Did you watch the France game perchance? Because if you did you'd have seen SOB with a nice steal of his own which gave us possession which allowed Bowe to score his 2nd.


  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Bromium


    danthefan wrote: »
    Did you watch the France game perchance? Because if you did you'd have seen SOB with a nice steal of his own which gave us possession which allowed Bowe to score his 2nd.

    +1


  • Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    I dont think you can judge O'Mahony on that one Scotland game. We'll have to see how he plays at 7 a good few more times before we can judge him vs. o'brien.

    Personally i think SOB is an underrated 7. id much rather see him at 6 but ferris deserves to start at 6 imo.
    Realistically they are both just interim 7's until Gilsenan/Ryan/Coneely come through. By then O'Brien and O'Mahony could well be starting at 6 and 8, depending on how ferris' knee fares out.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭rugbyman2015


    Agree with your points lads. I'm a major fan of Sean O'Brien and while POM wasn't world class by any means against Scotland and it was against poor quality opposition, I'm looking for pointers from people on how they contribute to the team when they play at 7.

    I expect O'Brien to return for the England game should that infection heal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 338 ✭✭SARZY


    Ye all sound like Hook. All bluster and No detail. What are the attributes of a 7. Its not about how any particular man played against Scotland, its about which player demonstrates the essential attributes of a genuine 7.
    O'Mahony did just that in one match more than O'Brien has in his career to date.
    O'Brien and Ferris are one and the same. That is part of the reason Heaslip is not being seen to perform.
    Give O'Mahony an extended run and choose between Ferris and O'Brien for the blind side and be fair to both, giving O'Brien a real opportunity when selected to stake a claim in his natural position.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 338 ✭✭SARZY


    Buceph wrote: »
    I think it's fair enough to say POM is like Leamy, whether you view Leamy as an 8 or 6 first (although he's definitely a 6, as is POM.)

    I don't think POM is a seven though, just like SOB isn't a seven. Any of the turnovers I've seen POM get has come from being the second or third player into a ruck, and winning it after pressure from the first entrants. A seven's job is to be the first at the ruck first and foremost, he should slow down the ball, and create the possibility of a turnover whether it's a turnover he secures or whether he creates enough commotion that the later ruck entrants can get the turnover. Most of all the seven should be ensuring that the attackers don't get away with putting in minimal ruckers. The seven's job is totally defense orientated in that sense, he should be first at every second ruck. And that's also why sevens can turn over a lot of ball, they're first there so they're going to pick any 50/50 rucks. POM is rarely the first at rucks, he can clear them, but he's usually second or third and that's where he wins ball. And he wins ball that way to create his own attacks from it, either from the base of the ruck in a pick and go, or being available to the 9 for a pop pass.

    Similarly, the seven needs to be able to close up the openside backline gaps. They're usually the fastest, but not really the biggest of the backrows. When the eight is the attacker, a big runner, they can run at the 9/10 channel from a scrum. And it's the opposing seven who needs to be able to close that space off. The defending 9 isn't big enough to stop a full flowing 8, and should be watching the attacking scrum half anyway (and is usually impeded by him when the attacking eight runs, anyway.) Similarly, the defending seven needs to be able to put pressure on any backline movement from a passed scrum, because attacking backline movement has the most space to work in off a scrum/lineout (and lineouts are another case where a seven will be the first man left out in a shortened one.) POM's strength is in his attack, he carries well and makes yards, but he isn't big enough for an 8, and his defending is good enough to deal with an opposing eight going into the blind side, but not good enough for the kind of backline move you might get off a scrum, so six is the best spot for him.

    To be honest, I'd have to see him hitting a lot more rucks as the first person, and making far more of the critical tackles in defense before I'd consider him above O'Brien, because at the moment O'Brien is far better in attack than POM, and has proven himself extremely reliable in defense, even if he isn't the typical seven. So if we're going to play a non-typical seven, then we might as well go with the proven better player. At least until POM shows he has game in more places than O'Brien.

    Some heap of s***e you are goin on with there. Game in more places is total c**p talk. Thats me done with this place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Bromium


    SARZY wrote: »
    Ye all sound like Hook. All bluster and No detail. What are the attributes of a 7. Its not about how any particular man played against Scotland, its about which player demonstrates the essential attributes of a genuine 7.
    O'Mahony did just that in one match more than O'Brien has in his career to date.
    O'Brien and Ferris are one and the same. That is part of the reason Heaslip is not being seen to perform.
    Give O'Mahony an extended run and choose between Ferris and O'Brien for the blind side and be fair to both, giving O'Brien a real opportunity when selected to stake a claim in his natural position.

    Sounds like a hook statement a sweeping statement on very little evidence. One game is all we have seen so far and against a very poor opposition where in fact a lot of his time was spent loose the very thing SOB was criticised for lets see a bit more of POM (more then one game)before we get carried away and decide he deserves SOBs starting spot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    SARZY wrote: »
    Give O'Mahony an extended run and choose between Ferris and O'Brien for the blind side and be fair to both, giving O'Brien a real opportunity when selected to stake a claim in his natural position.

    You do know POMs natural position is 6 as well right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    molloyjh wrote: »
    You do know POMs natural position is 6 as well right?

    I think the bigger issue is that he thinks SOB stands a chance of usurping Ferris.

    POM may not have played much rugby at 7, but he has put in a pretty fine impression of a 7 in the few times he has togged out there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭EPointer=Birdss


    SARZY wrote: »
    Ye all sound like Hook. All bluster and No detail. What are the attributes of a 7. Its not about how any particular man played against Scotland, its about which player demonstrates the essential attributes of a genuine 7.
    O'Mahony did just that in one match more than O'Brien has in his career to date.
    O'Brien and Ferris are one and the same. That is part of the reason Heaslip is not being seen to perform.
    Give O'Mahony an extended run and choose between Ferris and O'Brien for the blind side and be fair to both, giving O'Brien a real opportunity when selected to stake a claim in his natural position.

    SOB & Ferris are both 6s but very different players. SOB is more of a player ball in hand whiles Feris defending, with both strong non the less in the reverse.

    If Ferris stays fit SOB has no hope of shifting him. He needs to accept his position at 7 & learn it. I thought he did well against France & is coming on. I do notice though that the 7 role is affecting is chances to carry & with so many only rating players for number of tries scored & line breaks he is media suffering. He does a lot around the pitch in the tight but none of that is flashy bar an obvious steal.
    I Would like to see Ire use him more in the centers on phase play. After 2 or 3 phases use him to batter up the middle with the likes of Bowe running off the shoulder. That's where he is dangerous & would add a lot to team.
    He gives away a lot of penalties still but that's the learning curve he is on.

    POM is good. He's honest, tough & like Ryan full of heart. He is though raw & time & experience will tell. A season for club at 7 will tell & comparing them after 1 start is pointless. SOB has nothin immediate to fear but a year or so will tell. Can only be good for both players to have competition.
    Would like that competition at 8 also to keep Heaslip on his toes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I personally think O'Mahoney will end up as a 7.

    SOB is already a 7 as I've been saying on here constantly and as he's shown many times at provincial level (and emphatically for the first time against France).

    This whole "crisis" was a complete non-issue and I wish people would stop giving George Hook any credit as a rugby pundit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭dtpc191991


    POM did a great job at 7 yesterday. I was watching him and he was often the first Irish player to e every ruck clearing it out. That is the job of a 7 and he did it perfectly.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭dub_skav


    dtpc191991 wrote: »
    POM did a great job at 7 yesterday. I was watching him and he was often the first Irish player to e every ruck clearing it out. That is the job of a 7 and he did it perfectly.
    I actually thought there were a number of rucks off first phase where he was not first there.
    I think he played well, but it certainly wasn't an openside masterclass as some have made out - not you by the way


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