Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

MrJones1973 · 05-10-2014 6:43pm #1

Highjacking OP's post for ....

Mod Gentle Warning

OK folks, It looks like this is going to be 'The strike-thread', so for the proposes of civility I'd ask that we just try to keep the title in mind to focus the debate as a lot of 'kitchen sinks' are going to get thrown around.

We've done the circular blame game of young vs' old teachers to death on here so I think the time is appropriate to move on.

Also the circular argument of ASTI vs TUI/INTO.

Also management vs' teachers.

These can muddy the waters of the substantive issue of the proposed JCSA and the strike action.

As usual...

Read charter (there will be a test for the boldies).
Report stuff ... or use the ignore function for people who annoy you.
It's an open forum so think of it as an oppertunity to challenge and change some peoples' views.

MOD

Are most voting? What way? No real talks have occurred with Minister because of ballot. JMB has suggested we go back to 2011 NCCA proposals-though their timing for this suggestion (during a ballot) is seen as poor.
Bottom line folks unless you are prepared to go out for a few strike days-you're screwed. That's my view-all that's being suggested so far is a few Temporary A posts to help bring it in. Jan also says "Its not about money"

acequion · 05-10-2014 7:37pm

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Are most voting? What way? No real talks have occurred with Minister because of ballot. JMB has suggested we go back to 2011 NCCA proposals-though their timing for this suggestion (during a ballot) is seen as poor.
Bottom line folks unless you are prepared to go out for a few strike days-you're screwed. That's my view-all that's being suggested so far is a few Temporary A posts to help bring it in. Jan also says "Its not about money"

Well she would say that,wouldn't she! In fairness to her,Ruari has left her in a very difficult,if not impossible, position.

In my school, our ASTI reps went all out to remind everybody about the importance of voting.If they would do that in every school there might be a higher than derisory turn out in those ballots. Obviously,I've voted Yes.I say "obviously" as I can see no other alternative than to face down the Government on this one. And personally,I am fully prepared to strike. I teach English and remain as opposed to this JCSA farce as ever.

endakenny · 05-10-2014 8:57pm

acequion wrote: »

Well she would say that,wouldn't she! In fairness to her,Ruari has left her in a very difficult,if not impossible, position.

In my school, our ASTI reps went all out to remind everybody about the importance of voting.If they would do that in every school there might be a higher than derisory turn out in those ballots. Obviously,I've voted Yes.I say "obviously" as I can see no other alternative than to face down the Government on this one. And personally,I am fully prepared to strike. I teach English and remain as opposed to this JCSA farce as ever.

In your opinion, why do so many ASTI members not vote in these ballots?

Apathy is understandable in elections and referenda on constitutional amendments because many people think that the result won't affect them. However, union ballots concern union members' working condition.

55% of ASTI members didn't vote in the original ballot on industrial action with regard to the JCSA. Presumably, they know what the JCSA will entail and thus won't mind assessing their students.

acequion · 05-10-2014 10:37pm

endakenny wrote: »

In your opinion, why do so many ASTI members not vote in these ballots?

Apathy is understandable in elections and referenda on constitutional amendments because many people think that the result won't affect them. However, union ballots concern union members' working condition.

55% of ASTI members didn't vote in the original ballot on industrial action with regard to the JCSA. Presumably, they know what the JCSA will entail and thus won't mind assessing their students.

God only knows why they won't vote,Enda. I suspect it's closer to the same apathy than people realise. And I very much doubt that they're ok about marking their own students. Apart from anything else, that entails a load of unpaid extra work. You'd be amazed at the amount of people that go around with their heads in the sand.

MrJones1973 · 06-10-2014 10:11am

I think a lot of members are tired of constant balloting and know they will be balloted until they give thev "right" answer but ultimately thats only a cop out. If you keep saying No-then it will stick but usually the leadership bullies the members helped by the media and members give in, but to be fair we were the last union standing last time.

endakenny · 06-10-2014 5:28pm

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I think a lot of members are tired of constant balloting and know they will be balloted until they give thev "right" answer but ultimately thats only a cop out. If you keep saying No-then it will stick but usually the leadership bullies the members helped by the media and members give in, but to be fair we were the last union standing last time.

In your opinion, why was the ASTI leadership unwilling to continue industrial action against the HRA?

MrJones1973 · 06-10-2014 5:44pm

Lack of balls to put it plainly. I have talked to several guys in the Department and they have all said a one week strike would have got more. Not an unraveling of HRA but more, But your average teacher is spineless (sadly). If I was advising Jan-I would tell her to stick it to them (teachers) as they will roll over. As I say this a minority report forms in my head-Pat King is on side this time as are parents so perhaps this time? Im like an abused spouse who thinks the ASTI will change but really knows better.

endakenny · 06-10-2014 6:21pm

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Lack of balls to put it plainly.

Do you think that the industrial action that was taken by the ASTI in 2000 and 2001 has something to do with it? The union was seriously damaged because of it.

evolving_doors · 06-10-2014 6:49pm

endakenny wrote: »

Do you think that the industrial action that was taken by the ASTI in 2000 and 2001 has something to do with it? The union was seriously damaged because of it.

How were they damaged? I came to teaching after that ...

endakenny · 06-10-2014 6:53pm

Armelodie wrote: »

How were they damaged? I came to teaching after that ...

I read somewhere that ASTI membership decreased because of it. Why did ASTI members not accept back in 2000 that holding meetings outside school hours was a price worth paying for a pay-rise? Benchmarking posed no threat whatsoever to public-sector workers.

rainbowtrout · 06-10-2014 7:22pm

endakenny wrote: »

Do you think that the industrial action that was taken by the ASTI in 2000 and 2001 has something to do with it? The union was seriously damaged because of it.

I think it's more complex than that. There has been huge numbers retired from teaching since then. if you consider that second level education was made free in the late 60s if anyone went into teaching in the late 60s early 70s they retired in the last 6-7 years (assuming they did the full 40 years).

The vast majority of staff in my school are under 40. I'd say we have maybe 3 teachers over the age of 50. That's not going to be representative of all schools, but there was a huge drive in the last 10 years to get teachers to retire - teachers who were largely union members. Couple that with a booming economy 10 years ago where people could go from job to job and there were teaching jobs out there, new teachers didn't join unions. I know most of the part timers that started with me didn't join the union for the first few years, and it was only when things started getting messy and cuts started that people started really worrying about their jobs. On the other hand, I was made permanent at the start of my job, and joined the union. Both of my parents were in unions and were shop stewards in their time, experienced strikes, so that message was fairly hammered home before I ever started working. I'm not sure it was the same for the other staff I started with.

A lot of working conditions that are taken for granted: 40 hour week, overtime, breaks etc came about as a result of union action, but a lot of workers (not just teachers) forget that.

There are a number of people on my staff who didn't vote, some who like to go 'oh I don't understand any of that union stuff' and then sat there in September asking 'when are we getting our next increment?

evolving_doors · 06-10-2014 7:59pm

As regards the retirees I'd definitely agree with Rainbowtrout... Compared to 8 years ago about 80% of our school's cohort have retired. So talking about the past (2000-2001 even) seems like folklore to most.

In a way I wonder if the best strategy of implementing any organisational change is to incentivise retirement, it may cost a fortune in the short term but it leaves you open to catch all the newbies unaware while they are just finding their feet. Although I have to say that the meetings that our rep attends seem to know what's what.

I'm starting to side with PeterFlynt's notion that the JC assessment will be wrapped up with other 'sweeties' and 'treats' in a future HR2 negotiation. As an issue on its own it'll never get through (I hope!), but throw it in with the kitchen sink, like the last CP/HR then its a case of 'eaten bread is soon forgotten'. Such a pity.

endakenny · 06-10-2014 8:23pm

Armelodie wrote: »

I'm starting to side with PeterFlynt's notion that the JC assessment will be wrapped up with other 'sweeties' and 'treats' in a future HR2 negotiation. As an issue on its own it'll never get through (I hope!), but throw it in with the kitchen sink, like the last CP/HR then its a case of 'eaten bread is soon forgotten'. Such a pity.

So do you think that the JCSA, if it goes through, will lead to an exodus from the teaching profession, which has happened in England?

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-29416923

The union highlights comments from teachers who responded to the survey and stressed these were "classroom teachers and not union activists".

"There is no such thing as work-life balance in this profession. It's so sad - I want to love this job but sometimes it's really hard to know how to," said one.

"This isn't why I became a teacher. This isn't what I want for my family. It's not fair on the pupils, it's not fair on my wife or child and it's not fair on me," said another.

More than a third said they thought about quitting "fairly constantly", with a further 46% saying they considered it from time to time.

One in 10 was actively seeking another job but 10% said they never thought about leaving.

A Department for Education spokeswoman said the government recognised teachers' workload could be "unnecessarily high" with "needless bureaucracy" stopping them spending time teaching.

"The Secretary of State has already made clear to unions that we have a common interest in tackling this."

The spokeswoman said the government had already cut over 21,000 pages of guidance, streamlined the inspection process and made it clear formal written plans are not expected for every lesson.

Peter Flynt · 06-10-2014 10:07pm

Armelodie wrote: »

I'm starting to side with PeterFlynt's notion that the JC assessment will be wrapped up with other 'sweeties' and 'treats' in a future HR2 negotiation. As an issue on its own it'll never get through (I hope!), but throw it in with the kitchen sink, like the last CP/HR then its a case of 'eaten bread is soon forgotten'. Such a pity.

Well Arme. . .

We all saw what teachers signed up to when they were getting their pay cuts and terms and conditions of employed ripped to shreds.

Imagine what they'll sign up to if they are given a small amount of their own money back.

. . . and sure if they don't - It's time to ramp up the threats from the DES.

I could even imagine a "JCSA Allowance". . .Worth a Mars Bar a day where the JCSA will make you work, assess and grade.

acequion · 06-10-2014 10:07pm

endakenny wrote: »

So do you think that the JCSA, if it goes through, will lead to an exodus from the teaching profession, which has happened in England?

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-29416923

The trouble is that people can't go until they're ready financially. I'm in my early fifties and I have to hang in there until at least 60 as I just cannot afford to retire before that. It's all well and good saying people should quit if they're sick of it,but what are such people supposed to do? I've always enjoyed teaching and been good at it,but I really hate the way it's going and am obviously very concerned and apprehensive about the next ten years.

No consideration whatsoever has been given to teachers,either the young or the not so young.It's a sink or swim environment and I would strongly discourage young people from entering this rat race. Sad but true.:(

Peter Flynt · 06-10-2014 10:10pm

acequion wrote: »

The trouble is that people can't go until they're ready financially. I'm in my early fifties and I have to hang in there until at least 60 as I just cannot afford to retire before that. It's all well and good saying people should quit if they're sick of it,but what are such people supposed to do? I've always enjoyed teaching and been good at it,but I really hate the way it's going and am obviously very concerned and apprehensive about the next ten years.

No consideration whatsoever has been given to teachers,either the young or the not so young.It's a sink or swim environment and I would strongly discourage young people from entering this rat race. Sad but true.:(

The policy is simple - Make the profession unbearable for older teachers so that they are forced to retire early and so therefore are not paid a full pension.

Their yellow pack replacement will be more than delighted to work for 30K whilst doing a unpaid B post on the side.

endakenny · 06-10-2014 11:16pm

acequion wrote: »

The trouble is that people can't go until they're ready financially. I'm in my early fifties and I have to hang in there until at least 60 as I just cannot afford to retire before that. It's all well and good saying people should quit if they're sick of it,but what are such people supposed to do? I've always enjoyed teaching and been good at it,but I really hate the way it's going and am obviously very concerned and apprehensive about the next ten years.

No consideration whatsoever has been given to teachers,either the young or the not so young.It's a sink or swim environment and I would strongly discourage young people from entering this rat race. Sad but true.:(

What I meant was: could the JCSA lead to younger teachers leaving the profession after a few years, which is what has happened in England?

acequion · 06-10-2014 11:24pm

endakenny wrote: »

What I meant was: could the JCSA lead to younger teachers leaving the profession after a few years, which is what has happened in England?

If they have any sense,yes!

rainbowtrout · 06-10-2014 11:50pm

acequion wrote: »

The trouble is that people can't go until they're ready financially. I'm in my early fifties and I have to hang in there until at least 60 as I just cannot afford to retire before that. It's all well and good saying people should quit if they're sick of it,but what are such people supposed to do? I've always enjoyed teaching and been good at it,but I really hate the way it's going and am obviously very concerned and apprehensive about the next ten years.

No consideration whatsoever has been given to teachers,either the young or the not so young.It's a sink or swim environment and I would strongly discourage young people from entering this rat race. Sad but true.:(

I would say that's true to a large extent. Anyone over 50 that can't afford to go won't go, because starting off in a new job will more than likely mean a massive pay cut, assuming the vast majority of over 50 teachers are permanent and in the job 20+ years.

It's hard to give up the security of any job, but particularly a permanent public sector job if you have a mortgage, kids, roots in a certain part of the country.

rainbowtrout · 06-10-2014 11:56pm

endakenny wrote: »

What I meant was: could the JCSA lead to younger teachers leaving the profession after a few years, which is what has happened in England?

Yes, but not just JCSA. A combination of starting on a much lower salary than teachers starting a few years ago. Not being able to get a full time job will also be a huge factor. Look at the number of threads on here every week about the jobs situation in teaching. They are either of the "I'm thinking of doing the dip, are there any jobs in teaching?" or "I've done the dip and can't get a job, give up or emigrate?" type.

I don't think any sane individual who has third level qualifications but can only scrabble together a few hours here and there, but becaue of the nature of teaching and timetabling can't make themselves available to do part time work elsewhere, will just decide to bail out. Low hours = low wage, no job security and a whole heap of working coming with JCSA if it gets pushed through doesn't make it an attractive prospect.

The thing is for young NQTs, the majority won't have major ties such as a mortgage, kids etc to make them stay in the job and they won't have paid enough into a pension to consider sticking it out for the long haul. If they don't have stable, full time permanent jobs to go to, there isn't a major incentive to stay in the profession in the long term.

endakenny · 07-10-2014 12:03am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes, but not just JCSA. A combination of starting on a much lower salary than teachers starting a few years ago. Not being able to get a full time job will also be a huge factor. Look at the number of threads on here every week about the jobs situation in teaching. They are either of the "I'm thinking of doing the dip, are there any jobs in teaching?" or "I've done the dip and can't get a job, give up or emigrate?" type.

I don't think any sane individual who has third level qualifications but can only scrabble together a few hours here and there, but becaue of the nature of teaching and timetabling can't make themselves available to do part time work elsewhere, will just decide to bail out. Low hours = low wage, no job security and a whole heap of working coming with JCSA if it gets pushed through doesn't make it an attractive prospect.

The thing is for young NQTs, the majority won't have major ties such as a mortgage, kids etc to make them stay in the job and they won't have paid enough into a pension to consider sticking it out for the long haul. If they don't have stable, full time permanent jobs to go to, there isn't a major incentive to stay in the profession in the long term.

If or when difficulty in teacher recruitment arises, how do you think the government will respond? Another benchmarking process?!

rainbowtrout · 07-10-2014 12:21am

endakenny wrote: »

If or when difficulty in teacher recruitment arises, how do you think the government will respond? Another benchmarking process?!

No idea. It won't happen overnight. The arse fell out of the economy 6 years ago and the economy had been slowing down for at least a year before that. I think you could go back and do a search of boards threads from 2008 and you'd still find threads saying 'just qualified, can't get a job'. It hasn't stopped people applying for teacher training or the PME.

I have no idea what the numbers are like applying for teaching jobs, or what the knock on effect of the two year PME will be but I don't see it slowing down overnight. Teachers who are in it long term will stay out of necessity. Teachers who are in it not so long (say less than 10 years, but have a CID) won't bail out just yet. It will take a few years for the JCSA to take full effect. I think it's supposed to be rolled out over 7 years. So depending on teachers subject combinations, some teachers may not feel the full effects of JSCA for 5-6 years yet. The first year for examination is 2017 for English.

Students going into college now to do a 3-4 year teacher training degree or those currently in college thinking of doing the dip in the next couple of year have no experience of this. Also if they enter the profession with JCSA in place they will have nothing to compare it to, they won't have worked in the current system. But it doesn't mean they'll stay in it once they get there. A lot of that will come down to job prospects initially and then the workload I suspect.

I remember doing my teaching practice and being sick to the back teeth of lugging my teaching practice folder around with me and writing lesson plans for every lesson, and schemes of work, and post lesson appraisals etc, and teachers in those schools commenting 'I haven't written a lesson plan since the dip 20 years ago'. For NQTs who generate this mountain of paperwork on teaching practice, for a while starting off in a new school it will just be more of the same. Can it be kept up in the long term? - based on the UK, probably not.

It's just my personal opinion, but I would say that we will only begin to see the major fallout of JCSA in about 10 years time, with teachers leaving the profession because of poor prospects and huge workload.

endakenny · 07-10-2014 5:01pm

ASTI has voted in favour of including strikes as part of industrial action.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1007/650696-asti-junior-cycle/

endakenny · 07-10-2014 6:16pm

Only 44% of members voted.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-threatens-one-day-strike-over-junior-cycle-reforms-1.1954871

MrJones1973 · 11-10-2014 9:07am

The turnout is disappointing but in a national election you hardly touch 64% and a vote is a vote. No matter how low-it stands.

endakenny · 11-11-2014 6:30pm

Talks have broken down.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1111/658522-teacher-talks/

man_no_plan · 11-11-2014 8:51pm

I'm not sure for how long though. I think this is a bit of Who's dick is biggest from everyone.

(irishtimes.com/news/education/junior-cycle-reform-talks-collapse-despite-compromise-offer-1.1996687) link there cant post one. According to the times the offer of state exams for 60% is on the table with 40% project work.

This was more or less the ncca proposal from 2011 as far as I can remember.

Now we do need posts to run the assessment and grading. We do need training and moderation, I would like to see payment but im not sure if this is even being mentions by the unions? But the new jc is coming I think whether we like it or not. ?

Maybe the time is right to look for a marking fee for the 40% project.

I'm a bit disappointed that the talks broke down in the first day though. I wonder what would the majority of teachers be happy with?

Would the 60% external marking and state cert be enough?

evolving_doors · 11-11-2014 9:23pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

I'm not sure for how long though. I think this is a bit of Who's dick is biggest from everyone.

(irishtimes.com/news/education/junior-cycle-reform-talks-collapse-despite-compromise-offer-1.1996687) link there cant post one. According to the times the offer of state exams for 60% is on the table with 40% project work.

This was more or less the ncca proposal from 2011 as far as I can remember.

Now we do need posts to run the assessment and grading. We do need training and moderation, I would like to see payment but im not sure if this is even being mentions by the unions? But the new jc is coming I think whether we like it or not. ?

Maybe the time is right to look for a marking fee for the 40% project.

I'm a bit disappointed that the talks broke down in the first day though. I wonder what would the majority of teachers be happy with?

Would the 60% external marking and state cert be enough?

For me it's either a principle or its not... once you start horse trading then the principle is lost... so then 'folks who know better' will say 'shur why dont the teachers correct the whole lot its only the flippin junior cert'...

Then its the whole 'monitoring of individual student targets/outcomes/key skills'.... bring on the paperwork (to be done at home in our own time I presume!) .

acequion · 12-11-2014 6:04pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

I'm not sure for how long though. I think this is a bit of Who's dick is biggest from everyone.

(irishtimes.com/news/education/junior-cycle-reform-talks-collapse-despite-compromise-offer-1.1996687) link there cant post one. According to the times the offer of state exams for 60% is on the table with 40% project work.

This was more or less the ncca proposal from 2011 as far as I can remember.

Now we do need posts to run the assessment and grading. We do need training and moderation, I would like to see payment but im not sure if this is even being mentions by the unions? But the new jc is coming I think whether we like it or not. ?

Maybe the time is right to look for a marking fee for the 40% project.

I'm a bit disappointed that the talks broke down in the first day though. I wonder what would the majority of teachers be happy with?

Would the 60% external marking and state cert be enough?

Why do you think the new JC is so inevitable? Look at it this way. The new JCSA,as they call it,is supposed to be up and running already in English for the present first years.Yet in most schools,English classes are no different to last year,same course,same book. The "phasing in" is supposed to continue with science next year,yet no body is attending any in services because of the union ban. In fact, nobody is even talking about it,it's business as usual in most schools. Even parents have stopped asking about it. We had our open day last Saturday and there wasn't as much as one question about the fabled JCSA. Even the DES are already trying to dilute Ruari's great plan by rowing back on the 100% school assessment.

So,from where I'm standing,it looks far from inevitable. If teachers would only grow a pair this time and if the union could be trusted to actually represent their members,for once,I would actually be optimistic that we could face down the Government on this one.

Inspector Coptoor · 12-11-2014 7:24pm

We should join the water strike in Dec 10th.

Shut the whole city down.

evolving_doors · 12-11-2014 7:46pm

I heard that because Jan has a new offer on the table we should have to ballot for strike again ! Is that usually the procedure?

Anyhow.. teachers dont need to grow a pair.... they just need to sit up straight and take an interest...

And vote.

MOD NOTE:

Merged Thread with old ASTI Ballot thread.

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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1