Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip · 30-01-2014 1:02am

eastwest wrote: »

Afaik the so-called WRC is classified as a siding as far north as Claremorris only. After that it is disused, I believe.
I'm open to correction, if anyone has more detail.

You are dead right I have a feeling the official definition is not disused but closed, maybe irish rail could give us the actual definition.:D

eastwest · 30-01-2014 9:32am

westtip wrote: »

This is why councillors oppose the greenway - too many of their mates would have to get off the land they are trespassing on, and they will all be looking for compensation as if it is a given right to get compensation for stealing what does not belong to you. West on Track are right about one thing - this route is a huge national asset but they never ever mention the encroachment on it - all they do is focus on trying to stop the one positive suggestion there is (the greenway) to protect the route forever in the unlikely event their toy train is ever given permission to come back.

Politicians never mention encroachment either; for 'squatters', read 'voters'.
There's an unholy alliance between politicians, land grabbers and WOT. They all feed off each other, all knowing that the railway isn't coming and all facing down the common enemy of sustainable tourism development that must be opposed at all costs for no other reason than that it proves them all wrong.

Dolani · 30-01-2014 11:57am

westtip wrote: »

dolani if you can post up a few photos of the line in your area, Thanks.

:rolleyes:
I'm out of the country for the moment. I hope to walk the whole line over four days sometime in May
Day one Claremorris to Kiltimagh
Day two Kiltimagh to Swinford
Day three Swinford to Tubbercurry
Day four Tubbercurry to Colooney.
Am assuming that, since the route remains in the ownership of CIE, I should only have difficulty with regard to trespass from an employee of that organisation. Perhaps I'm only being naive?
I have to do it in May because in June I fly to San Francisco to cycle from there to Boston on a solo, unsupported trip of a lifetime!!

corktina · 30-01-2014 1:06pm

Trespass is a civil matter iirc

mayo.mick · 30-01-2014 1:10pm

Dolani wrote: »

:rolleyes:
I'm out of the country for the moment. I hope to walk the whole line over four days sometime in May
Day one Claremorris to Kiltimagh
Day two Kiltimagh to Swinford
Day three Swinford to Tubbercurry
Day four Tubbercurry to Colooney.
Am assuming that, since the route remains in the ownership of CIE, I should only have difficulty with regard to trespass from an employee of that organisation. Perhaps I'm only being naive?
I have to do it in May because in June I fly to San Francisco to cycle from there to Boston on a solo, unsupported trip of a lifetime!!

I think it might take you a bit longer than 4 days to walk it. You might also want to bring a chainsaw and wire cutters with you!

sonnyblack · 30-01-2014 1:36pm

Dolani wrote: »

:rolleyes:
I'm out of the country for the moment. I hope to walk the whole line over four days sometime in May
Day one Claremorris to Kiltimagh
Day two Kiltimagh to Swinford
Day three Swinford to Tubbercurry
Day four Tubbercurry to Colooney.
Am assuming that, since the route remains in the ownership of CIE, I should only have difficulty with regard to trespass from an employee of that organisation. Perhaps I'm only being naive?
I have to do it in May because in June I fly to San Francisco to cycle from there to Boston on a solo, unsupported trip of a lifetime!!

Westip will be on the high nelly and will meet you in collooney with an energy drink.:)

Losty Dublin · 30-01-2014 2:32pm

corktina wrote: »

Trespass is a civil matter iirc

Trespass on a railway is a specific criminal offence under the 2005 act. In all honesty but there will be little to worry about as the chances of being stopped are all but nil. If it happens that there are staff or a Garda around, being told to feck off is the most that would happen bar at Claremorris and Colloney.

That said, the state of the line to walk on from a H+S standing will range from poor and impassable at times. You'd need to allow 2 miles per hour at best as railways are not easy to walk on at the best of times and a lot less if there is vegetation to get through.

corktina · 30-01-2014 3:09pm

It's not a railway, it's an ex-railway. It has ceased to be a railway decades ago. It is nailed to it's perch....

westtip · 31-01-2014 11:01am

Dolani wrote: »

:rolleyes:
I'm out of the country for the moment. I hope to walk the whole line over four days sometime in May
Day one Claremorris to Kiltimagh
Day two Kiltimagh to Swinford
Day three Swinford to Tubbercurry
Day four Tubbercurry to Colooney.
Am assuming that, since the route remains in the ownership of CIE, I should only have difficulty with regard to trespass from an employee of that organisation. Perhaps I'm only being naive?
I have to do it in May because in June I fly to San Francisco to cycle from there to Boston on a solo, unsupported trip of a lifetime!!

don't forget your chainsaw and wire cutters you will need them take a look at this report we compiled over two years ago - its not got any better!

Markcheese · 31-01-2014 12:47pm

I assume since it's decades since IE did anything to the line that the adverse possession ship has well and truely sailed ...
By the way who has the burden of proof , do IE have to prove that they have used or maintained the ground within allotted time or that they've been unlawfully prevented from acess or use...
Or does the squatter have to prove that they've had x amount of uninterrupted use of the land .. Either way expensive for Iegaly... Might it be cheaper to just compulsory purchase order all disputed sections IF anybody actually wanted it back ...

freyners · 31-01-2014 11:15pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I assume since it's decades since IE did anything to the line that the adverse possession ship has well and truely sailed ...
By the way who has the burden of proof , do IE have to prove that they have used or maintained the ground within allotted time or that they've been unlawfully prevented from acess or use...
Or does the squatter have to prove that they've had x amount of uninterrupted use of the land .. Either way expensive for Iegaly... Might it be cheaper to just compulsory purchase order all disputed sections IF anybody actually wanted it back ...

For State land its a 30 year possession needed to claiming squatting rights afaik. I know its IE but even they would surely have done something in that timeframe

Markcheese · 01-02-2014 8:11am

freyners wrote: »

For State land its a 30 year possession needed to claiming squatting rights afaik. I know its IE but even they would surely have done something in that timeframe

But is it classed as state land since ie is a commercial (ha) semi-state company .. And when was the last time they did anything with the length of the line ??
30 years is bringing you back to the mid 80's ... If IE tried to send something (hy-mac or bull dozer) down now,then I assume they'd be liable for any damage done to fences, gardens ect that have been built on the track ...
Also to prove ownership and exclude IE from the land do any new possessors/squatters have to go through the courts or can they simply deny access to IE and let IE go to the courts to recover the Line ? ( that they don't want anyway)

Dolani · 01-02-2014 9:59am

westtip wrote: »

don't forget your chainsaw and wire cutters you will need them take a look at this report we compiled over two years ago - its not got any better!

Thanks for the survey. Doesn't appear to be as "blocked" as I would have expected. I don't foresee having to make major detours. I suppose I like the thought of having to blaze a trail. If I make the trip, I'll post my notes on the route.

eastwest · 01-02-2014 11:25am

Dolani wrote: »

Thanks for the survey. Doesn't appear to be as "blocked" as I would have expected. I don't foresee having to make major detours. I suppose I like the thought of having to blaze a trail. If I make the trip, I'll post my notes on the route.

Lots of barbed wire and electric fences, as well as cattle, horses, round bales, slurry, piles of rubble etc. Also plenty of briars and nettles, so wear heavy trousers and allow time to beat your way through some of the more overgrown bits. You'll be doing well to manage two miles an hour, and you may have to divert here and there, so bring OS maps.
Good luck with it; look forward to seeing the pics.

mayo.mick · 01-02-2014 2:34pm

Dolani wrote: »

Thanks for the survey. Doesn't appear to be as "blocked" as I would have expected. I don't foresee having to make major detours. I suppose I like the thought of having to blaze a trail. If I make the trip, I'll post my notes on the route.

Keep us updated on your travels and post plenty of photos. If we don't hear from you we'll send out a search party. :pac:

westtip · 01-02-2014 8:09pm

Dolani wrote: »

Thanks for the survey. Doesn't appear to be as "blocked" as I would have expected. I don't foresee having to make major detours. I suppose I like the thought of having to blaze a trail. If I make the trip, I'll post my notes on the route.

That survey was only on a short stretch of the line, mainly up and around the section between collooney and Coolaney, the end up near collooney is virtually impassable at the moment without a JCB. Re last time anything was done on this line by the state/IE. O'Cuiv did pay for some weedkilling and fencing to re-define the route in and around 2006, that was the last state activity on the route. Sligo and Mayo coco of course have played their part - by granting planning permission for houses and house extensions within a spit of the railway line! These are the same councils who are blocking the route being used as a greenway to protect the route in perpetuity, the phrase a**se from their elbow comes to mind.

Markcheese · 01-02-2014 10:57pm

So 06 is the last date that the entire (or most) of the Route was used /enjoyed by IE.. That makes the greenway(or rail, ahem or velo thingy) a lot more plausible ... So IR could rent the whole cleared line (for a peppercorn rent ) to a greenway group .. With or with out the county council... If the right political pressure was put on IR ... How many government TDs in that constituency ..and enda too ...forget the monkeys even with the local elections coming up ... Go for the organ grinder... But you'll need to move quick ...

westtip · 01-02-2014 11:22pm

Markcheese wrote: »

So 06 is the last date that the entire (or most) of the Route was used /enjoyed by IE.. That makes the greenway(or rail, ahem or velo thingy) a lot more plausible ... So IR could rent the whole cleared line (for a peppercorn rent ) to a greenway group .. With or with out the county council... If the right political pressure was put on IR ... How many government TDs in that constituency ..and enda too ...forget the monkeys even with the local elections coming up ... Go for the organ grinder... But you'll need to move quick ...

"Used" is not quite the right term - so apologies if that has mislead you, just in case anyone had visions of being used as in actual trains going up an down the track, let me clarify that I meant a team of guys in orange jackets walked up and down the line with weedkiller spray and a few chain saws to cut down one or two small trees growing through the sleepers. I suppose in terms of ownership and usage it was a bit like a dog walking up and down his patch and p**sing on the lamposts/trees to mark out territory. In one or two places they tried to define the boundaries of the route with some posts and barbed wire; Re political pressure - it is a being applied at every level, the more senior level politicians - those at central government level have given a far more sympathetic hearing. The men in orange workmen jackets was a bit of a gesture of support from O'Cuiv who a the time supported the WRC idea.

eastwest · 02-02-2014 12:06am

Markcheese wrote: »

So 06 is the last date that the entire (or most) of the Route was used /enjoyed by IE.. That makes the greenway(or rail, ahem or velo thingy) a lot more plausible ... So IR could rent the whole cleared line (for a peppercorn rent ) to a greenway group .. With or with out the county council... If the right political pressure was put on IR ... How many government TDs in that constituency ..and enda too ...forget the monkeys even with the local elections coming up ... Go for the organ grinder... But you'll need to move quick ...

Leaving aside the pedalo stunt that appears to have been introduced purely to somehow con the minister into restoring a couple of miles of the track, the reality is that national politicians in the north west will fence-sit for as long as they can. That way, they can harvest votes from both the pro-tourism lobby and the anoraks.
An effective greenway campaign will have to dislodge them from their comfortable perch on the fence. How they'll do that I'm not quite sure, but it must be an easier PR job than that which faces WOT, whose position seems increasingly untenable.

Grandeeod · 02-02-2014 12:35am

As early as April 2004 this scam was pointed out to all and sundry by other individuals. I believe in the term "credit where credit is due". Unfortunately said individuals have disappeared and who could blame them! Even as far back as 2004 and thats 10 years ago now, the line was blocked and land grabbed. CC's had granted amazingly inept planning permissions for homes along the line and then had the audacity to claim they supported its reopening. The same individuals pointed out a similar scenario on the proposed Navan line reopening. Sewer pipes, Motorway junctions and link roads, making any economic case redundant. Railways and politicians do not go together!

Markcheese · 02-02-2014 10:41am

If i've heard right sending a couple of lads down the line with strimmers is all it takes to start the clock again on adverse possession... The squatter would have to prove x number of years exclusive possession...starting from when IR last used/ maintained or possibly just traveled the track !! That's not to say that IR maintained or cleared all the associated yards /sidings or buildings along the line, not that would stop a greenway

Also planning is a bit tough luck. Just cos I get planning for something doesn't make the ground it's on mine... Or give me rights to that ground ...

Markcheese · 02-02-2014 11:38am

If the line was cleared , the track lifted and recycled and all the vegetation , old sleepers and top layer of earth pushed to one side ,would the old ballast compacted be a suitable track ?? Or would you have to spread a layer of 804 or something on the top ... Any idea how much per km this would cost ...
Do you IE have crews doing little else that could tip away at it .. because of a lack of capital projects .. (Or was all that done by contractors ..
I mean a cleared line could be for anything , greenway , velorail or a ..reestablished WRC , ... When the money comes through ...

eastwest · 02-02-2014 12:45pm

Markcheese wrote: »

If the line was cleared , the track lifted and recycled and all the vegetation , old sleepers and top layer of earth pushed to one side ,would the old ballast compacted be a suitable track ?? Or would you have to spread a layer of 804 or something on the top ... Any idea how much per km this would cost ...
Do you IE have crews doing little else that could tip away at it .. because of a lack of capital projects .. (Or was all that done by contractors ..
I mean a cleared line could be for anything , greenway , velorail or a ..reestablished WRC , ... When the money comes through ...

The base would be suitable but would need blinding with about 3" of 804 plus another inch of rolled grit.
Mayo county council has a figure of €120k/km for a grit trail, but some of the greenway campaigners have apparently provided the minister with quotes from suitable companies that suggest a much lower figure of €20k/km. Also i'm told that the €20k figure was what the first twenty miles of the GST cost in Limerick, so it seems realistic.
County councils tend to load their own overheads on to projects that are externally funded, to help with managing their own budgets. Also, projects like the GWG were 'flagship' projects and designers went a bit mad with curvy bridges etc. I'm also told that a lot of work was done for farmers who were giving permissive access, something that wouldn't apply in the case if the SMG where the land is publicly owned.
So, in short, 20k/km plus a bit for signage and road crossing/bollarding would seem realistic. Or to put it another way, the cost of providing a pedalo business for one private individual using state funds would give us a significant piece of national infrastructure if applied to the SMG.

westtip · 03-02-2014 9:47am

eastwest wrote: »

The base would be suitable but would need blinding with about 3" of 804 plus another inch of rolled grit.
Mayo county council has a figure of €120k/km for a grit trail, but some of the greenway campaigners have apparently provided the minister with quotes from suitable companies that suggest a much lower figure of €20k/km. Also i'm told that the €20k figure was what the first twenty miles of the GST cost in Limerick, so it seems realistic.
County councils tend to load their own overheads on to projects that are externally funded, to help with managing their own budgets. Also, projects like the GWG were 'flagship' projects and designers went a bit mad with curvy bridges etc. I'm also told that a lot of work was done for farmers who were giving permissive access, something that wouldn't apply in the case if the SMG where the land is publicly owned.
So, in short, 20k/km plus a bit for signage and road crossing/bollarding would seem realistic. Or to put it another way, the cost of providing a pedalo business for one private individual using state funds would give us a significant piece of national infrastructure if applied to the SMG.

Wow even with a 50% contingency built in to take it up to €30k a km that would be 25% of the price the council consider a benchmark price. This project should be tendered from central government and managed centrally, the less the local politicians have their finger in the pie the less it will cost.. or so it seems reasonable to assume.....

eastwest · 03-02-2014 11:09am

westtip wrote: »

Wow even with a 50% contingency built in to take it up to €30k a km that would be 25% of the price the council consider a benchmark price. This project should be tendered from central government and managed centrally, the less the local politicians have their finger in the pie the less it will cost.. or so it seems reasonable to assume.....

Ah now, sure that wouldn't do at all.
Are you suggesting reforming the way that councils do business? The next thing that would happen would be that all their spending would be tendered centrally, and what would happen then?
Wouldn't work. How would they give business to families of councillors, or to friends of the county managers?
All your proposal would do would be to save millions for the taxpayers, what a quaint notion.
Lmfao!

Markcheese · 03-02-2014 11:43am

Are the councils even necessary for this project... Could it be done between local groups, CIE and central government...doesn't need planning or gold plating , the biggest issue would or could be bridges.
Who'd be responsible for fencing the line ?? Presume it'd be the line..
Drama then would be insurance and maintenance ...

westtip · 03-02-2014 11:45am

Markcheese wrote: »

Are the councils even necessary for this project... .

eastwest · 03-02-2014 12:15pm

westtip wrote: »

Properly constituted councils with real powers and strict accountability would be great, but that vision is a long way off, and part of another debate altogether.
In this instance there's no doubt that the county councils that are part of the inter-county railway committee are holding back development and missing out on hundreds of new jobs, as well as the chance to support existing jobs in the north west. A clear case of local government gone absolutely stark raving mad, and no sign of an end in sight anytime soon.
Except maybe in may?

westtip · 07-02-2014 10:10am

Interesting story here in this weeks mayo advertiser about how the Mayo greenway has been chosen for an arts project - the interesting point is this is a project funded by the European Commission bringing more tourism euros into the west - about projects that particularly focus on....how old railway lines can be used productively as social amenities...Now that's a novel idea!

http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/launch.aspx?pbid=4d7e191c-4960-4c44-a8d2-7c892caae409

jmlfc · 10-02-2014 11:10am

Dolani wrote: »

Thanks for the survey. Doesn't appear to be as "blocked" as I would have expected. I don't foresee having to make major detours. I suppose I like the thought of having to blaze a trail. If I make the trip, I'll post my notes on the route.

Look forward to the pics.
Coolaney to collooney is well over grown now, horses, trees, bushes, weeds, you'd need a train with you to carry the tools to clear as you go forward..

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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