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150+ killings by British soldiers in NI never fully investigated

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13

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    #62
    Livvie
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Livvie


    wes wrote: »
    aDeener wrote: »
    hold on a second, how the fuck is that understandable? would it be understandable if there were marches in london after the 2006 al-queda bombings saying "sand n**gers out" or some such racial slur against muslims?? you cant smear an entire group of people over the actions of a militant section

    It would be understandable to a degree I think, if not justified.

    Fear has a huge part to play in public opinion.

    Some believe the garbage trotted out by Bush and swallowed by Blair, and they are fearful of terrorism, so believe that the troops are doing an essential job in the Middle East.

    Others don't believe a word of it, and think we're more at risk from Muslim extremists than we ever were before 9/11, and their fear is probably even greater.

    Likewise when IRA terrorism was at its peak, the public were scared, hence marches where people shouted racist stuff about the Irish. It was down to fear - and ignorance.

    There needs to be education. The historic facts speak for themselves and no fair minded person could ignore them. But the facts are too often obliterated or disguised by one sided rhetoric.


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    #63
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    The problem with these inquiries is up north they're politicised. Whataboutery is brought into it every time. Have a glance at loyalist forums, stuff there puts the anti-republican crowd here in the shade.

    I think there will be outrage if there's further investigations into BA massacres unless its seen something is also being done for the Protestant community.

    I think perhaps an inquiry should be done about the Irish government funding/arming the republican groups in the north, as there's a lot of suspicion about that. Would probably mean investigations into the likes of Ballymurphy would get less objection.


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    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gurramok wrote: »

    On the subject of bygones, do you oppose the HET?
    No actually I don't if it's working under the radar.
    What I oppose is the Wah wah wah...Look at me approach to highlighting the whole disaster that was the troubles.
    Like I said,it's better and more positive to move on and learn from it.


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    #65
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thats lunacy in my view and unpopular.
    As I said earlier,believer in pragmatism that I am,such nit picking is a source of unsettlement to an uneasy peace in a protracted problem and theres going to be no political will to go down that road sorry.

    I am going to have to completely disagree. Ignoring what happened is imho, a pretty bad idea. This stuff doesn't just go away, and it is better to deal with in a calm and mature manner. If things have truly changed, then investigating these killing properly will not be a problem, and I think justice for the victims and there families is very important to any peace process, and ignoring it a bad idea. What you describe isn't moving on, it brushing it under the carpet, and hoping it doesn't come up again, and that is just silly imho.


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    #66
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No actually I don't if it's working under the radar.
    What I oppose is the Wah wah wah...Look at me approach to highlighting the whole disaster that was the troubles.
    Like I said,it's better and more positive to move on and learn from it.

    The HET is digging up the past, thats contradictory to your approach of lets move on.
    I reckon everyone should have a look at Suttons index of deaths. Gruesome yes but gives you an idea of what happened then. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/

    Cross tabulation shows 363 killings by British security forces, of which 187 are defined as civilian, the rest been mainly Republican paramilitary victims(armed and unarmed).

    Specific period of multiple state killings by the British army of civilians without any admittance of wrongdoing(yes there were IRA killings too not to be unbalanced :)) are in July 1970, Aug 1971 and '72 including where Protestants also were killed by the army. Also this continued right through the 70s, 80's and 90's to a lesser degree.

    These 2 stick out due to their extreme ages which speak volumes on the army's behaviour.

    Patrick Donaghy (86) Catholic
    Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
    Shot at the window of his flat, Divis Tower, Divis Flats, Belfast

    Francis Rowntree (11) Catholic
    Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
    Shot by rubber bullet, Divis Flats, Belfast


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    #67
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Lance Bombardier Steven Ristorick, shot by sniper, aged around 21.


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    #68
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    The problem with these inquiries is up north they're politicised. Whataboutery is brought into it every time. Have a glance at loyalist forums, stuff there puts the anti-republican crowd here in the shade.

    I think there will be outrage if there's further investigations into BA massacres unless its seen something is also being done for the Protestant community.

    I think perhaps an inquiry should be done about the Irish government funding/arming the republican groups in the north, as there's a lot of suspicion about that. Would probably mean investigations into the likes of Ballymurphy would get less objection.

    Who are these anti -republican crowd to whom you refer?

    The language in paragraph two is a tad over the top wouldn't you think?


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gurramok wrote: »
    These 2 stick out due to their extreme ages which speak volumes on the army's behaviour.

    Patrick Donaghy (86) Catholic
    Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
    Shot at the window of his flat, Divis Tower, Divis Flats, Belfast

    Francis Rowntree (11) Catholic
    Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
    Shot by rubber bullet, Divis Flats, Belfast
    You know what you could do.
    You could take a leaf out of Gerry Adam's stock reply to unionists who recite victims off like you just did there.I remember him often saying that we could all exchange victim lists.

    So move on and let the families take due process if they want to or let them contact the historical enquiries team.
    Theres no need to be raising it up for others to lift their own sectarian banner in response to it.
    Quietly quietly move on.

    I've no0 interest in reading anymore of this,I won't be reading your reply.I'll leave you to the people who don't want to move on and Minds that think alike etc.


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    #70
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've no0 interest in reading anymore of this,I won't be reading your reply.I'll leave you to the people who don't want to move on and Minds that think alike etc.

    Ignoring what happened isn't moving on. Moving on it accepting what happened and either having prosecutions of some kind, or a truth and reconciliation process. Letting this kind of stuff fester is a terrible idea, better to deal with it imho.


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    #71
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Lance Bombardier Steven Ristorick, shot by sniper, aged around 21.

    Shot by the British Army? No, you're wrong again.

    Still waiting for your answer to the below:
    gurramok wrote: »
    Yes, do you have the same interest in the topic?

    What is your view, should these killings(as per topic) be investigated?
    Deleted User wrote:
    You know what you could do.
    You could take a leaf out of Gerry Adam's stock reply to unionists who recite victims off like you just did there.I remember him often saying that we could all exchange victim lists.

    So move on and let the families take due process if they want to or let them contact the historical enquiries team.
    Theres no need to be raising it up for others to lift their own sectarian banner in response to it.
    Quietly quietly move on.

    I've no0 interest in reading anymore of this,I won't be reading your reply.I'll leave you to the people who don't want to move on and Minds that think alike etc.

    Why won't you look at the Sutton link? Denial? Don't care? What is it?

    The victim list of the Unionists have had their cases investigated. The victim list of the Nationalist community at the hands of the British army have not been investigated.


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    #72
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Here’s an idea. Perhaps Northern Ireland should recognise that it will not be healthy for future generations if those that did grievous wrong during the troubles were allowed go unpunished or only partially punished. Let’s face it, the Irish don’t quickly (or slowly!) forget past transgressions against them.

    And I mean all of those that did wrong. Investigate every death caused by a British soldier or police officer. But also, roll back the release of paramilitaries. Why should the likes of Mad dog Adair or Michael Stone (yes I know) or republican “volunteers” who sent defenders of this state like Jerry McCabe to an early grave, be excused from paying their full debt to society?

    Yes, it would be a touch unethical to renege on a deal. But nothing like as unethical such a sordid deal was in the first place, whatever about its pragmatic necessity. And I don’t think there’s a real risk of a large-scale return to violence if this were done. After all, republicans insist that they are now fully committed to democracy.


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    #73
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    The South African System of truth and reconciliation had the right idea.

    The country needed to move on out of a dark place and to investigate EVERY injustice on all sides would be counter productive and just not allow the wounds to heal.

    Certain people with sincerely held but misguided idealism about NI might take a leaf out of South Africa's book.


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    #74
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    The South African System of truth and reconciliation had the right idea.

    The country needed to move on out of a dark place and to investigate EVERY injustice on all sides would be counter productive and just not allow the wounds to heal.

    Certain people with sincerely held but misguided idealism about NI might take a leaf out of South Africa's book.

    A SA style commission will expose unhealthy wrongdoing by the BA which will be uncomfortable with the British public. Will this be allowed is the big question.

    So you might have finally answered my question after 69 posts later? An emphatic no is it?
    "What is your view, should these killings(as per topic) be investigated?"

    How is it counter productive, wounds ain't healing at the moment by those whose cases were never even investigated by the RUC.


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    #75
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    gurramok wrote: »
    Shot by the British Army? No, you're wrong again.

    Still waiting for your answer to the below:




    Why won't you look at the Sutton link? Denial? Don't care? What is it?

    The victim list of the Unionists have had their cases investigated. The victim list of the Nationalist community at the hands of the British army have not been investigated.

    If all the unionists cases have been investigated as you claim then why do we need the HET moreover can you actully prove that all these unionists cases have investigated?


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    #76
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    junder wrote: »
    If all the unionists cases have been investigated as you claim then why do we need the HET moreover can you actully prove that all these unionists cases have investigated?

    HET is cold case mostly for victims of paramilitary violence(Unionist and Nationalist) where their cases which had been investigated by the RUC and were not solved will be reviewed.

    The victims of BA violence never had their cases investigated by the RUC in the first place which means a first police investigation.
    http://www.reference.com/browse/Historical_Enquiries_Team

    There is no procedure and has never been a procedure in place for the RUC/PSNI to NOT investigate Unionist victims of paramilitary violence, thats just pathetic saying there is none.

    Its amazing how intelligent people cannot spot the difference.


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    #77
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    gurramok wrote: »
    A SA style commission will expose unhealthy wrongdoing by the BA which will be uncomfortable with the British public. Will this be allowed is the big question.

    So you might have finally answered my question after 69 posts later? An emphatic no is it?
    "What is your view, should these killings(as per topic) be investigated?"

    How is it counter productive, wounds ain't healing at the moment by those whose cases were never even investigated by the RUC.

    Unhealthy wrong doings on all sides my friend.

    you seem to think that everything is one sided and that all the wrongs are on one side.
    There is no point in investigating anything unless you investigate EVERYTHING

    A defender of the state Jerry McCabe was murdered in cold blood in Adare, the murderers are walking free.

    Take your case to that tolerant woman Mrs Mccabe and see what her reaction is, then carry on with your one sided view on what is justice and what is not.

    Thank god most of us have a less polarised and sensible view on things.

    lance that boil and enjoy your life.


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    #78
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Unhealthy wrong doings on all sides my friend.

    you seem to think that everything is one sided and that all the wrongs are on one side.
    There is no point in investigating anything unless you investigate EVERYTHING.
    You sir, make no sense.

    In your world view apparently NONE of the Republican or Loyalist violence should have ever been investigated, since that would be quid pro quo as HMG forces violence has went un-investigated.


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    #79
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Unhealthy wrong doings on all sides my friend.

    you seem to think that everything is one sided and that all the wrongs are on one side.
    There is no point in investigating anything unless you investigate EVERYTHING

    A defender of the state Jerry McCabe was murdered in cold blood in Adare, the murderers are walking free.

    Take your case to that tolerant woman Mrs Mccabe and see what her reaction is, then carry on with your one sided view on what is justice and what is not.

    Thank god most of us have a less polarised and sensible view on things.

    lance that boil and enjoy your life.

    What a warped post. Where did I say there were wrongs on just one side? FFS.

    Those killers of innocent unarmed victims by British soldiers never served a day in jail and have been walking free all their life.

    Whats that got to do with a certain widow is beyond belief. Yes we certainly do see your one sided view, you do not care about unarmed innocent people which included kids and the elderly murdered by British soldiers.


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    #80
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    gurramok wrote: »
    What a warped post. Where did I say there were wrongs on just one side? FFS.

    Those killers of innocent unarmed victims by British soldiers never served a day in jail and have been walking free all their life.

    Whats that got to do with a certain widow is beyond belief. Yes we certainly do see your one sided view, you do not care about unarmed innocent people which included kids and the elderly murdered by British soldiers.

    Where did I say that, buddy.?

    what I DID say is that if you want to go after the BA, then you got to after everyone involved in the 30 years of hate and turbulence.

    No point in churning out rhetoric which is hackneyed in the extreme and flogged to death.

    Jerry mcCabe turned up for work one fine summer's day, just like today maybe. A father and a husband.

    At around 0900 in Adare, thugs intent on robbing a PO gunned him down and wounded Ben.

    These thugs are walking free and escorted off the premises by one of our 'elected representatives'

    Well, that punter doesn't represent me buddy, and never will.


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    #81
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Now you're just trolling FlutteringBantam.

    It's been pointed out to you already that those Republican and Loyalist murders have already been investigated.
    If new evidence surfaces regarding those murders prosecutions can still occur.

    This is not the same thing with murders commited by HMG's forces.
    They have not been investigated.

    Jerry McCabe's murder in this thread is totally off-topic.
    Why not also ask how any rape victim feels about their attacker getting a suspended sentence? Totally moot to this discussion.
    Besides, Jerry McCabe's murder was investigated.

    Can you spot the difference?
    Murders that were investigated.
    Murders that were not investigated.


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    #82
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    I am not trolling.

    In any reasonable discussion context and circumstance come into the equation.

    What you seem to want is a one sided discussion about certain aspects of NI history without any reference to to what was going on, context, or the circumstances prevailing at the time.

    If that's what you want , fair enough, but that is not a discussion.

    let me know and I will leave the thread, as it's pointless to pursue that angle.


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    #83
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    gurramok wrote: »
    HET is cold case mostly for victims of paramilitary violence(Unionist and Nationalist) where their cases which had been investigated by the RUC and were not solved will be reviewed.

    The victims of BA violence never had their cases investigated by the RUC in the first place which means a first police investigation.
    http://www.reference.com/browse/Historical_Enquiries_Team

    There is no procedure and has never been a procedure in place for the RUC/PSNI to NOT investigate Unionist victims of paramilitary violence, thats just pathetic saying there is none.

    Its amazing how intelligent people cannot spot the difference.

    Wasn't bloody Sunday investigated by widgery? By your logic it should have been enough ,after all it was investigated. Fact is there are
    many murders that have happened in northern Ireland that have yet to have a satisfactory conclusion, many of these murders were carried out against the unionist community


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    #84
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Where did I say that, buddy.?

    what I DID say is that if you want to go after the BA, then you got to after everyone involved in the 30 years of hate and turbulence.

    Everyone was not investigated for their bad deeds. Paramilitaries were, state forces not.
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    What you seem to want is a one sided discussion about certain aspects of NI history without any reference to to what was going on, context, or the circumstances prevailing at the time.

    Topic is about killings of unarmed people of all ages by the British army. Start another thread about your other off topic stuff.

    Do you condemn the killings of 150+ innocent unarmed people (including an 86yr old & a 11 yr child) by the British Army?

    Yes or no? Answers like what about another murder in another jurisdiction does not count as an answer.
    junder wrote:
    Wasn't bloody Sunday investigated by widgery? By your logic it should have been enough ,after all it was investigated. Fact is there are
    many murders that have happened in northern Ireland that have yet to have a satisfactory conclusion, many of these murders were carried out against the unionist community

    No, Bloody Sunday was not investigated as it found that the people who died were gunmen and bombers.

    Yes, there were murders carried out against the Unionist community, fact is that they were investigated by the RUC then, killings by the British army were not.

    Do you condemn the killings of 150+ innocent unarmed people (including an 86yr old & a 11 yr child) by the British Army?


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    #85
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    junder wrote: »
    Wasn't bloody Sunday investigated by widgery? By your logic it should have been enough ,after all it was investigated.
    No it wasn't, it was a whitewash.
    It wasn't designed to arrive at the truth, it was just trying to clear HMG's soldiers of murder.

    You do realise that if HMG acted with integrity, if their soldiers didn't perjur themselves, if they didn't obstruct justice, if they didn't destroy evidence; Saville would never have had to happen.

    We could have closed the book on Bloody Sunday 30 years ago.

    What unionist murders are you referring that weren't investigated?


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    #86
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    If the North is ready and able to have a full and open investigation/T&R type process, why has no one been sentenced over the Omagh bombing?

    If the fear and intimidation has gone away then fine, but the big question for me is, has it?


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    #87
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    No it wasn't, it was a whitewash.
    It wasn't designed to arrive at the truth, it was just trying to clear HMG's soldiers of murder.

    You do realise that if HMG acted with integrity, if their soldiers didn't perjur themselves, if they didn't obstruct justice, if they didn't destroy evidence; Saville would never have had to happen.

    We could have closed the book on Bloody Sunday 30 years ago.

    What unionist murders are you referring that weren't investigated?

    All killings in northern Ireland have been investigated it's par for the course, these days a psni officer can not pull his gun out with out being investigated. Have these investigations been conducted satifactory well that's a different matter hence the HET. But if your really so blood thirsty give me a fewdays and I will see if I can get list of unionists/Protestants that were murdered and for which nobody was convicted


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    #88
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    junder wrote: »
    All killings in northern Ireland have been investigated it's par for the course,
    Actually no, the OP links to an article which makes the case that murders commited by HMG forces were not investigated.
    junder wrote: »
    these days a psni officer can not pull his gun out with out being investigated.
    Thanks to SF and the SDLP.


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    #89
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    If the North is ready and able to have a full and open investigation/T&R type process, why has no one been sentenced over the Omagh bombing?

    If the fear and intimidation has gone away then fine, but the big question for me is, has it?

    Omagh was fully investigated by the RUC/PSNI/Gardai and there were people charged for it of which the evidence was not sufficient enough for a conviction, that's whats the courts decided. I believe they are still investigating it which is a good thing. If you are suggesting intimidation of witnesses in this case, go to the Garda/PSNI with your evidence.

    As per topic, victims of British army killings between 1970 & 1973 were never investigated in the first place.


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    #90
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    junder wrote: »
    All killings in northern Ireland have been investigated it's par for the course

    Look, you are pedalling falsehoods here. Victims of the British army in the period in question never had their cases investigated by the RUC.

    And those victims included a handful of Unionist/Loyalist/Ordinary Protestants too so you should support the opening of these cases for investigation especially as these type of victims concern you.


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    #91
    Subliminal Stimulus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭Subliminal Stimulus


    The soldiers and officers involved in the killing of ANY Irish citizen, republican or not, should be investigated by us here in the south, subsequently extradited to the south, locked up in southern jails, and subjected to the same torturous conditions that are still being enforced on Irish POWs to this day.

    The republican boys in Maghaberry Jail County Antrim have recently been forced to start a dirty protest due to their severely appaling conditions, and I sense a new round of hunger strikes aren't far away. The portion of the Good Friday agreement allowing the release of non-combatant paramilitary members after two years has not been unilaterally enforced.

    I doubt if justice can ever be truly served. Here's hoping karma will get us at least some of the way there.


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