[lmaopml]

Originally Posted by Benny_Cake

Since you have a Kindle you might try the autobiography of Frederick Douglass, which is available for free online. He was an escaped slave who went on to become one of the great abolitionists. Although he was a Christian himself, he was despairing about how many of the slaveholders who proclaimed their faith the loudest and attended Methodist camp meetings could commit the cruellest of acts. A number of American denominations split over the issue of slavery, most notably the Methodists and Baptists.

Thanks Benny, I'll download it - even better when they're free

[philologos]

Originally Posted by Andrewf20

I have grown up in a Christian family and have attended Mass most of my life however these ideas you mention were never made clear to me. I have never heard of our good deeds being planned in advance. I was always taught that we should do good deeds do please God. Its frustrating that so much ambiguity can occur in relation to this. I guess its a matter of interpretation - for example - different homilies from different priests presenting the Bibles teachings in different ways from parish to parish.

I think the passage is pretty clear about what God has done for us. I'm sure people might disagree, but how else am I to interpret that passage of Scripture?

If the Bible is God speaking to us, isn't it the best place to start seeking after Him?

The passage is Ephesians 2:8-10 if you want to look it up later and have a look.

[lmaopml]

Originally Posted by Benny_Cake

Since you have a Kindle you might try the autobiography of Frederick Douglass, which is available for free online. He was an escaped slave who went on to become one of the great abolitionists. Although he was a Christian himself, he was despairing about how many of the slaveholders who proclaimed their faith the loudest and attended Methodist camp meetings could commit the cruellest of acts. A number of American denominations split over the issue of slavery, most notably the Methodists and Baptists.

I had to post after reading this book Benny. It will stay with me for a long time - and would recommend it to anybody who dares take on the emotions experienced when reading of this former slaves journey from slavery with it's dehumanising character to emancipation and beyond. I'm gonna buy the rest of his books, a complete fan of the wonderful Frederick Douglass!

I also noted and am quite proud to say that he was a great admirer of our very own Daniel O' Connell who he spoke of in the book and met too in his life time - another abolitionist. It's not something that I was ever taught about in history,this part of Daniel's own friendship with Frederick, or at least never got into any great detail about, so I found it a fascinating insight into the strenght of mind and spirit of the abolitionists of the period against all odds and all foes -

Hard to believe these things happened - the fact slavery is still going on and people trafficking should make everybody hopping mad enough to do something, anything small even to help stop it.

http://www.irishcentral.com/IrishAme...125574733.html

I know this is slightly off topic mods, but just a quick response - If it needs to be reassigned or anything no problem.

[Benny_Cake]

Glad you liked it lmaopml - I had never heard of him until I started reading up a bit on slavery myself. Which is quite crazy really, given his start in life and what he achieved he has got to be one of the greatest Americans who ever lived. Tg4 made a documentary about his friendship with Daniel O'Connell which they repeat everyone often, that's worth seeing as well.

All thismight not relate directly with the original topic of the thread, but Douglass was keenly aware of how his contemporaries could use the Bible to justify the evil of slavery by cherrypicking select passages. More recently, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa used many of the same passages to justify apartheid. All of which illustrates the danger of using scripture to advance our own prejudices and self-interest - and this is a trap that both fundamentalist and progressive Christians can fall into. Thankfully God gave us reason and the Holy Spirit, it is unfortunate that the slaveholders of Frederick Douglass time didn't listen to that.

[PDN]

Originally Posted by lmaopml

I had to post after reading this book Benny. It will stay with me for a long time - and would recommend it to anybody who dares take on the emotions experienced when reading of this former slaves journey from slavery with it's dehumanising character to emancipation and beyond. I'm gonna buy the rest of his books, a complete fan of the wonderful Frederick Douglass!

I also noted and am quite proud to say that he was a great admirer of our very own Daniel O' Connell who he spoke of in the book and met too in his life time - another abolitionist. It's not something that I was ever taught about in history,this part of Daniel's own friendship with Frederick, or at least never got into any great detail about, so I found it a fascinating insight into the strenght of mind and spirit of the abolitionists of the period against all odds and all foes -

Hard to believe these things happened - the fact slavery is still going on and people trafficking should make everybody hopping mad enough to do something, anything small even to help stop it.

http://www.irishcentral.com/IrishAme...125574733.html

I know this is slightly off topic mods, but just a quick response - If it needs to be reassigned or anything no problem.

Another free Kindle book from Amazon you might enjoy concerning slavery is "Harriet Tubman - the Moses of Her People" by Sarah H. Bradford. An amazing story of the illiterate escaped slave who established the famous 'Underground Railroad' to take slaves to freedom.

[lmaopml]

Originally Posted by PDN

Another free Kindle book from Amazon you might enjoy concerning slavery is "Harriet Tubman - the Moses of Her People" by Sarah H. Bradford. An amazing story of the illiterate escaped slave who established the famous 'Underground Railroad' to take slaves to freedom.

PDN, I downloaded this book on Harriet, and really enjoyed reading about this woman who had such a strong trusting and humble faith in all her adversity, and the kindest heart - the woman was a living Saint for sure, an inspiration! The way the slaves had to bury their dead at night and how they went about that had me in tears..

I'm on a roll reading books on the topic of slavery, particularly in relation to the States and the abolitionists - it's fascinating and enlightening - some very real live super heroes, can't help but feel the Spirit of God at work, and some people who truly gave themselves over to his will for good.

[wolfsbane]

Originally Posted by Benny_Cake

Glad you liked it lmaopml - I had never heard of him until I started reading up a bit on slavery myself. Which is quite crazy really, given his start in life and what he achieved he has got to be one of the greatest Americans who ever lived. Tg4 made a documentary about his friendship with Daniel O'Connell which they repeat everyone often, that's worth seeing as well.

All thismight not relate directly with the original topic of the thread, but Douglass was keenly aware of how his contemporaries could use the Bible to justify the evil of slavery by cherrypicking select passages. More recently, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa used many of the same passages to justify apartheid. All of which illustrates the danger of using scripture to advance our own prejudices and self-interest - and this is a trap that both fundamentalist and progressive Christians can fall into. Thankfully God gave us reason and the Holy Spirit, it is unfortunate that the slaveholders of Frederick Douglass time didn't listen to that.

Yes, even good Christians need to beware of the deceitfulness of their fallen nature. We are so good at justifying ourselves, making our rights more important than the rights of others. Justifying evil even, if it protects our prosperity.

This world is the enemy of God - and Christians are constantly the object of Satan's plots to subvert or destroy us. It can take many years for that to sink in to thick heads like mine. We assume because we are sincere that every thought we get must be right. That's why the Bible tells us to: Test all things; hold fast what is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:22


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Deuteronomy 24:14 “You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether one of your brethren or one of the aliens who is in your land within your gates. 15 Each day you shall give him his wages, and not let the sun go down on it, for he is poor and has set his heart on it; lest he cry out against you to the Lord, and it be sin to you.

[tommy2bad]

This world is the enemy of God

Damn fool to create it then.

[wolfsbane]

Originally Posted by tommy2bad

Damn fool to create it then.

So you don't think free-will should have been given to man! OK, I respect your opinion - but I'm sure God knew best.

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Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

[tommy2bad]

Whats free will got to do with it, the statement was 'This world is the enemy of God'
I disagree with that supposition. If this world was the enemy of God why did he create it?
Do you see the disjoint here? Sometimes simplistic sound bites deserve a sarky retort, this is one of them times.

Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good

[wolfsbane]

Originally Posted by tommy2bad

Whats free will got to do with it, the statement was 'This world is the enemy of God'
I disagree with that supposition. If this world was the enemy of God why did he create it?
Do you see the disjoint here? Sometimes simplistic sound bites deserve a sarky retort, this is one of them times.

This world is the enemy of God since its Fall into sin. It was not created sinful. But it was created with free-will.

Since you questioned why God would have created the world if it were now His enemy, I assumed you questioned His wisdom in giving free-will. I gather by your reply that you did not know the world was created sin-free and at peace with God.

Now you know better.

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Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—