DART+ (DART Expansion)

bk · 17-03-2010 10:21am

MJohnston wrote: »

No need for expensive rebranding

It isn't so much about a cheap repaint and more about putting consistent signage at all stations and decent high quality signs around the city leading you from one Metro station to another, plus spider maps, etc.

MJohnston wrote: »

Really nice job there MJohnston, I must say I really like Dublin Buses icon, simple and modern, yet encapsulates Dublin's history.

However I think your image also shows why it is unnecessarily complicated to separate out Dart/Metro/Luas. You have eleven different symbols for what is supposed to end up as an integrated network, that is the same number of symbols as London which is ten times larger then Dublin.

The thing is Metro/Dart/Luas will make up the core back bone of Dublins Transport network, everyone agrees that they should all have one website, one ticket, one map, etc.

Well given that, it really doesn't make much sense to brand them differently, it will only lead to unnecessary confusion and no one has yet given a good reason why people need to know they are on a Dart line rather then a Metro line?

I think some people around here are just too stuck in old, pre integration, thinking or just care too much about the width of the gauge!

MJohnston, I don't have your photoshop skills, but I'd recommend the yellow dublin bus icon for all, with Metro as the big letters up top and then as a compromise, Dart Line 1, Dart Line 2, Northern Line, Western Line, Green Line, Red Line, Dublin Bike and Taxi Rank as sub headings.

etchyed · 17-03-2010 11:09am

bk wrote: »

I think some people around here are just too stuck in old, pre integration, thinking or just care too much about the width of the gauge!

Please don't cast aspersions on people just because they don't agree with you.

bk · 17-03-2010 11:32am

I certainly don't have MJohnston's artistic talent, but here is my rough idea.

attachment.php?attachmentid=107887&stc=1&d=1268821722

Obviously a graphics artist could do a much better job. Also I think perhaps Dublin Bus, Taxi Rank and Bikes should have a slightly different icon colour to separate them out from the core Dart/Metro/Luas network.

But the most important point is that the core Dart/Metro/Luas network should look as integrated as possible.

Typewriter · 17-03-2010 11:33am

MJohnston wrote: »

No need for expensive rebranding, they can just give me two grand for this

Doing this made me think of something, why does any transport option that wants to be accessible to everyone use a colour coding system? Surely a bit obtrusive to the many colour blind.

Absolutely fantastic! I agree with you on the colour blindness I had trouble with that in london.

Some constructive crititisum: There will only really be two dart lines maybe you could call them the 'Connolly Line' & the 'Hueston Line'? And also don't for get to add an icon for the Dublin bikes!

:):o

MJohnston · 17-03-2010 12:48pm

Don't take the subtitles for each icon as my definitive say on how I think they should be named, I just wanted to show how they could possibly vary without really knowing what to name them. I suppose the extra Dart is to show that you could brand different spurs. I'm not particularly fond of using different descriptors for each of the lines either, destinations for Dart, compass directions for Metro and arbitrary colours for Luas, and I suspect thats something that would have to be standardised too.

Yixian · 17-03-2010 12:57pm

I'm not sure how much Dublin Bus would go for taking their logo and applying it to everything, but other than that I love it. That's exactly what I've been talking about - it is effectively a single brand.

Some interesting names for the different lines would be nice, rather than just DART line 1 etc.

Typewriter · 17-03-2010 1:26pm

Yixian wrote: »

I'm not sure how much Dublin Bus would go for taking their logo and applying it to everything,

How about using the castles from the councils logo or something similar.

attachment.php?attachmentid=107895&d=1268828607

murphaph · 17-03-2010 1:40pm

noelfirl wrote: »

It's arguably the former, because it's more descriptive. It's a signficant mode change to come out at Heuston, go above ground and change to a non-metro grade tram. Maybe it's just me but I think it's a bit of codology to call a non-grade seperated tram a "Metro" especially when, as I've said before, Metro is typically interpreted as grade-seperated, fast, frequent heavy rail.

Agree. Be honest with the commuter. If it's a tram, call it a tram. I dislike Cologne because they call all their trams metro (U Bahn) even though they have quite a lot of on street sections. Berlin is completely transparent: S Bahn (heavy rail) U Bahn (underground or overground, fully segregated), Tram, MetroTram (for trams with a lot of segregation and higher frequencies and speeds and which run all night), Bus and metroBus (high frequency buses that run all night every night of the year).

The main thing is to have common maps and integrated fares and ticketing. Commuters will figure the rest out quite quickly.

Yixian · 17-03-2010 1:45pm

murphaph wrote: »

Agree. Be honest with the commuter. If it's a tram, call it a tram. I dislike Cologne because they call all their trams metro (U Bahn) even though they have quite a lot of on street sections. Berlin is completely transparent: S Bahn (heavy rail) U Bahn (underground or overground, fully segregated), Tram, MetroTram (for trams with a lot of segregation and higher frequencies and speeds and which run all night), Bus and metroBus (high frequency buses that run all night every night of the year).

The main thing is to have common maps and integrated fares and ticketing. Commuters will figure the rest out quite quickly.

Ok well in that case you'd have to rename the Luas the "Tram" and the DART the "Heavy Rail Service", because as far as a member of the public is concerned eg. a tourist, you don't know what the ƒuck you're getting just because someone tells you it's a "DART" or the gaelic word for speed - in that case it might as well all be called the same thing.

The way I see it, nobody really cares about the gauge of the track etc., the name refers to the network, and by definition these projects aim to create an integrated network - so give it an integrated name. Dublin Metro.

KevR · 17-03-2010 1:59pm

green_jesus wrote:

Doing this made me think of something, why does any transport option that wants to be accessible to everyone use a colour coding system? Surely a bit obtrusive to the many colour blind.

green_jesus wrote: »

Absolutely fantastic! I agree with you on the colour blindness I had trouble with that in london.

Some constructive crititisum: There will only really be two dart lines maybe you could call them the 'Connolly Line' & the 'Hueston Line'? And also don't for get to add an icon for the Dublin bikes! :):o

I guess a colour map is easiest for the majority to read quickly so they go with that. Transport for London have a Black and White map available on their website which anyone who has difficulty with the coloured map could print and carry with them.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/bw-large-print-map.pdf

Aard · 17-03-2010 2:07pm

I agree re the colour / bw thing. It's the norm, let's not complicate it.

murphaph · 17-03-2010 2:11pm

Yixian wrote: »

Ok well in that case you'd have to rename the Luas the "Tram" and the DART the "Heavy Rail Service", because as far as a member of the public is concerned eg. a tourist, you don't know what the ƒuck you're getting just because someone tells you it's a "DART" or the gaelic word for speed - in that case it might as well all be called the same thing.

I would indeed rename the Luas to "Tram". I would probably incorporate DART and metro North under one "metro" brand as they are very similar in what they will do, but an on street tram is different.

DART is restrictive because it only refers to Dublin, whereas the German equivalent (S Bahn) is recognisable nationwide by 99% of people as being a heavy rail type commuter system.

I would like to think the arrow services in Cork, Galway and Limerick etc. would eventually have a high enough frequency to justify a metro brand, so I'd future proof it for national use, like the Germans did with S Bahn (which simply means Schnell Bahn (fast train) and U Bahn and Tram/Bus. They use the same icons nationwide for these modes so someone from Bavaria would be comfortable using the system here in Berlin. The various icons can be seen on the home page of BVG
if you wish. You'll note that even ferries are integrated into the system here lol!

We should develop the branding with network expansion in mind. It's no good to limit it to the short term network, only to have to rebrand when new tram lines are built etc. The German model is well developed and has been in use for decades. The S Bahn logo is about 100 years old. It will take time for these logos to sink into the subconscious of the Irish but it will happen...but we must avoid rebranding for the sake of it (as is so fondly done by Irish rail, etc.)

dowlingm · 17-03-2010 2:14pm

Yixian wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vancouver_Skytrain_Rupert_station_train.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Canada_Line_001.jpg

Look familiar? :P

Given the likely EMU order for DART Underground and the MetroNorth order I'm sure it would be possible to make them look similar (even if by different manufacturers, as Canada Line (Rotem) and Millennium Line ICTS Mark II (Bombardier) are, if we needed trains under the same brand to look superficially similar.

The main problem with DART as a brand for metro is the likelihood that industrial action would contaminate the brand, which is why we ended up with RPA, SIPTU and a no-strike in the first place.

KevR · 17-03-2010 2:22pm

bk wrote: »

I certainly don't have MJohnston's artistic talent, but here is my rough idea.

I like this. I definitely don't believe in retaining the various brands.

Although, I would prefer the 2 DART lines to be named something other than 'DART Line 1' and 'DART Line 2'. As someone else suggested, the 'Connolly Line' and 'Heuston Line' - I personally would prefer this.

Another thing that I would do is give the symbol backgrounds different colours.

Leave the Metro Bus Symbol as yellow.
Change the Green Line symbol background to green.
Change the Red Line symbol background to red.
Have the Northern, Western, Connolly and Heuston line symbol background colours as blue, light blue, grey, black, orange, brown, pink... or whatever.

For the Metro Red Line and Metro Green Line, I would add a very small tram image to the bottom of the lines' symbols so people would be able to distinguish them as being street running trams rather than segrated rail.

Typewriter · 17-03-2010 2:23pm

My feeble attempt...:D

attachment.php?attachmentid=107901&stc=1&d=1268832776

attachment.php?attachmentid=107903&d=1268833152

bk · 17-03-2010 3:03pm

murphaph wrote: »

I would indeed rename the Luas to "Tram". I would probably incorporate DART and metro North under one "metro" brand as they are very similar in what they will do, but an on street tram is different.

But that is the problem, our Trams are pretty high spec, in particular the Green line which is almost fully segregated and has a relatively high speed and frequency equivalent to many light Metro systems in similar sized cities.

Here is the thing why would any commuter or toursit decide not to take the Luas, just because it is a tram? I'd agree if it overlapped with Dart/Metro, but it doesn't so there really isn't much point in separating it out.

dowlingm wrote:

The main problem with DART as a brand for metro is the likelihood that industrial action would contaminate the brand, which is why we ended up with RPA, SIPTU and a no-strike in the first place.

Yes, that would be a valid concern alright.

green_jesus, perhaps just one of the castles would be a simpler and clearer symbol.

dowlingm · 17-03-2010 6:53pm

LA Metro just uses colours (Silver, Blue, Red). That those colours could refer to BRT, LRT or subway doesn't seem to matter - unless you were colourblind I suppose.

eia340600 · 17-03-2010 7:28pm

]Sure we'll all give it a go...I like the DART Brand so took a go at it...Mind you its hard to in "Paint"

transport_for_dublin_rework.jpg

[IMG][/img]

Sulmac · 17-03-2010 11:10pm

That's a bit too close to "Maxi"-Pads for comfort, but I get what your general idea is! :pac:

I would also support a single brand, with all services (Bus, Luas, Metro, DART, Commuter) under a single numbering system.

For instance, the DART line from Maynooth to Greystones could be "Route 8" (random number) of the entire network, there would be no other Route 8 on any other system.

This would allow for more clarity on rail services where routes overlap, such as the Luas Red Line.

On the Red Line there are the following services:

The Point-Tallaght
Connolly-Tallaght
Connolly-Heuston
The Point-Red Cow (after concerts at The O2)

Soon there will be services to Citywest/Saggart added to that.

What I'd do is number each service, so The Point to Tallaght could be (again, hypothetically) Route 1, Connolly to Tallaght Route 2, Connolly to Heuston Route 3, The Point to Red Cow Route 4. Again, there would be no other Routes 1, 2, 3 or 4 in the entire network.

This is what they do in Amsterdam (PDF map with tram, metro and bus routes), and I think it's an excellent idea.

Bus Routes also need a major reshuffle, it makes no sense that the 145, 46A and 10 (as an example) all go along the same route (N11) - you wouldn't think it. Maybe numbering them based on road numbers could be an idea (so route 11 would run down the N11), though they need to have some kind of consistent numbering system.

Night buses are also needed every night on major routes, as well as a regular Sunday timetable on all public holidays - even Christmas Day!

I also agree that the Taxi service and DublinBikes scheme should be part of any "joint" rebranding.

Victor · 17-03-2010 11:59pm

The thinking within the RPA is that Metro North will use the Luas brand, so as to not end up with too many brands.

It will be the Blue Line.

lucernarian · 18-03-2010 12:18am

Say if Veolia didn't manage Metro North, would using the Luas brand for that line complicate matters? E.g. for pricing, customer service, human resources etc.

Victor · 18-03-2010 12:34am

murphaph wrote: »

Agree. Be honest with the commuter. If it's a tram, call it a tram. I dislike Cologne because they call all their trams metro (U Bahn) even though they have quite a lot of on street sections.

In fairness all the routes are underground in the city centre and in many local centres.

dowlingm · 18-03-2010 3:05am

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Say if Veolia didn't manage Metro North, would using the Luas brand for that line complicate matters? E.g. for pricing, customer service, human resources etc.

Doubt it - RPA's brand not Veolia's. Veolia in theory could be fired and replaced by Keolis or somebody like that next time the contract came up or for other contract reasons.

murphaph · 18-03-2010 9:38am

Victor wrote: »

In fairness all the routes are underground in the city centre and in many local centres.

No they're not. The area around Neumarkt is a major hub for trams (U Bahn) but it's on street. In Stuttgart it's ok, almost completely segregated with everything in the centre in tunnels, but it's not so in Cologne (they are still building tunnels there at the moment, a major north-south one), not yet anyway.

bk · 18-03-2010 11:42am

eia340600 wrote: »

]Sure we'll all give it a go...I like the DART Brand so took a go at it...Mind you its hard to in "Paint"

No offense, but I don't like it. No one outside Dublin knows what DART means (hell many Dubliners don't know either), wile Metro is internationally recognised. A traveler arriving in Dublin will have a much easier time if it is called Metro.

Also DART currently specifically relates to the DART, it would cause confusion when it would be introduced, while Metro would be a whole new brand, so slightly less confusing.

Also the Maxi/Midi/Light thing is a completely unnecessary separation.

Just looking at the LA Metro and it is almost exactly what I'm talking about.

They operate:
2 Subways equivalent to our Metro/Dart
3 "Light Rail" lines which are basically the same as our LUAS
Bus routes

and they call them all Metro and name the lines after colors, (red, blue, etc.) with no other differentiation needed or required. They don't even differentiate buses, but I think that is a step too far. On the whole, nice, simple, well integrated and easy to understand.

I also like their Metro Liners and Transitway services for buses, nice ideas.

markpb · 18-03-2010 11:47am

bk wrote: »

No offense, but I don't like it. No one outside Dublin knows what DART means (hell many Dubliners don't know either), wile Metro is internationally recognised. A traveler arriving in Dublin will have a much easier time if it is called Metro.

I agree with almost everything you say but I wouldn't worry about picking a brand name other than Dart. People find their way onto the Tube, the Bart and the Subway without any problems. Tourists will either look up travel information before they leave or they should be able to find it out at the airport.

On the other hand, to most Dubliners Dart means a slow, infrequent train service with (northside) stations in dark, out of the way places. Luas has a relatively good reputation as a brand and I'd have no problem re-using it across the entire network.

noelfirl · 18-03-2010 12:43pm

bk wrote: »

No offense, but I don't like it. No one outside Dublin knows what DART means (hell many Dubliners don't know either), wile Metro is internationally recognised. A traveler arriving in Dublin will have a much easier time if it is called Metro.

Internationally recognised, in the main, as a particular type of rail transit system. If you make a comparison of the number of cities/regions where "Metro" means one or more branches of a rail system, and the number of cities/regions where it refers to the complete mass transit system, one list will be very heavy compared to the other. How exactly is it going to be *that* much easier for the arriving traveller? They are inevitably going to be armed with a map, so I fail to see how significant confusion is going to arise when on day 3 of their trip they come across two platforms and a sign saying "Luas" rather then "Metro".

For natives/regular commuters, having two/three brands is openly transparent as to what mode of transit you're getting. With regards to DART/Metro vs. Luas, as has been mentioned before, for whatever reason, people might like to know whether it's segregated mid/large rail, or non-segregated light rail. And I'm sorry, but the red Luas line is subject to much interaction with normal traffic, and forthcoming extensions of the green Line will be too, as it is not being continued beyond Sandyford as Metro standard. High spec tram they may be in relative terms, but neither should be rightly classified as "Metro" where on a global scale, neither are.

dowlingm · 18-03-2010 1:41pm

I disagree bk - tourists might not know before they came what DART is but it wouldn't take long to find out. Vancouver doesn't seem to suffer much that they picked Skytrain rather than Metro or Subway - and the latter could just mean sandwiches and the former a newspaper!

bk · 18-03-2010 2:18pm

noelfirl wrote: »

Internationally recognised, in the main, as a particular type of rail transit system. If you make a comparison of the number of cities/regions where "Metro" means one or more branches of a rail system, and the number of cities/regions where it refers to the complete mass transit system, one list will be very heavy compared to the other.

Very good question, I don't know, but I do know there are lots of examples of both. Both are very common around the world.

However do remember what Metro means, it is short for Metropolitan, as in Dublin Metropolitan Area, using the term for just one particular type of rail based public transport is actually a misrepresentation of the term. Using Metro as a term for all public transport options in a Metropolitan area is actually more accurate.

However while Metro is by far my favourite option, I wouldn't mind if it is something else, as long as their is one brand/name for all services and as long as it isn't Dart.

That is why I think Metro is the best option, it is currently not used by any service in Dublin so it is neutral and doesn't carry any baggage of Dart/Luas.

Of course we could call it (DTA) Dublin Transport Authority or (DMTA) Dublin Metropolitan Transport Authority (just like the NY MTA), but I think they are all just unnecessarily complicated.

murphaph · 18-03-2010 2:31pm

bk wrote: »

However do remember what Metro means, it is short for Metropolitan, as in Dublin Metropolitan Area, using the term for just one particular type of rail based public transport is actually a misrepresentation of the term. Using Metro as a term for all public transport options in a Metropolitan area is actually more accurate.

I don't think so. Metro is short for Metropolitan as in Metropolitan Railway Company (the first underground in the world).

It does convey a certain type of transport in its meaning in the vast bulk of cities in which it's used. LA is really an exception to the rule here. I would aim the system primarily at commuters...visitors will get a map and figure it out quite easily the way we do when we go to London etc.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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