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Interesting Public Sector comparison with NI

  • 19-03-2012 7:41pm
    #1
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    I found this quite interesting. We are often told that wages here are much higher than in the UK.

    From the Sunday Independent yesterday the following comparisons were made on wages for the PSNI and the Guards (converted to Euro):

    PSNI
    Constable: €30,480 - €43,967
    Sergent: €42,872 - €49,410
    Inspector €54,929 - €61,101
    SuperIntendent: €73,139 - €87,388
    Chief Super: €87,338 - €94,673
    Assistant Chief Constable: €109229 - €127,436

    Guards:
    Garda: €25,745 - €45,793
    Sergent: €46,226 - €53119
    Inspector: €45,404 - €59178
    Superintendent: €72841 - €84909
    Chief Super: €87259 - €104457
    Assistant Commissioner: €139,444

    They seem quite similar and considering the difference in living costs the PSNI officers would be a lot better off?


«13

Comments

  • #2
    femur61
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    I don't know but do people in the UK pay more tax. They have the NHS, free lumch in schools so is their net salary different. I know now levies etc have been introduced but before that was there wage comparable tax wise.


  • #3
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    femur61 wrote: »
    I don't know but do people in the UK pay more tax. They have the NHS, free lumch in schools so is their net salary different. I know now levies etc have been introduced but before that was there wage comparable tax wise.
    The PSNI aside (there are almost certainly historical reasons why police officers in NI are comparatively well paid-remembering that one was blown up in the not too distant past.) the UK pays its public servants much less, especially in the NHS (when compared to the HSE). They also have much smaller benefits (dole at 65 quid a week) and so on. They spend less in delivering more I suppose.


  • #4
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    They spend less in delivering more I suppose.

    I suspect you suppose wrong, if NI is the point of comparison, as there are much larger numbers of people in the public employ there than in the Republic, Scotland etc.


  • #5
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Generally speaking, salaries are far lower in the UK than in Ireland. I recently read that the median gross UK salary is about £26,000 - I'll try and dig up the source for that. I don't seem to be able to find an equivalent figure for Ireland, but I do know that the mean gross salary in Ireland is around the €36,000 mark:

    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2011/earnlabcosts_q42011.pdf


  • #6
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Generally speaking, salaries are far lower in the UK than in Ireland. I recently read that the median gross UK salary is about £26,000 - I'll try and dig up the source for that. I don't seem to be able to find an equivalent figure for Ireland, but I do know that the mean gross salary in Ireland is around the €36,000 mark:

    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2011/earnlabcosts_q42011.pdf

    On top of that, it should be noted that the Euro has slid in value to the sterling but wages on either side of the border haven't been changed to reflect that. The euro was worth around about 90pence this time last year as now it is worth nearer 85 pence. As such, converting from sterling to euro when making a comparison will have a bit of a multiplier effect on paper which doesn't actually exist in reality.


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  • #7
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Gardaí have an awful lot of allowances built in that are not part of basic pay but are included for pension calculations.
    The McCarthy Report wrote:
    The Group notes the large number of allowances paid to members of the Gardaí and that the majority of these allowances are pay-related and pensionable. Many of the allowances appear to have limited rational justification.

    The overall Garda pay bill is around €940m a year (excluding employers PRSI contribution) of which €643m (or 68%) is regular pay with €217m on allowances and €80m on overtime.

    There are some 57 allowances in total, including the following:

    • Rent Allowance (€58.9m in 2008): whatever about the historical origins of this allowance, it is essentially treated as part of pay and is paid to every member up to and including Chief Superintendent; **whether they rent or not**
    • Premium Payments (€9.07m in 2008): to members who are on leave, etc, and would ordinarily be entitled to claim unsocial hours allowance if they were not on leave;
    • Clerical Allowance (€2.07m in 2008): to officers engaged in clerical duties to compensate for loss of other allowances, particularly unsocial hours;
    • Gaeltacht Allowance and Aran Island Allowance (€1.2m in 2008): for members serving in defined Gaeltacht areas who perform their duties through the medium of Irish and whose knowledge of the language is certified as adequate for that purpose and to compensate members stationed on the Aran Islands for the special costs of travel to and from the mainland;
    • Change Management Allowance (€0.1m in 2008): paid to Garda Sergeants and Inspectors appointed to the Garda Change Management Unit for application of their policing knowledge and skills and to ensure retention of skilled police officers in this area;
    • Uniform Grant and Allowance and Boot Allowance (€50.4m in 2008): paid to members of An Garda Síochána for the maintenance of uniform;
    • Plain Clothes Allowance (€1.9m): paid in lieu of the uniform allowance for maintenance of plain clothes – clothes not provided; and
    • Non-Public Duty Allowances (€1.7m in 2008): to members of An Garda Síochána who perform a duty of a non-public nature (e.g. inside sports stadiums, race meetings).


  • #8
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,353 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Gardaí have an awful lot of allowances built in that are not part of basic pay but are included for pension calculations.

    But isint it true that not all gardai can claim all these allowances, only the few allownaces that relate to their current position / line of work?


  • #9
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    kceire wrote: »
    But isint it true that not all gardai can claim all these allowances, only the few allownaces that relate to their current position / line of work?
    In 2008 two thirds is pay, one third is allowances, such as this one:
    Rent Allowance (€58.9m in 2008): whatever about the historical origins of this allowance, it is essentially treated as part of pay and is paid to every member up to and including Chief Superintendent


  • #10
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    woodoo wrote: »
    Guards:
    Garda: €25,745 - €45,793
    Sergent: €46,226 - €53119
    Inspector: €45,404 - €59178
    Superintendent: €72841 - €84909
    Chief Super: €87259 - €104457
    Assistant Commissioner: €139,444
    The actual gross pay, when allowances such as rent allowance (€4162 per member per annum, tax free) are included will average around 45% higher than those figures.


  • #11
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    An NI have rates(like property tax) which some down here are horrified of, its a bill that has to be paid out of an officers net pay. http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/rates http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672338.html
    Irish Times wrote:
    Properties in the Holyland are now valued at about £140,000 (€168,000) based on a revaluation programme carried out in 2005 – close to the height of the housing boom. So most rates bill are about £940 (€1,127) per annum.

    A grand p.a. for a 168k house, free here(ROI!)!


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  • #12
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    gurramok wrote: »
    An NI have rates(like property tax) which some down here are horrified of, its a bill that has to be paid out of an officers net pay. http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/rates http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672338.html


    A grand p.a. for a 168k house, free here(ROI!)!

    What a bad argument so in which country has the higher cost of living??? All of which has to be paid out of the officers nett pay your being disingenerous..the argument should be based on the Garda vs PSNI Gross Salary + Allowences...nothing else as this is what the tax payer has to pay


  • #13
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    femur61 wrote: »
    I don't know but do people in the UK pay more tax. They have the NHS, free lumch in schools so is their net salary different. I know now levies etc have been introduced but before that was there wage comparable tax wise.

    NIC is about 11% so despite the USC and PRSI, still higher. Better tax credits here as well so on the lower levels of wages quoted, Net pay would be higher.

    Not sure on what the pension deductions would be for the PSNI.
    murphaph wrote: »
    The PSNI aside (there are almost certainly historical reasons why police officers in NI are comparatively well paid-remembering that one was blown up in the not too distant past.) the UK pays its public servants much less, especially in the NHS (when compared to the HSE). They also have much smaller benefits (dole at 65 quid a week) and so on. They spend less in delivering more I suppose.

    The impression I always had was that the PSNI were better paid than their English equivalent, not sure if that stacks up now, could well have been just more overtime and danger money allowances.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #14
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    fliball123 wrote: »
    What a bad argument so in which country has the higher cost of living??? All of which has to be paid out of the officers nett pay your being disingenerous..the argument should be based on the Garda vs PSNI Gross Salary + Allowences...nothing else as this is what the tax payer has to pay

    The question was which is better off?

    Which profession pays less tax then? Comparison of tax rates : http://www.kearon.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/IRL-UK-tax-comparison-2012-rates.pdf

    Seems to me most ordinary rank officers down here are better off as they pay less income tax(under 40k earnings bracket) and do not pay high indirect taxes like property tax.


  • #15
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    gurramok wrote: »
    The question was which is better off?

    Which profession pays less tax then? Comparison of tax rates : http://www.kearon.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/IRL-UK-tax-comparison-2012-rates.pdf

    Seems to me most ordinary rank officers down here are better off as they pay less income tax(under 40k earnings bracket) and do not pay high indirect taxes like property tax.

    True but every citizen wheather public / private or dolee has a myriad of taxes to pay in Ireland..This idea that we are a low tax country is now longer able to hold water...When carbon, the new household, soon to come water taxes, VAT, DIRT, PRSI, USC are taken into consideration we pay our fair share and as much as those in the north do.


  • #16
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    True but every citizen wheather public / private or dolee has a myriad of taxes to pay in Ireland..

    True but every citizen wheather public / private or dolee has a myriad of taxes to pay in every country. So what?


  • #17
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    ardmacha wrote: »
    True but every citizen wheather public / private or dolee has a myriad of taxes to pay in every country. So what?

    Well we are arguing that up north they pay a tax which we are kicking and screaming about ala the household tax..I just think its a bad argument to pick one specific tax that one country is paying and the other is not when we are looking at what the O.P has brought up?


  • #18
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Well we are arguing that up north they pay a tax which we are kicking and screaming about ala the household tax..I just think its a bad argument to pick one specific tax that one country is paying and the other is not when we are looking at what the O.P has brought up?

    Why not? It costs a grand for a £140k value house as in the link. That NI officer is down 1k already.


  • #19
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    gurramok wrote: »
    Why not? It costs a grand for a £140k value house as in the link. That NI officer is down 1k already.

    I agree but you have to bring everything in to play then when dealing with the respective police vs gard argument on their Nett wage. Deal with the Gross that is what the tax payer is paying, how they spend it or what tax they pay are irrelent.


  • #20
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    fliball123 wrote: »
    True but every citizen wheather public / private or dolee has a myriad of taxes to pay in Ireland..This idea that we are a low tax country is now longer able to hold water...When carbon, the new household, soon to come water taxes, VAT, DIRT, PRSI, USC are taken into consideration we pay our fair share and as much as those in the north do.
    The carbon tax is relatively small, the household charge is miniscule compared to what UK residents pay in council tax, we already have water charges in the UK and we also pay VAT and DIRT. As for PRSI and the USC, the average person in the UK has significantly larger deductions taken from their income than the average person in Ireland.


  • #21
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    djpbarry wrote: »
    The carbon tax is relatively small, the household charge is miniscule compared to what UK residents pay in council tax, we already have water charges in the UK and we also pay VAT and DIRT. As for PRSI and the USC, the average person in the UK has significantly larger deductions taken from their income than the average person in Ireland.

    Have you any links to this?? I dont doubt it ..it would be good if we had a comparison with our nearest neighbour for taxes we are paying both direct and indirect


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  • #22
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    One thing that is interesting about Northern Ireland civil service pay rates is that at the top they are higher than down here with the top rate being £205,000 equivalent to €245,000, about 22% higher than our top rate of €200,000.

    http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/scs-pay-bands-1-04-07-to-31-03-2012.pdf

    It does seem that the amounts are dependant on performance. It would be interesting to see how many are at different parts of the pay bands.

    It would seem that these rates cover principal officer and above in our civil service.


  • #23
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Have you any links to this?? I dont doubt it ..it would be good if we had a comparison with our nearest neighbour for taxes we are paying both direct and indirect

    I am paying nearly three times as much in income tax and NI contributions here as I was at home. I also have to pay my share of council tax as a tenant which is £1500 in the 3 bed house I share. There is also water which gets paid quarterly (around 100)


  • #24
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    It is often stated that our civil servants at the bottom deserve to be protected from pay cuts while it is the more senior civil servants that should be cut.

    Looking at Northern Ireland figures
    http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/pay_2010_circular.pdf

    it would seem that the entry-level administrative post is paid a salary ranging from £15,619 to £17,533 which is equivalent to €18,734 to €21,030.

    down here the clerical officer grade starts at €20,859 and goes up to €33,607. That includes the 10% cut for new entrants as well as the previous pay cut (it doesn't include the pension levy which was as low as 4% for these grades)

    http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/circ182010.pdf

    Even if you look at the next level up in Northern Ireland - the Admin Officer - you see a payscale of £18,038 to £22,180 equivalent to €21,636 to €26,611, you see that our entry-level grade is better paid than the North's next level grade.

    What do I conclude? Well, taken with my earlier post that showed those at the top in the North are paid more than those down South, these figures raise the question as to where the overpayment lies in the Irish public service - at the bottom seems to be the answer which is not the answer that most would expect.


  • #25
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Head The Wall wrote: »
    I am paying nearly three times as much in income tax and NI contributions here as I was at home. I also have to pay my share of council tax as a tenant which is £1500 in the 3 bed house I share. There is also water which gets paid quarterly (around 100)

    But you can buy a tin of beans for about 11p over there or a loaf of bread for about 30p.


  • #26
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    woodoo wrote: »
    But you can buy a tin of beans for about 11p over there or a loaf of bread for about 30p.
    If I saw a loaf of bread on sale for 30p in my local supermarket, I would doubt it was fit for human consumption.


  • #27
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,041 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    woodoo wrote: »
    But you can buy a tin of beans for about 11p over there or a loaf of bread for about 30p.

    Last time I checked Tesco value bread was 35c. I've never bought it though so I have no idea what it's like.


  • #28
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    This is an EU comparison report. http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance (it does not include the paycut of 2010).

    the executive secretary grades Ireland seems to be middle of the road. Take out the 2010 paycut and they may even be lower.

    Middle and Senior management are near the top.


  • #29
    rasper
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭rasper


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    woodoo wrote: »
    But you can buy a tin of beans for about 11p over there or a loaf of bread for about 30p.

    Last time I checked Tesco value bread was 35c. I've never bought it though so I have no idea what it's like.


    That must have been about 1995 as it's 65c today , but they can always buy cake


  • #30
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,041 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    rasper wrote: »
    That must have been about 1995 as it's 65c today , but they can always buy cake

    It was a couple of years ago.


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  • #31
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    Last time I checked Tesco value bread was 35c. I've never bought it though so I have no idea what it's like.


    Same goes with Aldi and Lidl very cheap in comparison to dunnes and tescos..I can get a weekly shop for 3 adults and 1 under 2.yo for 80 Euro


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