Gender, going to jail, male victims, etc.: the Caroline Brennan case, etc.

iptba · 20-02-2010 9:28pm #1

Although I do not follow the courts that closely, I have seen it pointed out that some women in Ireland have got light sentences for killing men.

To me, it looks like Caroline Brennan got a light sentence (5 years suspended) for killing her brother with a knife.

I think if the defendant had been a man or the dead person had been a woman, I think time it is quite likely that time would have been served.

People talk about domestic violence and that it should be taken seriously. Well, this could be said to be an example of domestic violence against a man.

deadhead13 · 20-02-2010 9:48pm

There was the case of Patrick O'Dwyer who was sentenced to 6 years in prison for the manslaughter of his sister in 2007. Similar offences on the face of it, but dramatically different sentences.

Giselle · 20-02-2010 11:21pm

iptba wrote: »

Although I do not follow the courts that closely, I have seen it pointed out that some women in Ireland have got light sentences for killing men.

To me, it looks like Caroline Brennan got a light sentence (5 years suspended) for killing her brother with a knife.

I think if the defendant had been a man or the dead person had been a woman, I think time it is quite likely that time would have been served.

People talk about domestic violence and that it should be taken seriously. Well, this could be said to be an example of domestic violence against a man.

She had apparently suffered constant bullying growing up, and threats in the time immediately prior to the killing, from her brother.

She was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. The sentencing guidelines are different.

Cicero · 21-02-2010 12:25am

without going into the details, I'm not quite sure that the cases above are similar....

deadhead13 · 21-02-2010 12:38am

Cicero wrote: »

without going into the details, I'm not quite sure that the cases above are similar....

It was an observation more than anything else. I don't know enough about either case to express an opinion either way really.

Cicero · 21-02-2010 12:46am

deadhead13 wrote: »

It was an observation more than anything else. I don't know enough about either case to express an opinion either way really.

Neither do I, nor do I think anyone does...OP...if you can 'risk' posting a 3rd post, please elaborate on your rationale for referencing such a case and posting here..........

iptba · 21-02-2010 4:00am

Cicero wrote: »

Neither do I, nor do I think anyone does...OP...if you can 'risk' posting a 3rd post, please elaborate on your rationale for referencing such a case and posting here..........

Lots of people complain about sentencing all the time on all sorts of issues including gender issues.

As I said, I believe gender could be a factor particularly in terms of the defendant but perhaps also in terms of the gender of the person who died.

I also think the issue of gender in sentencing is in general of interest (i.e. not just this case). A term, "chivalry justice", has been coined to describe the fact that gender can blame a part in sentencing. Men could perhaps complain about a lack of equality in this area.

As I mentioned, this issue could also be said to touch on the issue of domestic violence and whether domestic violence against men is taken seriously/dealt with in the same way that domestic violence against women is dealt with. And perhaps men should be speaking up more on the issue. Also, if a man feels threatened at home (not really the issue in this case but the heading was broader), there aren't that I know of many or any refuges for men in Ireland? I know there are a few in the UK. This can leave men in a difficult situation.

If she wasn't convicted of anything, it might be a different thing, maybe it shouldn't be discussed so much in a public forum then. But this person was convincted of manslaughter and the public can then discuss sentencing and matters relating to it, if they want.

I'm very interested in what could be called "men's issues" and looking at issues from a male perspective and the charter looks like such discussions are relevant.

I'm not sure why freedom of speech on such matters should be curtailed just because you might have a different perspective than mine. (Not sure if the "original" Cicero had anything to say on the issue of free speech?). I will keep an eye out to look for patterns in terms of threads where you question their right to exist in the GC to see if you could be said to be "picking" on this thead in an unfair manner or whether there is some unwritten aspect of the charter I'm missing.

iptba · 21-02-2010 4:17am

Giselle wrote: »

She had apparently suffered constant bullying growing up, and threats in the time immediately prior to the killing, from her brother.

So does that mean bringing a knife out (something which is being discouraged) and then using it to kill somebody is seen as (almost) acceptable? (which is the signal a suspended sentence gives out)

I imagine quite a few men have been bullied in their time but that wouldn't stop them spending some time in jail if they took it out and then stabbed somebody to death.

And as I said, this is not the first case where a light sentence has been given.

Cicero · 21-02-2010 6:27pm

iptba wrote: »

I will keep an eye out to look for patterns in terms of threads where you question their right to exist in the GC to see if you could be said to be "picking" on this thead in an unfair manner or whether there is some unwritten aspect of the charter I'm missing.

..off you go...personally I could think of more interesting things to do with my time than read over my previous posts but if it rocks your boat, then by all means..btw, if you have a good roast chicken recipe, there's a food forum that I post in that would be delighted to hear from you...:)

...in answer to your original post, I don't think we will get anywhere talking about cases that as you say, 'you haven't followed closely' ...I would prefer to see a thread created based on fact, not heresay..in addition, comparing one case of 'manslaughter' to another , wether male or female related, without the facts, will, in my opinion, only lead up a blind alley and no-one will be any the wiser...

iptba · 21-02-2010 8:13pm

Cicero wrote: »

...in answer to your original post, I don't think we will get anywhere talking about cases that as you say, 'you haven't followed closely' ...I would prefer to see a thread created based on fact, not heresay..in addition, comparing one case of 'manslaughter' to another , wether male or female related, without the facts, will, in my opinion, only lead up a blind alley and no-one will be any the wiser...

Who is to say that I am going to be the only supplier of facts in the thread? Other people can have specialist knowledge and know the information already; or have their interest piqued and then start reading up on the issue.

I have read things that appear to show there is an issue with regard to different sentencing based on gender in Irish courts. And I have read a bit on "chivalry justice" based on data from other countries.

This isn't a peer-reviewed journal - one should be allowed throw out observations and thoughts even if you personally don't find them of interest, it somehow makes you uncomfortable (e.g. you don't particularly like masculist opinions expressed too much http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism ?) or you think such discussions will only lead up a blind alley. You're not an all-powerful emperor, Cicero.

K-9 · 21-02-2010 8:38pm

iptba wrote: »

So does that mean bringing a knife out (something which is being discouraged) and then using it to kill somebody is seen as (almost) acceptable? (which is the signal a suspended sentence gives out)

I imagine quite a few men have been bullied in their time but that wouldn't stop them spending some time in jail if they took it out and then stabbed somebody to death.

And as I said, this is not the first case where a light sentence has been given.

That would be my worry in this case, it becomes acceptable and somebody with intent could use the manslaugther defence.

In her defence, there was a history of abuse, he was a violent heroin addict and she said he had given his girlfriend a beating and she went into the house. He said "you're next" and he had a mop in his hand! :eek:

If the genders were reversed, I'm not sure if a jury would be as understanding.

CDfm · 22-02-2010 7:24pm

K-9 wrote: »

That would be my worry in this case, it becomes acceptable and somebody with intent could use the manslaugther defence.
In her defence, there was a history of abuse, he was a violent heroin addict and she said he had given his girlfriend a beating and she went into the house. He said "you're next" and he had a mop in his hand! :eek:
If the genders were reversed, I'm not sure if a jury would be as understanding.

This is an interestining article from the Sunday Tribune
http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2009/mar/22/lady-injustice/

Studies in the USA show that when you exclude street crime and concentrate on domestic violence fatalities then are about equally split between genders.

I thought that even if you were using reasonable force to protect yourself that you have a duty to retreat. I will never understand the logic of this case..

Raze_them_all · 22-02-2010 7:49pm

iptba wrote: »

Although I do not follow the courts that closely, I have seen it pointed out that some women in Ireland have got light sentences for killing men.

To me, it looks like Caroline Brennan got a light sentence (5 years suspended) for killing her brother with a knife.

I think if the defendant had been a man or the dead person had been a woman, I think time it is quite likely that time would have been served.

People talk about domestic violence and that it should be taken seriously. Well, this could be said to be an example of domestic violence against a man.

It'd annoy you further to know that her female cousin also stabbed her fella through the lung(he lived) and got away with it too.

The place they are from is an utter kip.

CDfm · 22-02-2010 8:13pm

Raze_them_all wrote: »

It'd annoy you further to know that her female cousin also stabbed her fella through the lung(he lived) and got away with it too.

what sentence did she get ????????

Raze_them_all · 22-02-2010 8:16pm

CDfm wrote: »

what sentence did she get ????????

No idea I don't follow the lives of comer people, but she didn't serve any time cos she's still walking around the dump and it was the same month as yer one topped her brother

Cicero · 22-02-2010 8:30pm

iptba wrote: »

You're not an all-powerful emperor, Cicero.

..and never was, funnily enough..:eek:

The DPP said that they would not appeal a non-custodial sentence...does this not show that there was something more to this case than we might have read in the newspapers...a certain evaluation of the facts of the case to conclude that for this particular instance, a custodial sentence would not be appropriate?
...we usually do not get all the facts in the reporting of such cases in the media so it's much harder to determine the rationale..

..that is why I believe comparing manslaugher sentences between males and females may not necessarily derive any results that can lead to an accusation of gener bias in sentencing, which I believe this thread is about...if studies were done on something like clear cut drink/driving convictions, and if females in general were found to be given lighter sentences, then I think it would be cause for alarm...

amacachi · 22-02-2010 9:52pm

Cicero wrote: »

..and never was, funnily enough..:eek:

The DPP said that they would not appeal a non-custodial sentence...does this not show that there was something more to this case than we might have read in the newspapers...a certain evaluation of the facts of the case to conclude that for this particular instance, a custodial sentence would not be appropriate?

Not really, since we're talking about an imbalance in the justice system, which that would be evidence of, not evidence against.

Cicero · 22-02-2010 10:01pm

amacachi wrote: »

Not really, since we're talking about an imbalance in the justice system, which that would be evidence of, not evidence against.

.........or, on reflection, thirdly indeed,.. maybe not evidence at all for either side?....in the absence of accurate figures, it's simply a recorded stated decision..with no comparative data to go on, and no similar cases to judge it against, it stands simply as a 'decision'...nothing more..

CDfm · 22-02-2010 11:58pm

Cicero wrote: »

..that is why I believe comparing manslaugher sentences between males and females may not necessarily derive any results that can lead to an accusation of gener bias in sentencing,

If you look at the Sunday Tribune article it does indicate a bias

By comparison, the average length of time served by females for life sentences between 2001 and 2007 stood at just 11 years. The figures can be difficult to interpret and the figure for women 'lifers' is likely to have increased over the past year as a harder line has been adopted by the Department of Justice towards violent crime.

It also cites a number of cases like the Dolores O'Neill case, Franco Sacco's shooting dead (not cited), Dr Lynn Gibbs drowning her daughter.

These seem very odd not to be classed as a trend.

Cicero · 23-02-2010 12:14am

CDfm wrote: »

If you look at the Sunday Tribune article it does indicate a bias

It also cites a number of cases like the Dolores O'Neill case, Franco Sacco's shooting dead (not cited), Dr Lynn Gibbs drowning her daughter.

These seem very odd not to be classed as a trend.

...and...it also says the following:

in 2007 for instance, 37 men went to jail for killing somebody, convicted of either murder or manslaughter. Only a single female was found guilty of manslaughter.

..based on those statistics...how exactly is an arguement of gender bias supposed to be put forward...sorry guys...if I'm wrong I'm wrong, but my gut was that the original post was a troll (or at the very least a very badly put together arguement).....coupled with the personal abuse the OP has thown out at me, I couldn't care less where this thread goes....

CDfm · 23-02-2010 12:36am

I think the general point is that when women are sentenced the courts are more lenient. There is also the issue that there is a limit on the prison space available cause further early release.

Also, the statistics are based on convictions where both domestic violence and other crimes together.

To have a valid comparison you would need to compare numbers charged by gender to convictions by gender.

iptba · 23-02-2010 2:18pm

CDfm wrote: »

Raze_them_all wrote:

It'd annoy you further to know that her female cousin also stabbed her fella through the lung(he lived) and got away with it too.

what sentence did she get ????????

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1106/1224258193993.html

A YOUNG woman who stabbed a man in his 20s in the chest during a row at a house party, partly piercing his heart, has been given 240 hours of community service.

Again I think if a man had done this, particularly if he did it to a woman, he'd almost certainly be spending time inside.

iptba · 23-02-2010 2:21pm

Cicero wrote: »

..and never was, funnily enough..:eek:

The DPP said that they would not appeal a non-custodial sentence...does this not show that there was something more to this case than we might have read in the newspapers.

Not necessarily. If you take the Comerford case from over a decade ago, where she went downstairs, took a knife up and stabbed him to death when he slept, the jury were given the option of murder and manslaughter but wouldn't pick either. In that case, the DPP should have taken the case again I believe but instead dropped it. The DPP could well be biased too e.g. influenced by sob stories from women.

iptba · 23-02-2010 2:30pm

From an article in the Sunday Business Post (3/8/2008) - anonymous female barrister:

‘‘It is my experience that men are much more likely than women to go to jail for similar offences,” she says.

iptba · 23-02-2010 2:37pm

Saw this on another forum (p.ie) last year:

The Law Society reported a few years ago that women get on average 1/2 the sentence a man gets for the same crime and women are twice as likely to be found innocent. Can't find a link but I am sure the Law Society have a copy of the research. So I think the title is fine.

iptba · 23-02-2010 2:46pm

(Apologies for all the posts but I have a little time to spare now)

When Etta Ann Urdiales was murdered in Colorado, two completely different juries convicted two different people of the crime. Both juries believed there was only one murderer. One convicted Bobbie Hogan, a woman. The other convicted Jess Jacobs, a man.

She got 10 years in prison.

He was put to death.

This case is just one example of the discrimination men face in criminal courts throughout the United States.

According to Pradeep Ramanathan, vice president of the National Coalition of Free Men (NCFM), a volunteer, non-profit organization that has explored and addressed men's issues since 1976, "All the research clearly demonstrates that gender is the most significant biasing factor in determining whether or not someone will be charged, prosecuted, indicted and sentenced, as well as determining the severity of the sentence."

And Ramanathan is right.

Department of Justice figures show that being male increases a murderer's chance of receiving a death sentence by more than 20 times. And the data repeatedly confirms that men receive higher sentences than women for the exact same crime.

See: http://www.dvmen.org/dv-66.htm for full article

iptba · 23-02-2010 2:58pm

CDfm wrote: »

There is also the issue that there is a limit on the prison space available cause further early release.

Perhaps there are more recent figures somewhere.

1/3 Mountjoy female inmates freed
Thursday, 20 November 2008 10:09
One third of women sent to jail in Mountjoy are being freed because the prison is overcrowded.

New figures show almost every female prisoner serving a sentence of less than 20 months has been released early.

In recent weeks Ireland's prison population has exceeded 4,000 for the first time.

AdvertisementMore inmates than ever are female and serving long sentences for serious crimes, including murder.

As a result of this pressure on the system, beds for women serving shorter sentences are no longer available.

Figures released by the Department of Justice to Sinn Féin TD Aengus Ó'Snodaigh, show that a third of women at the women's jail in Mountjoy have been released because of overcrowding.

The women are officially on temporary release, but it is unlikely they will be recommitted to the jail, which is still operating 30% over capacity despite the early releases.

CDfm · 23-02-2010 3:36pm

Iptba - I hate to see a gender approach to any of these issues and I think this is what you are promoting.

I think that lots of the sentences handed down to guys for DV crime etc are fair.

There are some aspects of the system that are totally wrong and some areas horribly mismanaged.

Nasty_Girl · 23-02-2010 4:54pm

Man kills drug addict man

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0314/sutcliffej.html

Guilty of Manslaughter, suspended sentence.

Perhaps you get a suspended sentence if you stab a drug addict.

This guy killed his Dad and got a suspended sentence,

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2009/0430/ireland/six-years-suspended-for-manslaughter-of-father-408911.html

So perhaps it is the gender of the victim and not the perpetrator that has the influence.

But then this evil woman got a few years in jail for manslaughter.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/womans-sentence-increased-in-taxi-driver-stabbing-case-446312.html

Maybe some Law student will do a proper study

iptba · 23-02-2010 5:12pm

CDfm wrote: »

Iptba - I hate to see a gender approach to any of these issues and I think this is what you are promoting.

I do not see why I should not be allowed point out that I think there may be a gender equality issue, whatever preferences you (or other individuals) might have.

iptba · 23-02-2010 5:26pm

Nasty_Girl wrote: »

Maybe some Law student will do a proper study

As I mentioned before, there appears to have been a report from the Law Society on the issue a few years back if one goes by one poster to another forum. Perhaps others might know.

I would certainly welcome more research on it. (Although to be honest I have little confidence in an awful lot of gender researchers in Ireland).

I do know there have been studies in other countries:

"One study, published in Justice Quarterly in 1986, examined 181,197 felonies in California and found that, for the same crime, being male increased the chance of incarceration by 165 percent. Being black, in comparison, increased the chance of incarceration by 19 percent.

Another study, published in Crime & Delinquency in 1989, examined non-accomplice crimes and factored together the number of charges, convicted offenses, prior felony convictions, as well as the race, age, work history and family situation of the accused and found that "gender differences, favoring women, are more often found than race differences, favoring whites."

In yet another study, published in the International Journal of the Sociology of Law, researchers Mathew Zingraff and Randall Thomson found that being male increases sentence lengths more than any other discriminatory variable.

The bias applies to victims as well as the accused. When Edward Glaeser of Harvard University and Bruce Sacerdote of Dartmouth College examined 2,800 homicide cases randomly drawn from 33 urban counties by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, they found that killing a female instead of a male increased sentences by 40.6 percent. Killing a white instead of a black, in comparison, increased sentences by 26.8 percent."

Gender, going to jail, male victims, etc.: the Caroline Brennan case, etc.

Comments