Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Bruthal · 18-03-2012 11:19am

alastair wrote: »

To the fact you don't know what you're talking about? 'Road Tax'?

Home value = equity you say?

Freddie59 · 18-03-2012 11:20am

robbie7730 wrote: »

Home value = equity you say?

Does that mean if you're in negative equity then the Government have to give YOU money?

dxhound2005 · 18-03-2012 11:54am

Celia Larkin has a piece on the Household Charge in the Sunday Independent. It's a bit of a rambling piece full of scaremongering. She says she is at the pin of her collar having to account for every cent but she will obey the law.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/take-away-the-fear-and-well-pay-this-tax-3053804.html

Like most, I am to the pin of my collar with every cent accounted for. I appreciate that services need to be paid for and abhor the actions of some of our elected representatives in inciting people to break the law. It's populist and irresponsible.

Just as an aside it's interesting to see the poll she refers to is suggesting 58% compliance which is exactly the figure I predicted way back.

Slick50 · 18-03-2012 1:01pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The new supply from Lough Muckno in Co Monaghan cost IR£20 million in 1990 according to this report.

http://www.argus.ie/news/no-relief-in-Swater-crux-2240163.html

That would have to have been a special grant from central government. Since 1977 local authorities have had to depend much more on the Local Government Fund administered by central government following their loss of domestic rates.

However, up until the mid 1970s at least, Local Authorities commanded greater discretion over their revenue generating capabilities. For instance, in 1976 local authorities generated sixty-two per cent of their revenues locally and were only dependent on government grants for thirty-eight per cent of their overall revenue. The situation changed dramatically following the removal of the onus of paying domestic rates, a liability which was transferred to central government. The subsequent decade witnessed a very high degree of reliance on central funding by local authorities. By 1982 local authorities were dependent on government funding for sixty-seven per cent of their revenue with other sources and rates making up thirty-three percent.

This system was always going to leave local authorities short since central government were using the same sources of tax (mainly PAYE) for all other spending as well. Which led to local authorities having to introduce bin charges which eventually led to the privitisation of waste collection. The failed water charges of the 1990's were another attempt to plug the expenditure gap.

The Household Charge will go into the Local Government Fund so you could say it is ringfenced from the bankers. But other moneys which would have gone into the Fund may now go to the bankers so that potentially makes all taxation unjust and unfair (if paying bankers and bondholders is the criterion).

Regardless of the bankers, spending exceeds taxation and necessitates borrowing. So a new tax which for years ahead will produce a guaranteed stream of income will help to narrow the gap. On the expenditure side one of the big ticket items is Child Benefit. Most likely some of the people here complaining about having to pay €100 are getting €1700 tax free for each of their children. That could be done away with or reduced to achieve considerable savings.

That's an impressive looking response, but short on facts, other than the weather report from 1980 (in your link). You have presumed where the financing came from, and presented it as fact. Plus a lot of party line bluster.

The point I was making is, it was done before the government started telling us we have to pay a property tax, to pay for this sort of thing, because "we can't expect to continue to get these things for free". We never have.

tayto lover · 18-03-2012 1:02pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Celia Larkin has a piece on the Household Charge in the Sunday Independent. It's a bit of a rambling piece full of scaremongering. She says she is at the pin of her collar having to account for every cent but she will obey the law.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/take-away-the-fear-and-well-pay-this-tax-3053804.html

Like most, I am to the pin of my collar with every cent accounted for. I appreciate that services need to be paid for and abhor the actions of some of our elected representatives in inciting people to break the law. It's populist and irresponsible.

Just as an aside it's interesting to see the poll she refers to is suggesting 58% compliance which is exactly the figure I predicted way back.

Maybe you are all tarred with the same brush -
Fine Gael = Celia Larkin = Bertie = Fianna Fail = same policies

alastair · 18-03-2012 2:13pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

And your support of the notion to tax already shrinking wage packets is better? sweet Jesus. OK - you are in charge of a household budget. You are earning €32k a year, but you're spending €50k a year. You're borrowing €18k every year. And into the bargain two lads down the road backed a horse which lost, and YOU are handed the debt?

Are you beginning to grasp this now? The 'delusion', as you put it, of 'cutting the dole and PS payments to poverty levels' show how out of touch you and people like you actually are.

I'm quite clear on your view - it's just that its a nonsense. Otherwise well done!

dxhound2005 · 18-03-2012 2:13pm

Slick50 wrote: »

That's an impressive looking response, but short on facts, other than the weather report from 1980 (in your link). You have presumed where the financing came from, and presented it as fact. Plus a lot of party line bluster.

The point I was making is, it was done before the government started telling us we have to pay a property tax, to pay for this sort of thing, because "we can't expect to continue to get these things for free". We never have.

It is difficult to find facts from the old days about these issues. But to keep things parochial to Dundalk the €63 million sewerage works was funded by the EU Structural Fund and the National Development Plan if that is helpful to the discussion.

http://www.argus.ie/news/dundalk-sewerage-964612.html

But the ongoing deficit in local funding cannot be disputed. Again to take Louth as an example the central government grant was further cut by over €400,000 in 2009 and the council faced a deficit of €4.7 million in 2010, the latest figures I can find. The ideal solution might be a return to domestic rates with the model operating in the North there as a template.

http://www.argus.ie/news/council-face-7m-income-shortfall-1836118.html

alastair · 18-03-2012 2:16pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

Home value = equity you say?

Not quite - but the reality is that the vast majority of homeowners have equity in their property - and the majority of the rest will recoup equity in the short to mid term. It's also worth pointing out that negative equity for most homeowners is an irrelevence - they're not going anywhere any time soon. Property is a nice locked down wealth, eminently suited to a progressive taxation structure.

Bruthal · 18-03-2012 2:50pm

alastair wrote: »

Not quite - but the reality is that the vast majority of homeowners have equity in their property - and the majority of the rest will recoup equity in the short to mid term.

So then, its not the equity they are taxing, its the future equity the owners will have, for the negative equity ones. The vast majority thing does not come into it, equity has no bearing in this.

A bit different than what you said a couple of days ago, here it is...

alastair wrote: »

Even with negative equity on a mortgage, there's actual equity in the property.

.....its not mortgages that have negative equity, its the property because of the lien the mortgage has on it.

It's also worth pointing out that negative equity for most homeowners is an irrelevence - they're not going anywhere any time soon. Property is a nice locked down wealth

Is it? I see. So the wealth in an equity of -€100k is? Funny the other day you said home owners were the target because they had equity.
But now you might agree they are the target because they are easy targets Why easy? Because they are locked down. Quite where you see wealth in the equity of a home im still not sure.

eminently suited to a progressive taxation structure.

Suitable, as the owners are prtacticaly as locked down as their homes. And it is purely for this reason, that home owners are the target.

It is not for equity like you claimed the other day, as equity has no bearing. Its just another source of tax from the people already paying them, not from evaders and diesel launderers like has been suggested in this thread.

alastair wrote: »

Such as?
Negative equity is a red herring btw - you still pay motor tax even when depreciation has reduced the value of your car to a fraction of what you paid. The future (tiered) household charge will be on the basis of market value - not what you paid originally.

Another example of you`re understanding of equity. Motor tax is nothing to do with the value of a car, or its equity. Nor is motor tax paid for owning a car.

Freddie59 · 18-03-2012 2:52pm

alastair wrote: »

I'm quite clear on your view - it's just that its a nonsense. Otherwise well done!

Nonsense? From someone who appears not to have a grasp of even basic household economics? Keep digging pal!:D That view is actually the reality facing us. Go on - admit it! You're a Government party rep. You have to be. Nothing else can explain your 'outlook'.

Freddie59 · 18-03-2012 2:56pm

alastair wrote: »

Not quite - but the reality is that the vast majority of homeowners have equity in their property - and the majority of the rest will recoup equity in the short to mid term. It's also worth pointing out that negative equity for most homeowners is an irrelevence - they're not going anywhere any time soon. Property is a nice locked down wealth, eminently suited to a progressive taxation structure.

Hmmm. An irrelevance.:rolleyes: This just gets better and better....this 'property' is people's homes. Homes which did not cost the Government one cent to provide. And people are penalised for this.

While the ones they provided housing to are exempt.:rolleyes: But you keep conveniently overlooking that one. Understandable though given your complete lack of comprehension of the issue at hand.

tayto lover · 18-03-2012 3:21pm

To those who support paying the Household Tax. If when they bring in the Property Tax your home is valued at say 200k, do you think this charge will rise significantly when the economy "takes off" again as Noonan is predicting ?
Your income might remain much as it is now but your property value will increase and your Property Tax might treble in no time.

Bruthal · 18-03-2012 3:24pm

tayto lover wrote: »

To those who support paying the Household Tax. If when they bring in the Property Tax your home is valued at say 200k, do you think this charge will rise significantly when the economy "takes off" again as Noonan is predicting ?
Your income might remain much as it is now but your property value will increase and your Property Tax might treble in no time.

Do you not launder diesel on sundays:)

They will certainly revise the tax tiers down if the prices were to fall even more.

gerryo777 · 18-03-2012 4:03pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It is difficult to find facts from the old days about these issues. But to keep things parochial to Dundalk the €63 million sewerage works was funded by the EU Structural Fund and the National Development Plan if that is helpful to the discussion.

http://www.argus.ie/news/dundalk-sewerage-964612.html

But the ongoing deficit in local funding cannot be disputed. Again to take Louth as an example the central government grant was further cut by over €400,000 in 2009 and the council faced a deficit of €4.7 million in 2010, the latest figures I can find. The ideal solution might be a return to domestic rates with the model operating in the North there as a template.

http://www.argus.ie/news/council-face-7m-income-shortfall-1836118.html

Can you not see why there is a deficit in local council funding?
Are you blind or have you selective vision?
The reason for the deficits in council funding is because the amount they receive from central government is being reduced yearly.
It is being reduced because our government insists on paying off unsecured secondary bondholders in our bankrupt banks.

One way or the other this household tax is going to pay off gamblers and speculators.

DON'T REGISTER / DON'T PAY

dvpower · 18-03-2012 4:08pm

tayto lover wrote: »

To those who support paying the Household Tax. If when they bring in the Property Tax your home is valued at say 200k, do you think this charge will rise significantly when the economy "takes off" again as Noonan is predicting ?
Your income might remain much as it is now but your property value will increase and your Property Tax might treble in no time.

A property tax would likely have a moderating effect on property prices.

gerryo777 · 18-03-2012 4:08pm

alastair wrote: »

Not quite - but the reality is that the vast majority of homeowners have equity in their property - and the majority of the rest will recoup equity in the short to mid term. It's also worth pointing out that negative equity for most homeowners is an irrelevence - they're not going anywhere any time soon. Property is a nice locked down wealth, eminently suited to a progressive taxation structure.

The best thing they could do for people like yourself would be to have a voluntary household tax, that way you could pay it yourself and not be bothering the rest of us with your bull****e posts.

later12 · 18-03-2012 4:32pm

My folks say they won't pay it. I guess because they already pay a lot of money for things like their own water supply, their own household waste disposal, the upkeep of their own road and land, and other facilities. So there seems to be no logical indication of what exactly they are paying for.

They also had to pay rates up until the late 1970s which almost ruined them, twice, because they were in the position of having inherited a barely habitable family home and didn't want it abandoned. Domestic rates were a devil on the back of many Irish rural households at that time, and I suppose it just brings back some very bad memories.

Freddie59 · 18-03-2012 4:34pm

dvpower wrote: »

A property tax would likely have a moderating effect on property prices.

And how precisely have you reached this conclusion?

Freddie59 · 18-03-2012 4:37pm

later12 wrote: »

My folks say they won't pay it. I guess because they already pay a lot of money for things like their own water supply, their own household waste disposal, the upkeep of their own road and land, and other facilities. So there seems to be no logical indication of what exactly they are paying for.

They also had to pay rates up until the late 1970s which almost ruined them, twice, because they were in the position of having inherited a barely habitable family home and didn't want it abandoned. Domestic rates were a devil on the back of many Irish rural households at that time, and I suppose it just brings back some very bad memories.

I wonder what would be considered now if they hadn't abolished rates back them? Double the amount? Rates themselves are ridiculous. Business being punished for, essentially, providing employment and getting nothing in return - except a bill.

The reality is that this country needs to cut its cloth (there is only this much coming in - ergo we can only spend that amount) in order to reduce and eliminate unnecessary borrowing. Our civil servants and Pubic Sector is one of the highest paid and most overstaffed anywhere. it will have to be tackled and soon. Hopefully the IMF will take the axe to it and its "entitlements".

dvpower · 18-03-2012 4:59pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

I wonder what would be considered now if they hadn't abolished rates back them? Double the amount? Rates themselves are ridiculous. Business being punished for, essentially, providing employment and getting nothing in return - except a bill.

Business are currently being punished with commercial rates (which is just a property tax for businesses). Businesses are forever complaining that they are bearing the bulk of the costs for local authority services.

Cantona's Collars · 18-03-2012 7:09pm

Looks like the government are wanting to change data protection & privacy laws to find out who hasn't paid.They claim that over 280k have paid so far according to RTE News.

I got a serious hint of massaged figures from the report just for the sake of positive spin,you'd swear by the tone of the pay up campaign this charge is a good thing which we all should pay.Fuck 'em,I still won't pay.

mikom · 18-03-2012 7:31pm

dvpower wrote: »

A property tax would likely have a moderating effect on property prices.

Worked in the U.S.............

Biggins · 18-03-2012 7:39pm

zerks wrote: »

Looks like the government are wanting to change data protection & privacy laws to find out who hasn't paid.They claim that over 280k have paid so far according to RTE News.

I got a serious hint of massaged figures from the report just for the sake of positive spin,you'd swear by the tone of the pay up campaign this charge is a good thing which we all should pay.Fuck 'em,I still won't pay.

Let be honest, they have totally fcuked this thing up!

* They have failed to proper inform the public about the national tax.
They failed to supply to each household the proper printed information about the said tax.
(They have relied instead on TV and the internet in words, feck all printed to every home!)

* Apparently the company they hired to inform the public by mass documentation - has gone bankrupt and so they just dropped the idea!

* They have decided to raid information from state bodies if possible - then discovered that some of the public ARE actually aware they might be breaking data-protection laws - so guess what, now we have this grovelling edict today that "O' we are going to change the laws to suit us!"

* They have underestimated the unwillingness of the people not wishing to pay the "we screw-up - you pay" tax.

* Now today even three of their own FG's TD have come out and criticised FG, Enda and Gilmore over the whole bloody fiasco!

Its a right fcuk-up from start to finish!

...But that won't stop them from doing whatever the fcuk they feel like doing and continue to further make a balls of it!

Don't tell me they are not Fianna Fail and The Greens all over again - just in different names, (too) high wages, perks and expensive suits!

mconigol · 18-03-2012 7:43pm

gurramok wrote: »

The no posters do have a habit of checking the history behind yes posters. Maybe paranoia, I do not know.

Still sore? :rolleyes:

You called other posters here hypocrites thus opening up your own history to examination.

Unfortunately for you you were caught out.

mikom · 18-03-2012 7:46pm

Biggins wrote: »

Let be honest, they have totally fcuked this thing up!

* They have failed to proper inform the public about the national tax.
They failed to supply to each household the proper printed information about the said tax.
(They have relied instead on TV and the internet in words, feck all printed to every home!)

* Apparently the company they hired to inform the public by mass documentation - has gone bankrupt and so they just dropped the idea!

* They have decided to raid information from state bodies if possible - then discovered that some of the public ARE actually aware they might be breaking data-protection laws - so guess what, now we have this grovelling edict today that "O' we are going to change the laws to suit us!"

* They have underestimated the unwillingness of the people not wishing to pay the "we screw-up - you pay" tax.

* Now today even three of their own FG's TD have come out and criticised FG, Enda and Gilmore over the whole bloody fiasco!

Its a right fcuk-up from start to finish!

...But that won't stop them from doing whatever the fcuk they feel like doing and continue to further make a balls of it!

Don't tell me they are not Fianna Fail and The Greens all over again - just in different names, (too) high wages, perks and expensive suits!

These are the lads then that are going out to Europe to negotiate deals for the country.........
If the fuckers fell into a barrel of tits they'd come up sucking their thumb.

Useless.

Bruthal · 18-03-2012 7:49pm

mconigol wrote: »

Still sore? :rolleyes:

You called other posters here hypocrites thus opening up your own history to examination.

Unfortunately for you you were caught out.

Im still waiting on the results of this.....

gurramok wrote: »

robbie7730 wrote: »

You seem to be on a big defensive there, mr law abiding citizen.

Do we have to search through all your post history too?

Potential-Monke · 18-03-2012 7:51pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

Our civil servants and Pubic Sector is one of the highest paid and most overstaffed anywhere. it will have to be tackled and soon. Hopefully the IMF will take the axe to it and its "entitlements".

Does that include taking more money off me even though i earn take home €298.61 per week for a 40 hour week including nights and weekends and from which i still have to pay my mortgage and bills?

If you're going to attack the public sector please at least specify those in the public service who are on the high wages...

Still not going to pay it as i haven't received a bill. When i receive a bill, i'll pay it.

apache6 · 18-03-2012 7:52pm

Originally Posted by tayto lover View Post
To those who support paying the Household Tax. If when they bring in the Property Tax your home is valued at say 200k, do you think this charge will rise significantly when the economy "takes off" again as Noonan is predicting ?
Your income might remain much as it is now but your property value will increase and your Property Tax might treble in no time.

This idea is badly flawed in that you say "when the economy "takes off" again as Noonan is predicting "?

more of an "if" than a "when" at best not for a very long time say 15 years probably longer.

dxhound2005 · 18-03-2012 7:55pm

Mr Hogan's interview is here.

http://www.rte.ie/news/thisweek//

It seems the government is standing fast and there is no sign of the legislation being abolished. He mentioned something which I read about a while back. Some people who have run up penalties of €1100 for non payment of NPPR are now coming forward trying to resolve their situation.

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/category/nppr

Biggins · 18-03-2012 8:04pm

I think we are coming close to that time when the public has finally, really had enough of the lies, spin and bullschite from our government weekly - oft times daily now.

I could be wrong and sometimes am, but I get the feeling from speaking to a lot of the public and business people daily that 'the final straw' is being reached.

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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