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How can I receive Soarsat and 28.2 east with one Dish

13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭excollier


    I reckon, especially in rural areas, that most who need Saorsat will just put up a second dish for price and simplicity.
    After all, who is to stop them?
    Multifeed dishes are all very well, and if you are technically minded, they are a great thing. I will be trying out a TD110 myself for the same purpose at the weekend.
    We know, from Watty's dish and banie01 that 28.2e - 9e is easily achievable, even on a TD88, I tried it myself with success, but will Ka-Sat work as well at that offset? Who knows yet?
    But who wants to spend extra on all that? A second, 80cm dish will be cheaper, quicker, and won't offend anyone in the countryside.
    Now in urban areas, it might be different, especially if it's to the front of the house.
    Just a thought


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,325 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Triax are doing a trade show shortly and one of the items listed for viewing is a TD 78 Dish with KA and KU band on a twin feed

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭excollier


    Then we will wait and see what sort of arc spread it has, will be interesting.
    It may put an end to speculation on dish size here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,519 ✭✭✭Zardoz


    zg3409 wrote: »
    Back to topic...

    I have been looking at the options for combined Saorsat and Freesat on the one dish. My main problem/interest is mounting two LNBs on the one dish.

    One of the issues I believe will be the strength of the arm if extended from focal point out 20 degrees and say an octo freesat LNB is fitted.

    I know the size of dish recommended for Saorsat is not confirmed but I am assuming it is going to be the prime focus of an 80cm dish. The gain of an 80cm dish is approx 37.1dB at 11.7Ghz (Triax TD88).

    I would encourage people to WAIT before purchasing dishes until we know for certain.

    I have been considering what size dish is needed for Freesat at it seems to be 60cm prime focus for most of Ireland (except for extreme south west) as far as I understand.

    So making the above assumptions I did the sums on mounting a bracket on an 80cm dish 20 degrees off centre, for Freesat. My Maths says it's not a good enough signal.

    I also considered larger dishes, multifocus dishes (like the Wavefrontier, "Triax unique", Maximum e85 Multifocus Dish).

    I considered strength of the mounting/arm/bracket along with dish gain at focal, -20 degrees, and both saorsat and freesat mounted 10 degrees each side of focal point.

    My aim:
    37.1dB gain for 9 East Saorsat (at 11.7Ghz)
    35.8dB gain for 28.2 Freesat

    Strong mounting etc, size, cost

    I based most of my sums on this document
    http://www.catec.ro/catalog/Triax%20TD%20Unique.pdf

    and standard dish gains:
    54cm 34.2
    64cm 35.8
    78cm 37.1
    88cm 38.8
    110cm 40.2

    192053.jpg

    It suggests when 20 degrees off prime focus an 80cm dish is down by -4.5dB, so the Freesat will see a dish of equivalent of 37.1 - 4.5 = 32.6dB = smaller than 54cm dish which is no good.

    We could start to mount the Saorsat LNB off focus on an 80cm dish but so far we don't know if this is too weak.

    So say we go for a 88cm dish and put Ka in prime and Freesat offset -20. Freesat gets 38.8 -4.5 (approx) = 34.3 = 54cm (slightly too small)

    So say we go for a 88cm dish and put Ka in offset to one side by 10 degrees and Freesat offset 10. Freesat gets 38.8 -1 (approx) = 37.8 = 80cm (strong) Saorsat also gets an equivalent of 80cm dish. So it looks as if an ordinary 88cm dish with both LNBs half offset is good enough for most places.

    Now having read the triax TD multibar installation manual
    "Please note that the total weight of the Multiblock with LNBs must not exceed 1.1 kgs." It seems as if this is not ideal for lots, and lots of LNBs and might be fiddly to set up. It also adds about 20 euro to the total price of dish +bracket.

    Next up is the triax unique. This claims a equivalent dish size of 88cm over a 30 degree arc. The mounting seems a lot stronger and each LNB can be moved independantly which is important for more than two LNB setups. However this dish is much larger than an 88cm dish being 100 x 111 cm. It is also relatively expensive and not in stock most places.

    The Maximum e85 Multifocus Dish was for sale from one supplier at under 100 euro retail. It's looks a bit weaker than the "triax unique" but it is specially designed for multi LNB unlike say the TD88. It gives the equivant of an 80cm across a 30 degree arc (works up to 50)so it will work fine. Its size is 75 x 90 cm so around the same as a TD88. It also has the option of 3° / 4,3° spaced LNB holder for close sats.

    I'm going to dismiss the Wavefrontier due to size, looks and cost. It is more a hobbiest dish, for very closely spaced satellites. It will work though.

    I don't know how any of these dishes are for strength/corrosion resistance.


    In summary, wait for the moment, but if a 80cm prime focus dish is recommended for Saorsat then my sums say an 88cm is needed for combined Saorsat and Freesat.

    Comments please
    Very interesting post ,lots of good info.

    The Loss vs Offset graph for the TD78 is one I have been trying to get my hands on for a good while.
    I'm surprised that the loss up to +/- 10 degrees is so little ,~1db ,that seems alot lower than I have read elsewhere.
    In fact the performance of the TD78 according to that graph is superior to that of the T85 .
    http://www.satshop24.de/Messprotokoll.pdf
    The T85 has a loss of 0.4db @ 5 degrees ,1db @ 10degrees and 2.1db @16 degrees offset.

    The T85 does not allow 3 degree spacing ,the lnb holders are too wide,4.5 degree is the minimum possible without modification.

    Enclosed is a graph of the performance of the T90 over an offset range,its a good performer.

    The Triax Unique looks like a rip off to be honest,its extremely expensive and large ,a T90 would be a far better option (although its a very heavy dish@14kg )


  • Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭ISAA


    All,

    I have done some tests here in Donegal.

    Equipment :

    Triax 78
    Triax L.N.B
    Ka band L.N.B
    Triax extension feed bar.

    Ariva 120 receiver.

    Results in heavy rain today.

    c4 transponder on 28 degs 75 db, MER 10.4 db, the same as a 54cm triax.

    KA band sat 72 db, never checked MER, will tomorrow.

    Check our ISAA TV channel for a video. better one over the next few days.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/isaatv


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭zg3409


    192183.jpg

    > the same as a 54cm triax

    Gerry so the maths seems to match the reality. The 28.2 LNB would need to be closer to the centre before it would get a reasonable signal?


  • Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭ISAA


    With the testing I did, the results where :

    28 LNB far right of arm, signal 75 db on a weak TP back of dish.
    9. LNB left side of main signal 72 db,

    All channels on Astra prefect with 20 metres of wf 100 cable inc diq switch, signal on RX excellent, but we all are aware saorsat have not issues signal levels required yet. So I' m still messing about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭Cesium Clock


    great stuff,

    but could you change the polarity of the video, me necks killing me :D:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭ISAA


    I turned my laptop on it's side


  • Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭ISAA


    Also Aligment was very fine on 9 east, as the triax dish is 11/12 ghz and just a slight touch on the side and the signal dropped, so would have to be a good/excellent install. So no lidi dishes then.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭Markdub2000


    I would rekon that anything shy of a 1 to 1.2m dish would struggle to cope with rain fade!
    Along with your weight, you should consider the wind load on your bracket, i had one a few years back and it was useless


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭Apogee


    I had a mess about with a dual setup also. The central LNBF is almost on 15/16E, but really only there as a placeholder, with the Saorsat LNBF offset about 5/6 degrees, and the Astra 2 LNBF offset about 13/14 degrees.

    front.jpg

    There is a drop of about 2.7dBuV from having the Saorsat LNBF on central focus vs 5 deg offset.

    Central:
    spec4.jpg

    Offset:
    offset_spectrum.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭Apogee


    For anyone contemplating a dual 28E/9E setup, this multifocus dish may be a better option than a standard parabolic.

    SatConn E-85 Multifocus Antenna €49.90:

    http://www.ebay.ie/itm/SatConn-E-85-Multifocus-Antenne-5-Halter-anthrazit-/130614302197?pt=Sat_Anlagen&hash=item1e693815f5


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭zg3409


    Interesting. The same crowd:

    http://www.srt-versand.de

    under "multifeedantennen" also has the Maximum E85 for 15 euro more.

    This link might work:
    http://www.srt-versand.de/index.php?sid=fb9a155a0858be216869e278affaac38&cl=alist&cnid=cd44742c9a559e6d4.50459809

    I wonder what is the difference between the two in terms of quality etc.

    They also have a different colour of the same dish. I am still recommending to people to WAIT until we know the dish size needed.

    SatConn E-85 multi-focus antenna + rail + 5 multifeed holder anthracite
    SatConn E-85 "Multi-Focus" anthracite
    Including multi-feed antenna rail bracket and 5

    The multi-talented multi-feed antennas, this antenna allows the installation
    of five or more LNBs on the supplied multi-feed rail.
    This antenna can be adjusted in all directions, even turned sideways
    be. (See back of the antenna in the picture)
    The Refklektor and all other parts are made of galvanized steel and
    are also protected with a polyester coating, as corrosion can simply nothing more.
    Excellent build quality, very high
    Fitting accuracy of the processed items.


    SatConn E-85 Multifocus Antenne

    Specifications and features:

    - Make / Model: E-85 SatConn multifocal (48 °)
    - Material and Coating: Steel (galvanisert) polyester paint
    - Application: Multi-feed offset antenna for Ku-band
    - Antenna Height: 71 cm x 91 cm
    - Frequency range: 10.7 to 12.75 GHz
    - Gain (0 ° position at 12.5 GHz): 38.7 dB
    - Multi-Feed Range: / -24 ° (48 °)
    - F / D Ratio: 0.65
    - Focus Length: 566 mm
    - Mount Type: AZ / EL
    - Elevation: 10 ° to 65 °
    - Azimuth: 360 °
    - Wind load: 80 km / h
    - Wind load (critical): 200 km / h
    - Mast mounting: 38 to 60 mm
    - Operating temperature: -40 ° C to 60 ° C. Included LNB holder: 5
    - Color: light gray
    - Shipping Weight: 14.3 kg
    - Astra, Hotbird and TÜRKSAT no problem

    "The better alternative to the T 90, about 10% more power, easier to assemble!"
    Supplied with multi-feed rail with 5 LNB holders.
    MAXIMUM I-85 multibeam antenna, light-gray
    Original "MAXIMAUM" E-85 "Multi-Focus"
    Including multi-feed antenna rail bracket and 5

    The multi-talented multi-feed antennas, this antenna allows the installation
    of five or more LNBs on the supplied multi-feed rail.
    This antenna can be adjusted in all directions, even turned sideways
    be. (See back of the antenna in the picture)
    The Refklektor and all other parts are made of galvanized steel and
    are also protected with a polyester coating, as corrosion can simply nothing more.
    Excellent build quality, very high
    Fitting accuracy of the processed items.



    Specifications and features:

    - Make / Model: "MAXIMAUM" E-85 Multi-Focus (48 °)
    - Material and Coating: Steel (galvanisert) polyester paint
    - Application: Multi-feed offset antenna for Ku-band
    - Antenna Height: 71 cm x 91 cm
    - Frequency range: 10.7 to 12.75 GHz
    - Gain (0 ° position at 12.5 GHz): 38.7 dB
    - Multi-Feed Range: / -24 ° (48 °)
    - F / D Ratio: 0.65
    - Focus Length: 566 mm
    - Mount Type: AZ / EL
    - Elevation: 10 ° to 65 °
    - Azimuth: 360 °
    - Wind load: 80 km / h
    - Wind load (critical): 200 km / h
    - Mast mounting: 38 to 60 mm
    - Operating temperature: -40 ° C to 60 ° C. Included LNB holder: 5
    - Color: light gray
    - Shipping Weight: 14.3 kg
    - Astra, Hotbird and TÜRKSAT no problem

    "The better alternative to the T 90, about 10% more power, easier to assemble!"
    Winner with "VERY GOOD" price-performance ratio in the TELE-SATELLITE.
    Supplied with multi-feed rail with 5 LNB holders.
    (LNBs are not included!)


    So the specs of both dishes seem a paper copy, it seems to be the same item, with a different brand name?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭Apogee


    There's a strong possibility they're all being knocked out by the same factory in Taiwan or China.

    The Jonsa looks a lot like the Maximum, which is turn looks a lot like the SatConn.

    http://www.eubnet.de/jonsa-maximum-e85-multifocus-48-sat-dish-p-554.html

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67044038#post67044038


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭zg3409


    193136.jpg
    The ... picture is of a Triax TD78 dish in Cork, Ireland with a standard Universal LNB positioned for Astra 28E (BBC ITV CH4 Etc.) and an Inverto Ka band LNB positioned for RTE/Saorsat reception. Both are mounted on a modified Triax LNB Multiholder. Both LNBs are connected to a 2-way Technomate DiSEqC switch which feeds a FTA HD Satellite Receiver so RTE, BBC etc all on the one box ! NB.

    From:
    http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Inverto-White-Twin-Ka-Band-LNB-Saorsat-Compatible-HD-Ready-/190636198893?pt=UK_ConEle_SatCableFreeview_RL&hash=item2c62cd8bed

    Based on my maths, the signal to for Astra 28E will not be strong enough?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭zg3409


    The same guy has a listing for a TV with a satellite tuner built in:
    Walker Technology Products Ltd., was founded in July 2005 to supply a range of televisions especially designed for the Irish market. The two directors who set the business up were previously senior executives with Mitsubishi Electric involved in the sales and marketing of the very successful market leading range of Black Diamond televisions. The Walker branded range of LCD televisions are sourced from the same factory that manufactured for Mitsubishi Electric and other major Japanese brands for distribution in Europe.
    Therefore insuring that Walker LCD's offer the latest features, excellent quality and terrific value for money.


    ALL IRELAND FREE SHIPPING BY COURIER

    This is NOT an MPEG4 Saorview compatible TV and requires connection to a dish for satellite function.

    WHEN CONNECTED TO A SATELLITE DISH THIS SET CAN RECEIVE FTA SATELLITE CHANNELS IN STANDARD AND HIGH DEFINITION EG BBC HD, ITV HD, CHANNEL 4, FILM4 ETC

    It is ALSO ideal for connection to UPC, X-Box, Playstation, Blu-Ray, DVD, HDMI, SKY Receivers and Analogue TV.

    WP32SAT-HD
    HD READY
    2 x HDMI
    INTEGRATED SATELLITE RECEIVER

    SCART CONNECTION
    PIANO BLACK FINISH
    VESA WALL MOUNTABLE
    1000 PAGE TEXT
    PC VGA INPUT
    HEADPHONE SOCKET

    From:
    http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190593256937

    I have asked him does it include DiSEqC. If so this might be a good "bedroom" solution for Saorsat/FreeSat ish setup.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭zg3409


    Tony wrote: »
    Triax are doing a trade show shortly and one of the items listed for viewing is a TD 78 Dish with KA and KU band on a twin feed

    Did the trade show happen? Was the KA LNB mounted in the centre, or half each side? Was the adapter bracket modified or drilled?

    Was it the same as the Cork photo?


  • Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭ISAA


    Follow the KD electronics link : http://www.isaa.tv


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭zg3409


    ISAA wrote: »
    Follow the KD electronics link : http://www.isaa.tv

    I knew nagging would work

    So 29th of Feb it is.

    193189.jpg
    From:
    http://www.isaa.tv/?page_id=1210


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  • Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭PressTheButton


    zg3409 wrote: »

    Looks like it will be unveiled on Wednesday 29th February - first ‘Saorview’ approved HD Combi receiver: Triax TSC114 (bottom right of official flyer).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,286 ✭✭✭liamtech


    Looks like it will be unveiled on Wednesday 29th February - first ‘Saorview’ approved HD Combi receiver: Triax TSC114 (bottom right of official flyer).

    Very Important news at this stage - first confirmed Combi for Satellite and saorview, and first Saorsat system - Obviously we need more information such as a specification flyer -

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭ISAA


    New video of saorsat setup, with dual feed on ISAATV channel.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/isaatv?ob=0&feature=results_main


  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭Digital Satellite TV


    For anyone who's thinking of it, here's a step by step vid for combining saorsat and freesat channels using a 2x1 diseqc switch



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭zg3409


    Triax have unveiled the new Saorsat (sat only) box.
    This is the one with the blue display shown on the front. I didn't play with it. I don't know if it really was even connected to a Saorsat dish or not with DiSEqc. It had a hard drive attached. There was no model number on the unit. They won't be available for 4 week or more.

    I saw the TD78 with dual feed. Basically it's a standard 80cm dish with the normal triax multi LNB bracket attached. The unit on show was indoors and had no cables attached.

    It appears as if they seem to think a 60cm prime focus dish will work for Saorsat alone, while an 80cm is needed for both with each LNB offset to the same amount each side. Although we should wait until RTENL announce this.

    They seem to be using a triax branded KA 20GHz LNB,
    More details here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77317127&postcount=42


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    Does this new box have full EPG for DTT & Sat channels?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭zg3409


    Does this new box have full EPG for DTT & Sat channels?

    This thread is about Saorsat not DTT
    This is a question about a combi box. The thread for the combi is here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056557642
    Quick answer no.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭zg3409


    Finally RTENL have released more info. The main discussion is on the Saorsat sticky.

    Regarding single dish feed this is the size recommendations:

    3129xcy.jpg
    Dark green 80cm at prime focus, light green 100cm at focus.

    Regarding dual feed this is the design recommended by RTENL

    196005.jpg
    For a reliable SAORSAT service, because of its frequency and the different locations of satellites, the SAORSAT Ka LNBF must always be directly on the end of the support arm and pointed directly towards the centre of the dish. LNBF’s for other services such and ASTRA / UK Free-To-Air can be offset to the left and slightly elevated, as shown above. With this arrangement services from both satellites can be reliably received.
    If the SAORSAT LNBF is offset away from the centre of the dish (to the right and lower down) the services will not be reliable

    Based on this info
    192053.jpg

    I can't see how the 28.2 LNB will get enough signal. Something does not add up
    In my opinion it would be best to offest the Saorsat LNB a little bit, in order for the 28.2 LNB to see the equivalent of a 60cm dish.

    I would recommend using an 80cm dish and mounting the Saorsat LNB off by 5 degrees, and mounting the 28.2 off by 15 degrees.

    196007.jpg

    The dish shown in the photo looks to be the Inverto 80cm dish (as supplied by onwave) with a special offset arm, which is not yet publically available. It seems to use a washing machine hoseclip type holder for the second LNB

    I would not recommend Inverto/Onwave dish as it seems as if the 28.2 LNB will not get enough signal, and it does not appear to have the ability to offset both LNB's

    The triax TD78 with dual mount seems to be a better solution although for safety an 88/90cm dish would be a safer bet. Alternatively the multifocus dish although it will probably work out more expensive.

    For the extreme South West/North Donegal an even larger dish may be needed.

    By the way the Triax unique dish is no longer manufactured.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭Apogee


    zg3409 wrote: »
    Finally RTENL have released more info. The main discussion is on the Saorsat sticky.

    Dark green 80cm at prime focus, light green 100cm at focus.

    Hard to know what they are basing their size recommendations on, unless they are planning a further drop in signal power or change to FEC? I was testing well within the 100cm zone, and an 80cm dish provides more than enough rain reserve.
    zg3409 wrote: »
    In my opinion it would be best to offest the Saorsat LNB a little bit, in order for the 28.2 LNB to see the equivalent of a 60cm dish.

    I would recommend using an 80cm dish and mounting the Saorsat LNB off by 5 degrees, and mounting the 28.2 off by 15 degrees.

    That would be my feeling too. Putting the Astra LNBF 19 degrees offset doesn't make much sense on an 80cm dish, regardless of whether it's a Ka/Ku or a Ku/Ku setup.

    zg3409 wrote: »
    I would not recommend Inverto/Onwave dish as it seems as if the 28.2 LNB will not get enough signal, and it does not appear to have the ability to offset both LNB's

    The Inverto dish design is quite similar to the Triax. The Triax multibracket may fit the Inverto dish. I will see if I can dig out the Triax bracket at the weekend to see if it will fit the Inverto .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I have my multifeed dish pointed at 16E. I don't know what model Triax it is, but it's 90 wide and 95 tall. Sky/Freesat offset on it hasn't been a problem. I'll do some proper testing with the Inverto LNBF when the Service has officially launched and we know real FEC and EIRP.


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