Hourly rate TEFL?

madziuda · 04-10-2009 2:22pm

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

A I know all classes are different, but in my language school, once students were getting through the textbook and happy with the class, you could do whatever you wanted. Secondary teachers also have a lot more correction. They are correcting written work every night. As a TEFL teacher, you shouldn't normally be correcting long essays every day.

Well, there's TEFL and there's TEFL

If you're teaching regular, general English classes, then yeah, there's not much correction (essays are short and usually quite pleasant to read), but if you're teaching EAP (English for academic purposes) or ESP (English for special purposes) you often end up with correcting 1000/2000-word essays on subjects that are less than gripping

There are courses where regular textbooks are inadequate (as is the case with English as a Second Language courses) so you have to deal some other way. Teaching EAP courses means doing quite a bit of research into a given field (medicine, law, I.T) and familiarising yourself not only with terminology but also professon-specific habits and culture.

That said, such courses are usually better paid (still not 49 Euro though!)

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

Teaching your own language in your own country is hardly ever lucrative.

Couldn't agree more. Can't emphasize the need to do research into the job market enough! How can people go into TEFL without knowing the realities of the profession is beyond me. I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but if someone goes into TEFL blindly without checking the average wages and job opportunities first, he loses the right to complain.

peanuthead · 04-10-2009 3:02pm

madziuda wrote: »

I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but if someone goes into TEFL blindly without checking the average wages and job opportunities first, he loses the right to complain.

Its a great tool to have in your toolbox if you like travelling though. The possibilities are endless!

Also, I did my course, which was a full time one year course, very in depth because I wanted to teach TEFL/TESOL, whatever - this included training in all the Cambridge exams and was a fnatastic course, but I would even recommend a TEFL course for someone who wants to understand their own language a bit more and find answers to why we say what we say. I found it so interesting for that.

madziuda · 04-10-2009 3:11pm

peanuthead wrote: »

Its a great tool to have in your toolbox if you like travelling though. The possibilities are endless!

That's exactly my point. It's a brilliant career for people with wanderlust or those who are ready and willing to settle in a different country. It's even a good part-time job for those in Ireland who are in need of some 'moonlighting'. It is not a good job, scratch that, not a lucrative job if you plan to work full time in Irish language schools. Not anymore.

And you need to know it before you start your TEFL course.

cavanmaniac · 05-10-2009 12:19am

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

You shouldn't really need to 'learn' each grammar point as you teach it, you should already know it pretty well. It's a question of taking a quick look at the grammar book and photocopying/preparing related exercises/games/whatever. Sure, if you want to spend 2 hours prepping a grammar class, that's your business. But I think it's silly to then complain about all the 'preparation time' when you're choosing to spend much longer than necessary on it.

I think that's a highly simplistic take on things to be honest. I taught relative pronouns to upper-ints and although I 'knew' the grammar in that I knew when you use it, getting my head around the rules that apply to it, so I could go into a class and teach it in an infallible and convincing way as I always seek to do, well that took ages. Some grammar is simple enough, the more complex stuff demands thorough and lengthy preparation in my book.

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I'm not being rude at all, but it just seems you aren't cut out for teaching English. We all want money, but it's a lot more than just 'I can make X amount doing X hours somewhere else.' I could make fairly good money working in a factory, but it's soul destroying, boring, unrewarding work with no opportunity to travel or anything. I enjoy teaching, and the prep work isn't a big deal for me. I just went into work an hour early and did it over lunch and photocopied between classes. If I had correcting to do, I did it while watching TV at home. I wasn't constantly thinking 'God I'm not being paid for this, how unfair.' I worked from 2-10 and I had a lie in every morning and went out pretty often after work. The prep time just wasn't a big deal.

So because I'm diligent, thorough and very conscientious, but not willing to accept sub-basement wages, I'm not cut out to be an English teacher? If I had a willingness to work for this wage, but didn't give a toss about the classes or students etc., would I THEN be cut out to be an English teacher?

Look, I'm essentially being playful with that last bit, all I'd expect from any job is a proper, living decent wage as Real Estate explains. I know TEFL isn't lucrative in Ireland, but for the work I'd put into it I think 15ph is criminally low. Five half days a week, throw in prep time, ancillary duties, travelling to and from, plus costs, and it's plain you'd be better off on the dole. If I move to a country where there's equally low wages but a cost of living that means I can afford the basics to live, eat etc., I have no problem not earning 'big' money and saving etc. That's hardly an ostentatious or outrageous expectation, is it? You'd swear I was seeking to be paid in Fabergé eggs or something!:)
Like I said, I have other casual work I can do (not saying where, I want the work myself thanks!

)before emigrating to teach somewhere it's understood that pay should facilitate a basic standard of living. I would have liked to gain some more, fresh experience here in Ireland first but 15ph is personally not good enough for me.

cavanmaniac · 05-10-2009 12:29am

peanuthead wrote: »

Not to sound rude, but if you have as much experience as you say you do, how come you weren't aware that the rate for teaching TEFL is low? It always has been.

Good Luck, and hope we're all good after the last message! lol

You haven't been rude at any stage, no worries there at all.

On the point you make, I have experience of teaching TEFL all those years ago, but apart from short bursts since I have otherwise been working a very different career path and am now returning to TEFL. And nope, there wasn't alot of money in it back then either but it still covered my rent, basic expenses, occasional pissups etc. with a small bit left over every month and what's more, I was more than happy with that, as I would be now.

Appreciate the heads up about the VEC as well. If I land any work with them, I'll hand them back €20 for every hour I work on their generous rates. No point being greedy like

Cheers!

livinginkorea · 05-10-2009 2:25pm

I was hoping to come back to Ireland in a few years when the kid gets older. By that time I will have an MA in TESOL/TEFL and about 10 years experience, mostly in universities. What are my chances I wonder all the time of getting a decent job in a couple of years? Looks pretty slim now with the economy and that.

IzzyWizzy · 05-10-2009 7:01pm

cavanmaniac wrote: »

I think that's a highly simplistic take on things to be honest. I taught relative pronouns to upper-ints and although I 'knew' the grammar in that I knew when you use it, getting my head around the rules that apply to it, so I could go into a class and teach it in an infallible and convincing way as I always seek to do, well that took ages. Some grammar is simple enough, the more complex stuff demands thorough and lengthy preparation in my book.

Of course it's simplistic, this is an internet forum. I'm not going to go into English grammar. I do know what you mean about being able to teach something in a convincing way, but I still wouldn't spend hours on anything. Now, I've had years and years of foreign language study and translation, so understanding and explaining grammar probably comes easily to me, but I worked in a school with 6 other teachers and none of them seemed to spend that long preparing. They weren't sh*tty teachers either, BTW.

So because I'm diligent, thorough and very conscientious, but not willing to accept sub-basement wages, I'm not cut out to be an English teacher? If I had a willingness to work for this wage, but didn't give a toss about the classes or students etc., would I THEN be cut out to be an English teacher?

You know as well as I do what I meant. If you are spending hours and hours preparing while others can prepare well in half the time, then yeah, maybe it isn't for you.

Look, I'm essentially being playful with that last bit, all I'd expect from any job is a proper, living decent wage as Real Estate explains. I know TEFL isn't lucrative in Ireland, but for the work I'd put into it I think 15ph is criminally low. Five half days a week, throw in prep time, ancillary duties, travelling to and from, plus costs, and it's plain you'd be better off on the dole. If I move to a country where there's equally low wages but a cost of living that means I can afford the basics to live, eat etc., I have no problem not earning 'big' money and saving etc. That's hardly an ostentatious or outrageous expectation, is it? You'd swear I was seeking to be paid in Fabergé eggs or something!:)

I agree that 15ph is on the low side. I'm not disputing that, but saying you'd be better off on the dole is crazy. Bringing up travel and lunch costs is just silly. Obviously you have to pay those, even for a minimum wage job in a shop. That's what adults do. Are you seriously trying to tell me you can't afford the 'basics' on a TEFL wage? Your idea of surviving and mine must be very different, as I was pretty comfortable. I paid my rent, bills, food, and probably could have saved a good bit if I hadn't been boozing and eating out all the time.

Like I said, I have other casual work I can do (not saying where, I want the work myself thanks! )before emigrating to teach somewhere it's understood that pay should facilitate a basic standard of living. I would have liked to gain some more, fresh experience here in Ireland first but 15ph is personally not good enough for me.

Well as I said, teaching your own language in your own country is barely ever lucrative. Were you not told that before you did your cert? I'd say you'd be lucky to even get work in Ireland the way things are right now. Any time I took a sick day, there were subs (on the dole usually) clamouring to cover me, so they could impress the boss and get hired. When I left in January, my boss interviewed over 20 people to fill my position, and the girl who replaced me lost her job because of low student numbers. I just don't think you're being realistic here. TEFL was never a well paid business but right now, things are worse than ever in Ireland. There are loads of bright, enthusiastic young teachers who'd jump at the chance of a job. I'm not saying you won't get better wages elsewhere, as I'm sure you will, but you come off as having quite the sense of entitlement here. Saying you would rather be on the dole than work for 15 euro per hour just seems rather lazy to me.

Also, I wouldn't automatically assume you'd be much better off elsewhere. It varies a lot from country to country. My boyfriend has a fairly good deal (free apartment plus around 1000e per month), but he works 45 hours a week, with classes of 15-20 children. I was working around 30 hours a week in Belgium for 24-27 euro an hour - sounds like a lot but I was paying over 50% tax, and the cost of living is similar to Ireland, so I was a LOT worse off!

petethebrick · 06-10-2009 4:54pm

Best money for teaching english here is with the VEC. The pay in private language institutes is pathetic. You do need a degree as well as a TEFL qualification.
I teach 8 hours a week for the VEC and get the part time teachers rate of €45 per hour. So come out with €360 for 10 hours (8 teaching and 2 prep).
I think this is fair pay for the work I do.

cavanmaniac · 06-10-2009 6:19pm

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

Of course it's simplistic, this is an internet forum. I'm not going to go into English grammar. I do know what you mean about being able to teach something in a convincing way, but I still wouldn't spend hours on anything. Now, I've had years and years of foreign language study and translation[....]If you are spending hours and hours preparing while others can prepare well in half the time, then yeah, maybe it isn't for you.

I can assure you it's very much for me and maybe when I've as many years experience as you, then 15ph might just, just at a squeak make both ends meet. But lower paid jobs are not for experienced teachers, the ad I saw requested minimal experience, so I think it's inevitable a rookie teacher gets this gig and ends up working closer to full-time hours per week for crappy, crappy pay. Maybe if the 20 hours were compressed into two and a half days, leaving other valuable week days free to pursue other work, then it might be worth a look. But otherwise I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. It's barely an incentive for an unemployed person to get off the dole.

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to tell me you can't afford the 'basics' on a TEFL wage? Your idea of surviving and mine must be very different, as I was pretty comfortable. I paid my rent, bills, food, and probably could have saved a good bit if I hadn't been boozing and eating out all the time.

Your age profile, career expectations and history, and life situation at that time or now, are very different from mine also I'd imagine.

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

Well as I said, teaching your own language in your own country is barely ever lucrative. Were you not told that before you did your cert?[...], but you come off as having quite the sense of entitlement here. Saying you would rather be on the dole than work for 15 euro per hour just seems rather lazy to me.

Of course I knew it, I only investigated teaching in Ireland to gain a fresher kind of experience before emigrating. I have a "sense of entitlement" alright - to a rate of pay that allows me a basic standard of living, one that rewards my efforts; the crazy, crazy hours I've worked for the last four years (for adequate compensation) give the lie to both your opinions that I'm a. "entitled" and b. "lazy". I can assure you I've put in way more hours at anti-social times than any teacher in Ireland, not a jibe or a brownie point score off anyone, just a fact offered because you see fit in your wisdom to label me as lazy.
I started the thread because I was surprised that the rate was not about 25ph, way lower than even the VEC and ordinary school rates as it should be IMO, but 15ph is just plain taking the piss. The reactions here to my opinions makes me feel like a pop star with a rider requesting a room full of pink puppies before every concert, instead of a basic few bob that'd reflect my work and allow me a reasonable standard of life.
I've been researching foreign markets for ages now and I'm happy that I'll earn enough to keep body and soul together in a few locations abroad, in a way that 15 ph in Ireland would not facilitate.
Beyond that, I'll agree to differ with anyone who feels differently, I'm only repeating myself here now.:(

IzzyWizzy · 07-10-2009 5:40pm

cavanmaniac wrote: »

I can assure you it's very much for me and maybe when I've as many years experience as you, then 15ph might just, just at a squeak make both ends meet. But lower paid jobs are not for experienced teachers, the ad I saw requested minimal experience, so I think it's inevitable a rookie teacher gets this gig and ends up working closer to full-time hours per week for crappy, crappy pay. Maybe if the 20 hours were compressed into two and a half days, leaving other valuable week days free to pursue other work, then it might be worth a look. But otherwise I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. It's barely an incentive for an unemployed person to get off the dole.

I don't have years and years of experience. I meant I had a background in language related study. I prepared a lot during my first week or two teaching in Ireland (mainly because of nerves and not knowing what to expect) but after that I realised I could rely on my knowledge and that I did have the ability to think on the spot. We are going to have to agree to disagree, but I don't think people should be spending hours and hours preparing. Even when I was teaching in Belgium and had to design tailor made courses for special groups, I only spent about an hour on prep for every seven hours teaching, and most of that time was spent making up worksheets and handouts.

Your age profile, career expectations and history, and life situation at that time or now, are very different from mine also I'd imagine.

Most likely. I'm a young female, no kids, who hasn't decided on a career yet. I don't know what your situation is, but most teachers in Ireland seem to be from a similar background to myself. The nature of the job makes it attractive to people who want to travel, are doing postgrad study, are not sure what they want to do, etc. Or people who work as translators or writers and like teaching on the side for some extra cash.

Of course I knew it, I only investigated teaching in Ireland to gain a fresher kind of experience before emigrating. I have a "sense of entitlement" alright - to a rate of pay that allows me a basic standard of living, one that rewards my efforts; the crazy, crazy hours I've worked for the last four years (for adequate compensation) give the lie to both your opinions that I'm a. "entitled" and b. "lazy". I can assure you I've put in way more hours at anti-social times than any teacher in Ireland, not a jibe or a brownie point score off anyone, just a fact offered because you see fit in your wisdom to label me as lazy.

Well, it depends what you mean by a basic standard of living. What do you consider basic?

Anyway, I don't know your personal history or circumstances, but saying you'd rather be on the dole than work in a fairly pleasant (usually!) job comes across as rather entitled, yes. I don't want to go too far off topic, but IMO the dole is meant as a safety net for people who are genuinely destitute, not as an option for people who feel they deserve a bit more money or that they don't feel like putting in a full week's work (30 hours teaching + 10 hours prep, which is being generous). I'm not having a go here, I'm just giving you a different opinion as someone who also 'converted' to TEFL not so long ago.

I started the thread because I was surprised that the rate was not about 25ph, way lower than even the VEC and ordinary school rates as it should be IMO, but 15ph is just plain taking the piss. The reactions here to my opinions makes me feel like a pop star with a rider requesting a room full of pink puppies before every concert, instead of a basic few bob that'd reflect my work and allow me a reasonable standard of life.
I've been researching foreign markets for ages now and I'm happy that I'll earn enough to keep body and soul together in a few locations abroad, in a way that 15 ph in Ireland would not facilitate.
Beyond that, I'll agree to differ with anyone who feels differently, I'm only repeating myself here now.:(

I don't know where you did your training, but we were told not to expect more than around 22ph, and that was before the Irish TEFL industry pretty much collapsed. I went to interviews at quite a few schools and they all paid between 17 and 21ph, usually starting at 17 or 18 for newly qualified teachers. Supply and demand basically - if the student numbers are low and they have scores of teachers applying, they're not going to be paying 30 quid an hour. I agree that 15ph is low, I'm with you on that. I just don't agree that it's not worth even bothering. 15ph or the dole, I'd take 15 ph :P Where are you planning to go, out of interest?

cavanmaniac · 07-10-2009 6:26pm

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I don't know where you did your training, but we were told not to expect more than around 22ph, and that was before the Irish TEFL industry pretty much collapsed. I went to interviews at quite a few schools and they all paid between 17 and 21ph, usually starting at 17 or 18 for newly qualified teachers. Supply and demand basically - if the student numbers are low and they have scores of teachers applying, they're not going to be paying 30 quid an hour. I agree that 15ph is low, I'm with you on that. I just don't agree that it's not worth even bothering. 15ph or the dole, I'd take 15 ph :P Where are you planning to go, out of interest?

Right so, we'll put away the jousting sticks and agree to differ here I think!:D

I'm thinking mainland Europe for a few months and thereafter Asia. You can take your pick of the usual suspects on both continents but I have a leaning towards Czech Republic or Italy at the moment, neither a goldmine but it's 'real teaching' so I'll develop professionally and it's very possible to get by on the local average wage.
All going well I'll strike off for Asia next summer, would love to try Hong Kong or Japan, but there's a few obstacles to surmount in both countries before the dream becomes a reality! Korea, as far as I can gather, is flooded with TEFL teachers because of the economy and most of the jobs that are left seem to be babysitting/kindergarten jobs. That's just what I heard though.

Appreciate everyone's input here by the way, although not fully agreeing with some of it, it was certainly informative.

Hourly rate TEFL?

Comments