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Household charge

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,467 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    So with the introduction of this household tax does this mean that Management companies are now out of business and all housing estates will come under the management of the local authority?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Do people renting have to pay this too? It might just be me but that report seemed to imply that it was only "home-owners" who would be affected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,467 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    Do people renting have to pay this too? It might just be me but that report seemed to imply that it was only "home-owners" who would be affected.

    Well what will happen is that the landlord will increase the rent to cover the cost of this charge.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭Rookster


    Welease wrote: »
    Why should they be adjusted though? People in managed communities still have access to all the other council services (libraries, swimming pools, public lighting etc) and public roads etc.. They pay a fee to a company for some services which one could argue are duplicated, but many are services that the council wouldn't offer either.

    I have to paint my own house, keep my own lawns in order, sort out my own security, provide my own road (~80m driveway), septic tanks, drainage/soak pits etc etc etc..
    Shouldn't all non managed communities get a discount also then?

    Welease
    There should be a knob tax! You would pay the higher rate. "My lawns, My Security and My 80m Driveway".


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Floppybits wrote: »
    So with the introduction of this household tax does this mean that Management companies are now out of business and all housing estates will come under the management of the local authority?

    I doubt it.. The management companies are (as is my understanding) organised by the owners/tenants to provide services which can include services that would never be provided by the councils i.e. general upkeep of buildings, landscaping/lawn maintenance, security, parking control etc.

    The tenants could look for a reduction in management charges if they felt that some services were no longer be required.. but its a private contract between the residents and the management company and would need to be driven by the residents themselves.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    Rookster wrote: »
    Welease
    There should be a knob tax! You would pay the higher rate. "My lawns, My Security and My 80m Driveway".

    There should be a begrudgery tax, the country would be out of recession in no time :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Rookster wrote: »
    Welease
    There should be a knob tax! You would pay the higher rate. "My lawns, My Security and My 80m Driveway".

    Nice personal abuse..

    The point is that any private owners have to pay personally for services which management companies provide for their residents.. I'd imagine any residents association could remove their management company, and provide the services themselves if they so wished (similar to a private house owner), but it probably would not be practical to do so hence their continued existence.

    Any house owner with a garden has to pay for their lawn upkeep.. this is a service which (in general) a management company would contract out an charge residents for..
    Any house owner who doesn't live in a lit street/estate (i.e. many people out in the countryside) had to pay privately for security lighting etc, which a management company would charge customer for providing..
    and finally why is the road on a private managed community any different from the access road I need to pay for and upkeep to get to my front door?

    And btw.. my house didnt cost much more than an apartment in Dublin, and considerably less than some 3 bed semi's were going for.. So spare me the "big I am" arguement..


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,028 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Rookster wrote: »
    Welease
    There should be a knob tax! You would pay the higher rate. "My lawns, My Security and My 80m Driveway".

    Lay off the personal abuse.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    pog it wrote: »
    Richard Boyd Barrett
    Whoops. Listen, although there may well be civil strife before this is over, the trots will never succeed in dragging this country back to the 19th century.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭seanin4711


    We are on our knees taxpayers that is.
    How much more flogging can we take. Not much.
    They can't lock up all of us!
    Not much difference from new government than old one.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭Daegerty


    Civil strife is always just around the corner until everyone decides Enda or Biffo or who ever is just a salt of the earth lad and he has his hands tied in a difficult situation and ah sure things aren't so bad after all

    And then a huge backlash against the people who actually got up off their arse to protest. Only scumbags, hippies and relentless complainers who won't "man up" and take it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    We are on our knees taxpayers that is.
    How much more flogging can we take. Not much.

    Ochone, ochone! As Colm Rapple pointed out last week taxes in Ireland are less than in 2000, and that was considered a good year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Ochone, ochone! As Colm Rapple pointed out last week taxes in Ireland are less than in 2000, and that was considered a good year.
    well not for me, if i calculate all taxes including stealth taxes, USI, payment on my pension fund then its a resounding NO


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Good loser


    The abolition of rates in 1978 by FF was verging on the irresponsibly criminal. An intensely, stupid, election promise which they implemented in full. If they even had the wit to leave it at £10 per house as they did with the car tax.

    My recollection was that before the FF election promise FG/Labour had commenced a four year programme of abolition i.e. they were to abolish rates by four yearly instalments and had taken off the first 25%.
    Our housing bubble would have been nothing like it was if there had been rates; think if FF had the wit to (even) threaten their reintroduction in 2004 - 2007.

    Effectively rates are a wealth tax; historically they were used for revenue raising before income/company taxation. The theory is that if a person can afford to live in a property of a certain value it identifies them as being capable of paying a certain level of taxation; if values are accurately ascertained the level of tax will be proportionate - thus if your house is twice as valuable as your neighbours you should pay twice the rates. This is why under no circumstances should social welfare recipients be exempted; it makes no more sense than exempting them from car tax - another wealth tax.

    The UK reliefs mentioned above seem reasonable and - specifically for Ireland now - a 5/10 year reducing relief may be necessary for those in serious mortgage arrears.

    The occupier rather than owner must be the responsible person in the first instance; by paying less rent they can offset the burden onto the property/wealth owner.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,834 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    What struck me was the list of people who would be excluded. Once again it is the middle class worker who is hit up for more tax, while the indolent carry on as normal.
    the first thing i thought of when i heard about this!
    Originally Posted by hinault
    And the CP deal remains in situ and untouched.

    We really are in a banana republic.

    The biggest spending departments social welfare and health.
    the second thing i thought of when i heard about this!

    how pathetically predictable! tell me, will the pensioners, those on dole etc, will they actually have to pay any of these charges? or is it just the morons who go out and work?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Daegerty wrote: »
    And then a huge backlash against the people who actually got up off their arse to protest. Only scumbags, hippies and relentless complainers who won't "man up" and take it.
    And trots. Mostly trots. In fact pretty much all trots. Basically if the trots went away the rest of us could have a good honest protest.
    Good loser wrote: »
    The occupier rather than owner must be the responsible person in the first instance; by paying less rent they can offset the burden onto the property/wealth owner.
    So you are not only turning everyone into a permanent tenant, you're penalising actual tenants. The country did just fine without rates for decades, just because it's done in the UK doesn't mean we have to ape their bad ideas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭Mizu_Ger


    Welease wrote: »
    I doubt it.. The management companies are (as is my understanding) organised by the owners/tenants to provide services which can include services that would never be provided by the councils i.e. general upkeep of buildings, landscaping/lawn maintenance, security, parking control etc.

    The tenants could look for a reduction in management charges if they felt that some services were no longer be required.. but its a private contract between the residents and the management company and would need to be driven by the residents themselves.

    The management company in my estate cover the cost of lighting in public areas, landscaping (cutting grass in public areas and picking up an rubbish), insurance in public areas. They also provide for bins and structural upkeep for people in apartments, but they pay extra for this. I'm not sure what other services the council would provide in my (or any) estate.

    At the moment I pay for the following:

    Electricity
    Gas
    Road Tax
    Bins
    TV Licence
    and from next year, Water.

    What's left? There's no swimming pool in my town. We do have a small library, and a small green area with a play ground, but that's about it. I don't mind paying for these, but it would be a very small amount when spread across the whole community.

    What exactly are the services that the local authority provide? I would like to see a list (official) of these services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Mizu_Ger wrote: »
    The management company in my estate cover the cost of lighting in public areas, landscaping (cutting grass in public areas and picking up an rubbish), insurance in public areas. They also provide for bins and structural upkeep for people in apartments, but they pay extra for this. I'm not sure what other services the council would provide in my (or any) estate.

    At the moment I pay for the following:

    Electricity
    Gas
    Road Tax
    Bins
    TV Licence
    and from next year, Water.

    What's left? There's no swimming pool in my town. We do have a small library, and a small green area with a play ground, but that's about it. I don't mind paying for these, but it would be a very small amount when spread across the whole community.

    What exactly are the services that the local authority provide? I would like to see a list (official) of these services.

    But that's my point.. I have to pay privately also for all those services.. So I fail to see why people are making the argument that people who pay management committee's should get a discount..




  • 1-The government would want to sort out their strategy for breaking news to the public, and all get singing off the same hymn sheet. The recent breakdowns in communication have been at the least embarrassing and undermining, and at most genuinely worrying for already stressed taxpayers who have no clarity on what's going to happen. Nobody in government seems to have a definitive clue what the party line is on this and many other issues, and it's damaging confidence.

    2-A property tax by any other name is still a property tax. Unfair and inequitable taxation rules in ireland. Imagine a first time buyer who bought at the top of the boom and is now in negative equity. They have a property they probably can't afford, don't want, can't sell, were over leveraged on by greedy banks, and were advised to buy by a crooked, incompetent government. Now the next government wants to slap another charge on their home to pay for the consequences of all the same greed by the bankers and politicians who remain unpunished to this day? It's disgusting.

    3-Another easy option, blunt instrument, flat rate charge, that's yet another example of dodging the tough decisions and hitting everybody with the same stick. Different properties in different areas in different cities and under different public or private management schemes should all be taxed differently depending on individual situations, but that would be far too much work and take far too long for a bloated public service to figure out, so instead it's "let's just slap another levy on people and watch the money roll in, and increase it by 50 or 100 euro every time the budget rolls around, once they've gotten used to it". Where the hell do they think people are going to find the money for this?

    4-And "ring fencing"?? My Arse. I've heard it so many times that i just don't believe it. This will go straight into the exchequer and have at most a fraction of it's total take spent on the infrastructure and local services it was ostensibly set up to fund, just like road tax, TV licence, water tax, and any number of other bloody charges. And besides, if this is to pay for local government costs, what the bloody hell am i paying PAYE for? The IMF? Corrupt Bankers? Senior Bondholders who don't want to lie in the bed they made for themselves?

    Seriously, the reason for these taxes and charges, whether they're fair or unfair, is a different argument, but really, how in the name of god do they expect to have growth in the retail and consumer driven economy if they are taxing and charging ordinary workers to the brink of poverty? It's the modern equivalent of CJ Haughey trying to tax his way out of a recession in the 1980's and instead stagnating our economy for a decade and fuelling record emigration. It's not going to work.

    People need to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel. They need hope in order to stay the course, and need to be able to see an improvement, even a small one, to make their sacrifices worthwhile. If you're just working to pay the taxman and stay on your feet, and no matter what you do you're getting nowhere and there's always another tax or a charge around the corner to knock you on your back, where's the incentive not to just get the hell out and leave it all to all the other poor saps and go in search of a better life?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,467 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Welease wrote: »
    But that's my point.. I have to pay privately also for all those services.. So I fail to see why people are making the argument that people who pay management committee's should get a discount..

    Welease, thats the thing if you are paying this household tax, is that not suppose to cover the costs that you are currently paying privately to a management company for? So when it does come in either Management companies are going to have to cut their bills because they will no longer have to pay for a lot of services, or else the local council will take over the estate and look after the management of the estate.

    If that is not the case they what is the household tax for?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Floppybits wrote: »
    Welease, thats the thing if you are paying this household tax, is that not suppose to cover the costs that you are currently paying privately to a management company for? So when it does come in either Management companies are going to have to cut their bills because they will no longer have to pay for a lot of services, or else the local council will take over the estate and look after the management of the estate.

    If that is not the case they what is the household tax for?

    My understanding is that the household tax is being introduced because
    a) We are broke, and need more revenue
    b) Council funding has/will be cut.. So this will be used make up the shortfall..

    It has nothing to do with what people pay Management Companies for (although there is some overlap where council funding benefits). A household tax does not mean that those communities will become automatically adopted by councils. It just means that you will be getting an extra tax (or charge) in order to fund councils etc... The same as everyone else.

    It will be much the same as any other tax you pay, it doesn't necessarily mean you get any direct benefit. Anyone outside Dublin pays but won't benefit from the Dart, Luas, M50 etc etc etc.

    To go back to my point, I don't pay a management company, but neither do I have any street lighting, and I have to pay for my own bins, sewerage, property upkeep, security, access etc.. The same as any private householder.. If discounts were applied to anyone who had to pay for those services, then nobody would be paying any household tax.. We all pay those, albeit either directly or through management companies (and obviously some areas get more (street lighting for example) and some get less).

    I'm not saying I support the tax.. I am just stating I don't understand the argument that those who pay management companies should be immune while those who pay for services privately should be hit for the full amount. That argument doesn't make sense to me, both parties pay for services not provided by the council.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 Alastriona73


    Just wondering what the household charge is meant to cover? I live in the country so have my own water supply, own sewage disposal, no street lighting, take my own waste to the landfill, no local facilities that are funded by or maintained by the local government so I assume I don't have to pay? Or is this really just a property tax by another name rather than a tax for services provided?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    There's no reason those who pay management fees should be omitted from this. But what it does created is a situation where management companies should be completely disbanded and the council take every estate and apartment block in hand. Otherwise those who live in places that are looked after by management companies are paying twice over. And given the exorbitant rate many of those companies charge, I'd imagine the residents would be happier to to pay this "household charge".

    As I said earlier, they need to just say it like it is - another tax, because we need the money. Stop giving it mickey mouse names and trying to find reasons for it. We're broke, we owe huge bills and our income is not big enough. We need people to pay more tax to pay the bills. That's what it is in black and white.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    So you are not only turning everyone into a permanent tenant, you're penalising actual tenants. The country did just fine without rates for decades, just because it's done in the UK doesn't mean we have to ape their bad ideas.

    Our track record tends to show that what they do in the UK, our leaders like to adopt enthusiastically. Perish the thought that they might look beyond the UK, around Europe for ideas for a better system for running the country (on all fronts). We tend to be most enthusiastic about the UK policies that are quite obviously a disaster. Coz, you know, if you keep doing the same things as another country over and over again, regardless of the fact that they don't work out in that country, surely at some stage they'll be successful here - won't they??:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Just wondering what the household charge is meant to cover? I live in the country so have my own water supply, own sewage disposal, no street lighting, take my own waste to the landfill, no local facilities that are funded by or maintained by the local government so I assume I don't have to pay? Or is this really just a property tax by another name rather than a tax for services provided?

    That's exactly my understanding.. A proper property tax is not possible at present, because we don't have a registry of property values etc, and we have not decided on a way to proceed..

    So in the interim a global charge will be applied to make up for the tax revenue shortfall (it is a tax for services provided, but those services are on a national level not what you specifically consume).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 Alastriona73


    Welease wrote: »
    That's exactly my understanding.. A proper property tax is not possible at present, because we don't have a registry of property values etc, and we have not decided on a way to proceed..

    So in the interim a global charge will be applied to make up for the tax revenue shortfall (it is a tax for services provided, but those services are on a national level not what you specifically consume).

    I will bitterly resist paying for services I am not getting. It's getting completely out of hand at this stage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    dan_d wrote: »
    There's no reason those who pay management fees should be omitted from this. But what it does created is a situation where management companies should be completely disbanded and the council take every estate and apartment block in hand. Otherwise those who live in places that are looked after by management companies are paying twice over. And given the exorbitant rate many of those companies charge, I'd imagine the residents would be happier to to pay this "household charge".

    I don't think it will be as simple as that..If all of those areas were adopted the costs to the council would go through the roof.. which would mean another shortfall, and the household charge would have to be drastically increased to cover.. It's likely the councils will want to avoid this..

    On the other hand, I still don't get why people think they are paying twice.. Paying twice for what? The road may be adopted, and maybe the sewerage.. but buildings upkeep, insurance, bins, parking facilities, security, non street lighting, landscaping/garden tending (in private areas) etc etc etc. are not provided by the council anyway.. to anyone.. I imagine a large part of the fees to management companies cover those costs, costs were are paid privately by private house owners.
    dan_d wrote: »
    As I said earlier, they need to just say it like it is - another tax, because we need the money. Stop giving it mickey mouse names and trying to find reasons for it. We're broke, we owe huge bills and our income is not big enough. We need people to pay more tax to pay the bills. That's what it is in black and white.

    Agreed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    I will bitterly resist paying for services I am not getting. It's getting completely out of hand at this stage.

    Well that's a personal choice.. but you already pay for disability services, services for the elderly, services for travellers, services for the blind, environmental services, library services, swimming pools, social housing, infrastructure services, social welfare, parking attendants, public toilets, youth services, sports services etc etc etc..

    I doubt you use every one of those services ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭careca11


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0531/household_charge.html

    WTF is this? The provision of local services. The council refuse to take over my estate and I pay for my own bins. Exactly what services will I be getting?


    folks .....ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS COLLECTIVELY REFUSE TO PAY IT................UNITED WE STAND


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 Alastriona73


    Welease wrote: »
    Well that's a personal choice.. but you already pay for disability services, services for the elderly, services for travellers, services for the blind, environmental services, library services, swimming pools, social housing, infrastructure services, social welfare, parking attendants, public toilets, youth services, sports services etc etc etc..

    I doubt you use every one of those services ;)

    Well actually I do pay tax to support services for the elderly/disabled/social welfare/health etc and will happily do so even if I currently do not avail of these services. (I may have to in the future). But I have a problem with paying for services I will never have access to and subsidising others who get the services and can afford to pay for them. Not everyone living in the towns or cities is poor you know.


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